VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: doonboggle on April 06, 2010, 11:22:40 pm
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Regarding my thread ... http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=25118.0 ...
can someone advise how I might be able to determine what version the present head is ...
if still attached and bolted down to block ...
without having to take off first?
Is there a way?
A fellow has offered me one, but as the thread revealed, I need to know which one I have ...
in order to know if the one offered will work for me.
Thanks
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I believe ALL 11mm are mechanical lifters and will not have 2 drains "humps" up front...only one in the center.
The 12mm will all have the triple square bolts and the 11mm are hex drive.
*Edit* To see that look through the valve cover oil fill or take the valve cover off.
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Thanks. Don't mean to be a pest; am not a mechanic but learning every day ... as Benny Hill used to say on TV.
Regarding "2 drains "humps" up front" ... can you provide a bit more detail please. By 'up front', are you are referring to where the various sprockets and belts are?
Thanks
I believe ALL 11mm are mechanical lifters and will not have 2 drains "humps" up front...only one in the center.
The 12mm will all have the triple square bolts and the 11mm are hex drive.
*Edit* To see that look through the valve cover oil fill or take the valve cover off.
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with both side by side of each other it is obvious, the 12mm bolt holes are bigger, and they are recessed farther into the top of the head.
with only one in front of you, it would be hard to tell if you had never seen them side by side.
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so how do you tell the difference between a 12mm hydro and 12mm mech head? :)
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(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/126/l_60ea6d15bcbf4e289b39ca6ed2a7aabc.jpg)
This is a picture of my Hydro. lifter head. You can see the 2 holes at the top those are the oil drains. The little one on the left won't be there on a mech head. The "humps" are when you are looking at it this way. The little hump by #2 injector isn't there on a Mech. head.
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/148/l_a451390413a840258d1be1f0f86da217.jpg)
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So it wasn't as confusing 2 posts.
Here is my mech head only hole and one "hump". Imagine it the other way.
(http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/33/l_5bbc1c17952a44938ca9aaac0bb0a441.jpg)
Here is another way of looking at it :D
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k286/coolairvw/hm1.jpg)
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GREAT!! That helped tremendously. Glad that you corrected me; front for me was at the sprocket end; for you as one looks at the engine when in the bay.
Looked at mine, and I only have the large 'hump' ... thus mechanical.
Now I have to figure out how to tell if it has the 11mm versus the 12mm bolts.
Thanks again for the image ! ! !
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/126/l_60ea6d15bcbf4e289b39ca6ed2a7aabc.jpg)
This is a picture of my Hydro. lifter head. You can see the 2 holes at the top those are the oil drains. The little one on the left won't be there on a mech head. The "humps" are when you are looking at it this way. The little hump by #2 injector isn't there on a Mech. head.
(http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/148/l_a451390413a840258d1be1f0f86da217.jpg)
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what year is the engine supposed to be?
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The truck is a 1981; but do not know the history ... and former German (Nazi) owner is deceased.
Part number on 'front' of head is ... 068103373F ... if that helps any.
what year is the engine supposed to be?
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The engine code may help more. It is located under the coolant port on the head between #3 and #4 cylinders.
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seems like everyone with limited VW knowledge, always tells me the casting number on the head instead of the actual engine code. lol
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FWIW ... we all had a starting point from zero....
seems like everyone with limited VW knowledge, always tells me the casting number on the head instead of the actual engine code. lol
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don't mind Rabbit on Roids, he often speaks without thinking, and he rarely means to be offensive...
the head casting number would be helpful if we knew how to decipher it, but engine code is easier(as we all know what it means)
-Owen
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i was simply pointing out a fact. you are not the first one to think the head casting number is some sort of magical code to tell you everything about the engine. for all we know, it might be, but like owen said, engine code is more definitive. and i meant nothing by what i said to you about not knowing your engine code. i was not trying to be mean or make you feel bad/stupid. usually i try and be nice on this forum. all i was doing was pointing out the simple fact that the casting number is more often than not, mistaken for the engine code by people who do not intimately know VW engines. i dont expect everyone to know everything about what they own. although it would make things a hell of alot easier. people shuold have to atleast have to pass a test on how to check fluids, change their oil, change a flat, basic stuff like that, either to buy a car, or to posses a drivers license. i think its funny how many people there are that dont check there fluids till lights and buzzers on the dash start going off. lol
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Well ... to be honest ... after 55 years of driving ... began at age 14 ... I very diligtntly like you touch upon, check everything almost any time we go anywhere; particularly trips out of town. I offer a 'gotcha' apologiy for not knowing that about that number ... especially since it is hidden behind the other components.
But as Benny Hill from England used to say on TV some decades ago ... "Learning all the time!"
i was simply pointing out a fact. you are not the first one to think the head casting number is some sort of magical code to tell you everything about the engine. for all we know, it might be, but like owen said, engine code is more definitive. and i meant nothing by what i said to you about not knowing your engine code. i was not trying to be mean or make you feel bad/stupid. usually i try and be nice on this forum. all i was doing was pointing out the simple fact that the casting number is more often than not, mistaken for the engine code by people who do not intimately know VW engines. i dont expect everyone to know everything about what they own. although it would make things a hell of alot easier. people shuold have to atleast have to pass a test on how to check fluids, change their oil, change a flat, basic stuff like that, either to buy a car, or to posses a drivers license. i think its funny how many people there are that dont check there fluids till lights and buzzers on the dash start going off. lol
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Thanks. I'll try to get the stuff off so that I can decipher the number.
Do recall having read from another forum someone saying that all 1981 engines had the 11mm bolts. Is that plausible any?
don't mind Rabbit on Roids, he often speaks without thinking, and he rarely means to be offensive...
the head casting number would be helpful if we knew how to decipher it, but engine code is easier(as we all know what it means)
-Owen
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its alright, no apologies needed. but none of us on this board knows how to read the number, or what it means. if anyone does know, they havent let us in on it. thats why i said the code on the head is almost useless.
and i really wasnt refering to you about the having to pass a test on your car. just people in general. if you buy a brand new car, you should have to take a class on how to do most basic maintenance on it.
i can change a flat tire in about 10 mins. thats from the time it goes flat to back on the road driving again. most people, it takes them longer than 10 minutes to locate the jack and lug wrench. lol.
i laugh hard every time someone tells me that they dont know how to change a flat. i feel like every driver on the road should by law, have to know how to change a flat tire. i dont know how many times i have seen a half dozen idiots standing around a car with a flat on the side of the freeway.
one of them has the jack, one has the lug wrench, and the other one has the spare, but everyone of them has an equally puzzled look on their faces. "CRAP, none of us know how to change a tire, call a tow truck!" and then it turns into a big traffic jam on the freeway, everybody driving by has to see whats goin on.
and as for ALL 81 engines being 11mm bolts, not so. 81 was the change over year. some were 11mm, some were 12mm.
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Hope this is all of it. Really difficult to see way back behind the ip pipes, etc..
049251 with the vw 'star' at the end.
The engine code may help more. It is located under the coolant port on the head between #3 and #4 cylinders.
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the engine code should start with two letters, which are the important part.
JP, MF, etc... sometimes it is really hard to see, but the numbers alone don't tell much
sorry...
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Hope this is all of it. Really difficult to see way back behind the ip pipes, etc..
049251 with the vw 'star' at the end.
The engine code may help more. It is located under the coolant port on the head between #3 and #4 cylinders.
the code is on the block, right under the head. its right at the top edge of the block. its easy enough to see, you just gotta wipe it clean, then get your head close enough to see it. prolly gonna need a flash light too.
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Thankfully for a wife who does not have a fused spine, and a little bit better vision, we got it...
CS049251 we think... with the vw star in front and behind.
the engine code should start with two letters, which are the important part.
JP, MF, etc... sometimes it is really hard to see, but the numbers alone don't tell much
sorry...
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Yeah what rig is this outa!!!! That's a very abnormal code is why.
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looks like CS came in the type-2(bus)
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The truck is a 1981; but do not know the history ... and former German (Nazi) owner is deceased.
Part number on 'front' of head is ... 068103373F ... if that helps any.
Yeah what rig is this outa!!!! That's a very abnormal code is why.
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Andrew gets the money, http://www.busdepot.com/links.jsp (http://www.busdepot.com/links.jsp) about a 3rd of the way down under Identifying Engine Codes it says "CS 1982-84 Vanagon, 1.6 liter, Diesel".
So you have a vanagon engine in a caddy.
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WOW!
OUTSTANDING!
Guess the old fellow had an engine failure at one time or another.
Any idea then whether or not it is a 11mm or 12mm version ... my post purpose?
Thanks
Andrew gets the money, http://www.busdepot.com/links.jsp (http://www.busdepot.com/links.jsp) about a 3rd of the way down under Identifying Engine Codes it says "CS 1982-84 Vanagon, 1.6 liter, Diesel".
So you have a vanagon engine in a caddy.
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Plan to remove the cover again then.
As a 'rookie', what would I be looking for once it's off?
Are the bolts there; and if so, presume a simple seeing is the 12mm socket fits???
As a clue ... and guidance ... if this is the way, how many bolts would I be looking for?
As I mentioned previously, almost all of the CS engines were 12mm, but a very few early ones were 11mm. You'd have to look under the valve cover to see.
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its the shank of the head bolt being referenced to 11mm or 12mm.
if it has 12mm head bolts the heads of the bolts will take a triple square bit(looks like a CV joint bolt head, just bigger)
if it has 11mm bolts, and has never had the head removed before the bolt heads will use an allen wrench.
if the head has been removed before(and is 11mm), the bolts could be allen or triple square, as gasser bolts fit, and are often used upon reassembly.
if you are unsure about which bolts you find, post a pic, and we can help you identify what head it is.
-Owen
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Have valve cover off. Here is image...
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/doonboggle/head001.jpg)
The nuts are 13mm, and there are 10 of them.
Down in the pit are 10 things that have oil in the top. I took a screwdriver and tried to slosh out as much as I can, but see no indication (so far) of any allen wrench or other tool.
What am I doing wrong?
Thanks
its the shank of the head bolt being referenced to 11mm or 12mm.
if it has 12mm head bolts the heads of the bolts will take a triple square bit(looks like a CV joint bolt head, just bigger)
if it has 11mm bolts, and has never had the head removed before the bolt heads will use an allen wrench.
if the head has been removed before(and is 11mm), the bolts could be allen or triple square, as gasser bolts fit, and are often used upon reassembly.
if you are unsure about which bolts you find, post a pic, and we can help you identify what head it is.
-Owen
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that looks like an 11mm head to me(but others will confirm that if so)
the head bolts(the ones with oil in the tops) look like they are allen headed from here, and they do not appear to be recessed into the head the way that a 12mm head would be.
so I will give a tentative, "thats an 11mm head"
-Owen
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I just took some tissue and soaked up the oil.
Now see a 12 indent (recessed) socket hole.
Using my torx set I find that the 12955 one, with 6 indents, fits ... meaning it is a recessed head.
The '12' in the size number is common to the whole set, so am sure it does not indicate the head as a 12mm one.
Hope someone knows more about conversion for this socket than I do.
that looks like an 11mm head to me(but others will confirm that if so)
the head bolts(the ones with oil in the tops) look like they are allen headed from here, and they do not appear to be recessed into the head the way that a 12mm head would be.
so I will give a tentative, "thats an 11mm head"
-Owen
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ok, so with triple square bolt heads, it can either an 11 or a 12mm head(as there are triple square 11mm head bolts as well as 12)
it still looks like the bolt heads are sitting proud enough to indicate that it is an 11mm and not a 12.
but again, others will chime in soon too.
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What size triple square are the 11mm triple square? Sucks if they are the same. I have no clue what head it is now, but I will say 12mm just cause of the triple squares and andrew saying not many 11mm blocks in that line. Are you going to pull the head and tell us?
The other nuts you are talking about just hold the cam caps down...don't remove them.
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triple square 11mm bolts are the same size head, and take the same tool :-\
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Have valve cover off. Here is image...
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/doonboggle/head001.jpg)
In the pic it looks like 12mm 'triple-square' bolts (real name of this bolt type is "XZN") and the (mid-'81-on) large central oil drain hole to me... just as Andrew mentioned. By end of '81, most all 'new' VW diesels here in Can/US had 12mm "stretch" bolts.
IIRC diesel Vanagons weren't sold here until late 1982. Obviously someone did a bit of parts swapping to even mount that "CS" in your Caddy: oil pan, pump pickup, engine mounts, maybe pump swap, etc.
J.R.
SoCal
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I just took some tissue and soaked up the oil.
Now see a 12 indent (recessed) socket hole.
Using my torx set I find that the 12955 one, with 6 indents, fits ... meaning it is a recessed head.
The '12' in the size number is common to the whole set, so am sure it does not indicate the head as a 12mm one.
Hope someone knows more about conversion for this socket than I do.
That "55" in your tool number would mean it's a T55, it's what I used when I put my head back on. I DON'T recommend using it though, I rounded one head bolt out doing the last 1/4 turn and I ain't looking forward to trying to undo it.
As ROR said though that doesn't tell you what you got, afaik the only way to know is to pull a bolt out and measure it.
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ok, here we go.
the 12mm head has pockets machined in the casting so the bolts sit lower in the head, you can see that in this pic
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1300006.jpg)
look at the center front bolt hole, see how it is cut down into the head casting?
the washer will sit below the lip machined into the casting.
the 11mm heads do not have the bolt holes machined deeper like this, so the washer and bolt head will sit on top of the casting.
the pic you posted looks like the washer is sitting on top of the casting, not in a pocket machined in it.
so I believe that you have an 11mm head that had gasser head bolts installed in it during a rebuild(which would account for the triple square bolt heads)
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Sorry fellows, but I am lost by all the comments. I am a total novice to this and have never removed an engine head, let alone just one of the bolts.
What I understand is this is an unknown head relative to the bolts. I've tried to identify them as best I can; 12 point that a T55 (6-point) TORX socket fits into. Came across a metric web page that indicates a T55 TORX is 11.22mm.
Don't know if that clears it up any.
In any case, if the only sure way to ascertain is to pull one of the bolts out, I need some guidance. I really need to know this so that I can advise the fellow who has offered a head to me, for free, which version I need. He has several heads for choosing.
My questions are ...
First, to be upfront, I have never removed a head, or even a head bolt.
If I remove one to ascertain if it is 11 or 12mm, is it a matter of simply backing it out?
Once identified, can I simply reinstall it?
Secondly, what should I use to remove it, if the 6-point TORX is not a good idea ... keeping in mind that the recessed head has the 12-point indents?
Last, if I do this, will it harm or screw up anything in the rest of the engine by just taking it out for identifying?
At this stage the only thing I feel comfortable with is having identified it as a mechanical lifter version, out of a 1982 Vanwagon.
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That "55" in your tool number would mean it's a T55, it's what I used when I put my head back on. I DON'T recommend using it though, I rounded one head bolt out doing the last 1/4 turn and I ain't looking forward to trying to undo it.
Air Chisel...ask me how I know :-[
Back to the bolt question. I wouldn't use the torx for the reason above. Use this style (http://base0.googlehosted.com/base_media?q=http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/wmr-w1395_w.jpg&size=19&dhm=92549a87&hl=en)
and they can be ordered from napa or any tool van, but are here too http://www.google.com/products?q=12mm+triple+square&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=6NC9S7GgH4H88AbtlujNCA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQrQQwAw (http://www.google.com/products?q=12mm+triple+square&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=6NC9S7GgH4H88AbtlujNCA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQrQQwAw)
I have heard of people that took one out and put it back in, but have only done it on the one that I had to take out with an air chisel.
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Unfortunately my little camera does not take a good usable close up, so will try to respond as best I can.
If I understand correctly, sounds like the bolt heads of your head are recessed 'possibly' down into the mounting hole areas. In looking at mine, they 'appear' to be fully exposed and, not having removed one yet, 'seems' to have a slight over-sized thick washer beneath the head. Thusly, sounds ... based on your analysis ... that it is a 11mm version .
But understanding that it is critical, I recognize that the only way to tell is to remove a bolt for inspection. So looks like I'm gonna go to our local NAPA or KRAGEN to see if I can get a 12-point ('triple square') socket that will fit.
I posted last nite this, so will re-ask somewhat differently.
If I remove #5 bolt, will that screw up anything by not being in numerical sequence. Read in Bentley that, during re-install, to follow a prescribed number sequence.
Then, to restate last posting, in removing this bolt, am I loosening something inside the engine that will 'drop' down, etc.?
Thanks for all the help EVERYONE !!!
Am embarrassed to be so stupid among all this knowledge.
ok, here we go.
the 12mm head has pockets machined in the casting so the bolts sit lower in the head, you can see that in this pic
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee139/truckinwagen/G60%20diesel%20getting%20it%20to%20run/P1300006.jpg)
look at the center front bolt hole, see how it is cut down into the head casting?
the washer will sit below the lip machined into the casting.
the 11mm heads do not have the bolt holes machined deeper like this, so the washer and bolt head will sit on top of the casting.
the pic you posted looks like the washer is sitting on top of the casting, not in a pocket machined in it.
so I believe that you have an 11mm head that had gasser head bolts installed in it during a rebuild(which would account for the triple square bolt heads)
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Well ... just returned from Kragen and NAPA ... with nothing in hand to remove the bolt.
So 'back to the drawing board'.....
What do the rest of you fellows use to remove the bolts?
But understanding that it is critical, I recognize that the only way to tell is to remove a bolt for inspection. So looks like I'm gonna go to our local NAPA or KRAGEN to see if I can get a 12-point ('triple square') socket that will fit.
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NOPE!
Just came from there.
The 'manager' did not even understand what I needed ... and had to take my TORX T55 to show him the similarity.
Neither did NAPA ... and same 'dumb' in-store staff.
Neither did Carquest; same story.
Even emailed their customer support link yesterday and asked a question about the TORX set ... by brand name ... I bought recently.
The fellow responded ... "We don't carry that brand." ... yet, no more than 3 months ago, I bought the set for 67.00 ... & even as recent as today, visited their display wall where the parts were well mounted.
I thought there was a business decline in America these days.
Seems not for the autoparts stores.
Go figure....
Kragen, Shucks, Checker, O'Reiley's, etc... all carry the Power Built brand and typically have the tripe-square set on the shelf.
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http://www.google.com/products?q=12mm+triple+square&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=6NC9S7GgH4H88AbtlujNCA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQrQQwAw (http://www.google.com/products?q=12mm+triple+square&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=6NC9S7GgH4H88AbtlujNCA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQrQQwAw)
you could pay shipping and get it fast...the second ones down are only $4
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so after all this have we confirmed that 11mm sit above the head surface where as 12mm are recessed in to it? all 11mm and 12mm? or only select few?
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Not yet. That comes after the proper tool to extract one is delivered so that it can be determined to be a 11 or 12mm version.
The recess or non-recess I don't believe has been focused on. In my case, I just want to know what version of bolt I have.
so after all this have we confirmed that 11mm sit above the head surface where as 12mm are recessed in to it? all 11mm and 12mm? or only select few?
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same here bro. i just blew a hg.. need to pull the head as well. and order new bolts
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better brains than mine have already commented on this but to me at least one of these bolts looks to have six sides like a hex head???
the hex heads on 11 mm headbolts use a 10 mm allen style bit.
373 F heads can be either 11 or 12 mm apparently (so as to maximize confusion).
i picked up a 10 mm allen head socket at Sears for a 11 mm headbolt and a triple square (for a 12 mm bolt on a different head) and both held up really well...Autozone also sells triple squares but they are really soft. Sears steel is better (made in USA!)
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Am presently waiting on delivery of the 8- piece (http://www.restockit.com/8-piece-xzn-set-%28vimxzn100%29.html (http://www.restockit.com/8-piece-xzn-set-%28vimxzn100%29.html)) kit ordered last nite.
Searched for hours and this one seemed to be the best offer, with qood quality, I could find.
Did not want all 8 ... but by the time that the 2 I wanted were ordered, and having to pay shipping, would be right at their price almost ... so decilded to go for the whole kitten kaboodle.
Plus, along with free shipping, they also offered an additionsl 5% discount ... and no, I do not own any of their stock ... just posting the order info.
same here bro. i just blew a hg.. need to pull the head as well. and order new bolts
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If you're chatting about my image, they have the 12-point heads. This was the focus the last couple of days trying to determine the proper removal tool.
TORX was not recommended; I had one also that I initially commented on; and was considering getting the 12-point version of TORX.
Fellows here more knowledgeable than I suggested no go to using it.
better brains than mine have already commented on this but to me at least one of these bolts looks to have six sides like a hex head???
the hex heads on 11 mm headbolts use a 10 mm allen style bit.
373 F heads can be either 11 or 12 mm apparently (so as to maximize confusion).
i picked up a 10 mm allen head socket at Sears for a 11 mm headbolt and a triple square (for a 12 mm bolt on a different head) and both held up really well...Autozone also sells triple squares but they are really soft. Sears steel is better (made in USA!)
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I've got a 373F head right here with 12mm holes, and a 373B with 11mm holes AND a 373B with 12mm holes. Also got another 373F and a 373M ALL 1.6L mechanical heads, but don't have them pulled. Both the 373B (11mm one) and the 373F (12mm) have recesses for the washers, I've heard the 11mm washers are smaller(?)
If I had to guess I'd say you've got the 12mm head.
better brains than mine have already commented on this but to me at least one of these bolts looks to have six sides like a hex head???
the hex heads on 11 mm headbolts use a 10 mm allen style bit.
373 F heads can be either 11 or 12 mm apparently (so as to maximize confusion).
i picked up a 10 mm allen head socket at Sears for a 11 mm headbolt and a triple square (for a 12 mm bolt on a different head) and both held up really well...Autozone also sells triple squares but they are really soft. Sears steel is better (made in USA!)
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Okay...what would be the #3 bolt in the headbolt tightening sequence looked like a hex head to me.
a friend had a 373 F...i told him it had to be a 12 mm like the Brazilian i have but he corrected me saying it was an 11mm...so go figure.
was the TORX SAE because i don't think that would work like a metric triple square...never had a problem with mine anyways
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The casting # and letter on the head means pretty much nothing when it comes to finding out the bolt size and mech or hydro. About 2 years ago we were going to put a table together for the faq and came out with that. Nothing is concrete on what casting # is what. I believe all it can tell you is if the head originally had turbo vavles or not...but I am not certain on that either as it has been a few years now.
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Okay...what would be the #3 bolt in the headbolt tightening sequence looked like a hex head to me.
a friend had a 373 F...i told him it had to be a 12 mm like the Brazilian i have but he corrected me saying it was an 11mm...so go figure.
was the TORX SAE because i don't think that would work like a metric triple square...never had a problem with mine anyways
I agree, does look rather 'hexy' to me too ;D
How about a fingerprint of all the bolts [take a white sheet of paper and stuff thumb onto bolts with paper in between ;D]