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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Armyhelopilot on February 22, 2011, 01:01:05 pm

Title: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 22, 2011, 01:01:05 pm
All,
    Just trying to get a compilation of all the somewhat simple mods to do for a 1.6L IDI.  If I have left something off, please let me know.  I do not necessarily plan on doing all of these, but these are mods that have been discussed for the 1.6L IDI that I may consider.

Turbo:
Early TDI turbo
Intercooler
Install squirters

Fuel Pump:
Governor mainspring mod (shimmed)
Fuel pin mod (trimmed)
Smoke screw adjustment
Fuel pin plastic washer trimming
Timing piston cut down
Timing piston cover (spring side) ground down
Shim under plunger foot (I have no idea what this is) ???
10mm pump head upgrade
1.9L camplate and plungers
155bar injectors due to turbo upgrade but which ones? ???

Valves:
34mm intake (stock) to 36mm (Audi 500s)
31mm exhaust (stock) to 33mm (VW aircooled cut down)
Does anyone know of anyone who has done this?   ???  Where did they get it done? ???

Cam:
Colt Cams is the only one I have read still producing

Block:
Girdle (this means no crank scraper or windage tray due to interference)
Upgraded rods (Rostenís is building some for $450 Euro / set), unless someone knows of a better price from Scat, Pauter or Crower) ???
ARPs on rods, head
Front of crank mod to TDI serpentine
Oil pump upgrade to 36mm
Balance engine
Total Seal gapless rings

Head:
Port and polish
3 angle valve job
(Are the factory valve spring good enough? If not, replace with what?) ???
O-ring the head (Who does this for VW heads and where online can I get the o-rings?) ???

Thanks a lot.  Just trolling for ideas on a 1.6L N/A into a 1993 Geo Tracker 2 door 4x4 with an Acme Adapters conversion kit.  I already have the 1.6 N/A block before anyone suggests a 1.6L TD or a 1.9 TDI!
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: ktownboostn on February 22, 2011, 01:15:25 pm
Giles does IDI cams aswell

I like what your doing here !
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 22, 2011, 01:47:46 pm
All,
    Just trying to get a compilation of all the somewhat simple mods to do for a 1.6L IDI.  If I have left something off, please let me know.  I do not necessarily plan on doing all of these, but these are mods that have been discussed for the 1.6L IDI that I may consider.

Turbo:
Early TDI turbo - might be a little small.. a VNT would be better
Intercooler
Install squirters - not needed unless you are holding it at like 1200* egt for a very long time.. ask me how i know.

Fuel Pump:
Governor mainspring mod (shimmed)
Fuel pin mod (trimmed) - only needed on a n/a pump
Smoke screw adjustment
Fuel pin plastic washer trimming - only needed on a TD pump top
Timing piston cut down - theres an easier way.
Timing piston cover (spring side) ground down - why?
Shim under plunger foot (I have no idea what this is) ??? - again, why?
10mm pump head upgrade - again, why
1.9L camplate and plungers - same..
155bar injectors due to turbo upgrade but which ones? ???

the plunger spacer, plunger, pump head, and cam plate are basically matched up to operate properly..

and you really dont need 155 bar injectors.. im running fresh 135 bar injectors in my engine.
and Dave Cross was building right around 200 hp with a stock pump head and injectors..

as for the advance piston/cover mods, theres a much easier way to do this. just install a TDI advance spring cover.

Valves: - Install AAZ head and be done with it.
34mm intake (stock) to 36mm (Audi 500s)
31mm exhaust (stock) to 33mm (VW aircooled cut down)
Does anyone know of anyone who has done this?   ???  Where did they get it done? ???


Cam: - Dr Diesel and Giles make cams..
Colt Cams is the only one I have read still producing

Block:
Girdle (this means no crank scraper or windage tray due to interference)
Upgraded rods (Rostenís is building some for $450 Euro / set), unless someone knows of a better price from Scat, Pauter or Crower) ???
ARPs on rods, head
Front of crank mod to TDI serpentine
Oil pump upgrade to 36mm
Balance engine - not super necessary, since our engines only turn a limited number of RPMs.. 5600 is about all you can get out of these.
Total Seal gapless rings

Head:
Port and polish - intake side is alright, the exhaust ports are what really need opened up
3 angle valve job
(Are the factory valve spring good enough? If not, replace with what?) ??? - dont need much better valve springs, these engines wont run enough boost, or turn enough rpms..
O-ring the head (Who does this for VW heads and where online can I get the o-rings?) ??? - never seen or heard of getting a VW o-ringed, and i dont think it would do much good, because the head is the weak spot. it actually flexes when theres lots of boost. o-rings are not going to fix this issue. or else you pull the head studs right out of the block, again, o-rings wouldnt fix that.

Thanks a lot.  Just trolling for ideas on a 1.6L N/A into a 1993 Geo Tracker 2 door 4x4 with an Acme Adapters conversion kit.  I already have the 1.6 N/A block before anyone suggests a 1.6L TD or a 1.9 TDI!


i really dont think you need such a hot rod engine, you are just going to eat trannies with it.. those tracker trannies are only reliable up to about 130 ft lbs of torque. and it doesnt take much to get 130 ft lbs out of a VW diesel. a TDI would have the guts torn out of that trans in short order..

if i were you, and i were set on building a hot rod VW Diesel.. i would swap in a toyota pickup transmission and be done with it.

ever seen a tracker transmixer torn apart? the shafts inside it look more like tooth picks than transmission shafts..
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: dieselschlepper on February 22, 2011, 10:00:03 pm
Do the heads flex because of the IDI chamber?  O rings usually prevent head gaskets from blowing and they seem more likely to blow if the head flexes.  How much boost can a VW IDI handle? 
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: maxfax on February 22, 2011, 10:12:48 pm
Look into the multi layer steel (MLS) gasket as used on the AAZ..  That should handle the task quite well..  Far less the cost of O-ringing the block with about the same results..  AS ROR mentioned the head itself is the weak point, the IDI chambers may be some of it, but the fact that it's aluminum is the main thing....  23:1 compression plus 30 or 40lbs of boots on top of that, something gotta move, and it usually isn't anything in the bottom end..  AS far as the boost limit, IIRC most are running around 30lbs..  I think 40 is about the limit...

Also as Kevin mentioned, if you gonna be putting that much torque tot he thing, you need to think about a trans upgrade..  Heck I've seen the stock gasser bust them up...
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 23, 2011, 12:00:25 am
All,

    Thanks for the input.  ROR....My intent is not to build a hot rod.  I am just trying to see what all mods are available and out there, get feedback about each one, and then decide on which ones to do.  Remember, I never said I was going to do any or all of them.  :)

As far as your input....some clarification please:

early TDI turbo....you suggest a VNT, how can I run a VNT turbo without electronics to actuate it? Vacuum, boost?

squirters.....These I will install.  This is my wife's daily driver as well as our weekend fun truck and I cannot guarantee she will not run it hot on her watch.  She has alreay run a 4.3 Chevy van through water and hydrolocked it. So, this is insurance...and a way to save me mechanic time!

Pump mods:
I have no idea why half of these mods are...that is why I am asking?!?!  They are not my posts...I have just read of people doing them.

Nice to know about the injector pressure.  Have you tried 155s to see what it would do?  I will be going from a NA pump to TD so it would seem you would need to match the pump with injectors.....


The advance spring cover from a TDI would save a lot of trouble.  Do you have a PN?  What difference is there in it an a TD?

Has anyone compared the cams between Colt, Dr Diesel and Giles?

And you pretty much answered the question of the oring.  Never saw a parts site offering o-rings for a VW.

I have heard the 5 speed trannies in the Trackers were rated higher than that.  I do have 4.30s front and rear to get the RPMs down on the interstate and to offset that offroad, I have ordered the 4.24:1 transfer case gears to make it more friendly on the trails.  Nothing extreme mind you.

It would be nice to put a Toyo 22R in it but then my $700.00 adapter kit would be useless.  I would have to buy ANOTHER $700.00 adapter kit to a 22R.

    Again, everyone thanks for the input and if you still have input....let me hear it.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: maxfax on February 23, 2011, 12:25:48 am
Sounds like the oil squirters would be some good insurance..   ;)

AS far as the injectors there has been some discussion on this..  The 155 bar injectors flow the same amount of fuel as the 135 bar..  The difference is the breaking pressure (the pressure that they pop open)
I'm not sure sure there has even been a reason given on here as to why VW changed the pressure on the

Many have run a turbo with the 135 bar and been just fine..  There have been some reports of better economy and smoother quieter operation with the higher breaking pressure on both NA and TD engines.... TD engines..  I'm assuming the biggest difference between the higher and lower pressure is going to be timing related... 

The larger pump head would allow the pump to flow more fuel due to the larger plunger.. I can;t verify if either make a significant difference..  IIRC, the 1.9 cam plate has more aggressive lobes that both push the plunger in faster and allow for more travel of the plunger thus moving more fuel faster.. Many have been just fine with the stock head and cam plate making plenty of power, others here I'm sure can chime in with more details on results...
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: dankcorey22 on February 23, 2011, 12:49:19 am
R.O.R- I disagree with only porting the exhaust side. I think you should leave the exhaust alone and only port the intake to gasket. If port the exhaust yes more volume is going through but the air is not flowing as fast there for more turbo lag/ less boost. Thats just my 2 cents
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: maxfax on February 23, 2011, 12:53:24 am
Max, the 135bar injectors have been shown to result in *better* fuel economy.  The 15bar injectors reduce smoke.  My explanation is that the fuel squirted at 135bar requires less drag on the engine than the same amount of fuel squirted at 155bar, but the fuel squirted at the higher pressure is more atomized and so burns more cleanly.  The increased efficiency of the cleaner burn doesn't offset the extra energy required to squirt at the higher pressure.

Makes sense..  Could be that in the previous discussion months ago about is that when they rebuilt the injectors to a higher pressure that simply having new nozzles in the mix made the noticeable economy difference..

Quote
The high pressure portion of the injection pump is exactly the same between the N/A pump and the TD pump.  You need to match the timing spec to the type of injectors, but not the pump to the injectors.

Yes..  Could that be partly be why they used the 2 different breaking pressures?  My theory has always been it would be cheaper to change the spring/shim in the injector than it would be to make major changes to the pump.. Of course why the difference in the first place?  Ultimately I always assumed the main reason for the difference was something related to emissions.. Maybe as simple as higher breaking pressure = less smoke...
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 23, 2011, 02:54:47 am
All,

    This is great discussion an exactly why I posted this.

    I would rather slightly overbuild the engine and not need it than have to go back and do more upgrades later.  Plus, this is going to be my son's first vehicle when he is old enough.  That is why I would rather have it built to withstand a lot later.  Right now, my wife probably will not be taxing this thing.  However, I am sure my son will at some point in time when he owns it.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: nathan_b on February 23, 2011, 10:10:36 am
sons first car? give him a 1.5na.
Let's see him try to hot rod around town in that.

Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 23, 2011, 10:52:41 am
All,

    Thanks for the input.  ROR....My intent is not to build a hot rod.  I am just trying to see what all mods are available and out there, get feedback about each one, and then decide on which ones to do.  Remember, I never said I was going to do any or all of them.  :)

As far as your input....some clarification please:

early TDI turbo....you suggest a VNT, how can I run a VNT turbo without electronics to actuate it? Vacuum, boost?

squirters.....These I will install.  This is my wife's daily driver as well as our weekend fun truck and I cannot guarantee she will not run it hot on her watch.  She has alreay run a 4.3 Chevy van through water and hydrolocked it. So, this is insurance...and a way to save me mechanic time!

Pump mods:
I have no idea why half of these mods are...that is why I am asking?!?!  They are not my posts...I have just read of people doing them.

Nice to know about the injector pressure.  Have you tried 155s to see what it would do?  I will be going from a NA pump to TD so it would seem you would need to match the pump with injectors.....


The advance spring cover from a TDI would save a lot of trouble.  Do you have a PN?  What difference is there in it an a TD?

Has anyone compared the cams between Colt, Dr Diesel and Giles?

And you pretty much answered the question of the oring.  Never saw a parts site offering o-rings for a VW.

I have heard the 5 speed trannies in the Trackers were rated higher than that.  I do have 4.30s front and rear to get the RPMs down on the interstate and to offset that offroad, I have ordered the 4.24:1 transfer case gears to make it more friendly on the trails.  Nothing extreme mind you.

It would be nice to put a Toyo 22R in it but then my $700.00 adapter kit would be useless.  I would have to buy ANOTHER $700.00 adapter kit to a 22R.

    Again, everyone thanks for the input and if you still have input....let me hear it.


there are threads about how to cable operate a VNT..

squirters are not super necessary unless you are going to be holding it at 1250* stack temp.. and if you do squirters, i would use the 1.8t squirters, they have a much simpler installation..

you prolly are not gonna want the pump turned up too far, because you say your not building a hot rod.. if you turn the pump up, it will break trannies real good.

TDI advance cover is much deeper, allowing the advance piston to travel farther..

you can run whatever injectors you want with whatever pump you want for the post part, just gotta set the timing appropriately..
i think you time the 135bars to .83mm, and the 155bars to .95mm

as for the transmission weakness, you ARE going to break tranny input shafts.. ever looked at the input shaft for a sammi/tracker trans? they are super duper tiny..

the thing to do is to use a VW diesel, a 22r trans and Tcase.. throw it all in the tracker..

i dont believe they make a VW-Toyota adapter.. i know some people have custom made their own fairly easy tho.

if you over build the engine to save yourself from working on IT, thats fine, you will just be working on other things, like the TRANNY.

your son is gonna make the tranny puke bits all over the road when he trys to do his first burn out..  ;D
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 23, 2011, 11:15:58 am
ROR,

    That is why he is going to help me build it now...so that when he breaks it, he will know how to fix it!!
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 23, 2011, 11:18:43 am
ROR,

    Also, Acme does have a Bare Bones kit that adapts the 1.6L to a 22R. $425.00.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 23, 2011, 11:21:31 am
ROR,

    Also, Acme does have a Bare Bones kit that adapts the 1.6L to a 22R. $425.00.

well crap, its cheap as he!!, and it will work great!

but you would prolly need most of the kit you already have also, unless it comes with motor mounts and stuff..
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 24, 2011, 03:32:41 am
ROR,

  You suggested putting an AAZ (1.9) head on my 1.6 and forgo all the valve work.  I would also need new pistons, cam and a few other parts (injectors, glow plugs...)
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: maxfax on February 24, 2011, 04:16:43 am
IIRC

The 1.9 head on a 1.6 is a rather easy swap..  Your 1.6 GPs, injectors, and cam (as long as it's for hydro lifters) will work..   IF you have a hydro lifter block no problems there either, pistons have no need to be changed..  

If you have a mech lifter block, you'll need to plug the second oil return hole in the head.. Most tap it and screw a pipe plug in..

You would however need the AAZ valve cover as it fastens different, although I seem to recall seeing something (here maybe) about drilling and tapping the head for a standard 1.6 cover...

The biggest downfall would be harder starting in cold weather..  The chamber in the AAZ head is larger and will drop your compression down to something like 19.1..  That won;t hurt power and economy so much, but once again not good for cold starts...
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 24, 2011, 05:06:37 am
Max,

    I was thinking of like the Frankenmotor 1.9TDI heads on 1.6L IDI blocks like andy2 and Malone have done.  They obviously have no prechambers in the head as the reason they lose compression.  Theirs is in the pistons.  I have found a site (emiata) that has the 1.9 AAZ head for $289 bare / $450 complete.  What all on my 1.6L N/A IDI block will transfer if I go with the bare bones block?
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 24, 2011, 06:40:57 am
All,

    I was also wondering, everyone who has done this (1.9 AAZ on 1.6L block) has had problems with cold starts.  Can the head be shaved and the deck as well in addition to a thinner HG to bump the compression up slightly to help this?  Does the 1.9L head clamp better than the 1.6?  Remember, I have an '83 Jetta 1.6L N/A, which I am pretty sure is a mechanical head.  Everyone that puts on a 1.9L AAZ swtiches it to mechanical, even though it came as hydraulic.  I can plug the extra oil drain on the 1.9L head and fix the coolant mismatch while still keeping the head hydraulic?  That would save a lot of money I can use for porting an polishing.  IIRC, the Intake valve is only 1mm larger, correct?
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: maxfax on February 24, 2011, 07:42:26 am
   I was thinking of like the Frankenmotor 1.9TDI heads on 1.6L IDI

They used a 1.9 IDI head..  IN the mid 90's the lucky Canadian #&*'s got a 1.9 IDI also referred to by it's engine code AAZ..  So they did still indeed have prechambers..  BUT the 1.9 AAZ has a larger volume prechamber than the 1.6 which is what caused the lower compression..  

The reasoning behind the larger prechamber on the 1.9 AAZ was to keep the compression down around the normal 23:1 range.. (I forget what the exact ratio was on those)  IF they had used the same chamber from the 1.6 coupled with the larger bore and stroke, the compression would be sky high..  Basically the same principal as stroking a gas engine..  A lot of stroker kits come with a dished piston, or a cylinder head volume suggestion so that you don't end up with crazy high compression..

At this point there are no 1.6 TDI pistons..  Emiata (aka Prothe) has claimed to be working on such a beast, but it hasn't happened yet..  Chances are as actual TDIs get older, they will get cheaper and make a TDI 1.6 not worth the time..

Your 83 is a mech lifter engine..  Other than the member Saurkraut on here, everyone has been running their AAZ with the hydro lifters.. Address the extra oil return port issue and you're golden..  Changing the head to mech lifters involves A LOT of custom work.. Probably not worth the time and money either..

Shaving the head will do nothing for compression..  The valves are flush with the gasket surface..  THe only chamber in the head is the precombustion chamber (or precup).. If you had some means of shrinking that without screwing with it's operation (swirl and stuff), you could raise the compression..  

Thinner head gasket is a not a good idea..  Once again, valves are flush with the gasket surface, and piston to valve clearance is pretty tight to begin with... Measure the protrusion of the piston and go no thinner than what that spec says.. Pistons making friends with the valves at high rpms is not a good situation...

I've often wondered how some sort of air heater in the intake (such as used on the Cummins) in conjunction with the glow plugs would work in helping the issue...  Possibly leave the intake air heater on as sort of an afterglow function to aid in warmup operation...

Speaking of Emiata, do a search on here for "prothe" to get a feel for the vendor...  On the other side of the coin Smokey Eddy on here has been using one of his AAZ heads with no problems...

Whew, it's way past my bed time, let me know if I wasn't making sense on something here..  ;)
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: nathan_b on February 24, 2011, 08:13:50 am
I have a 1.6 with 1.9 head. 2 notch aaz head gasket. 1.6 injectors, ip. stock mk1 glow plugs. This past winter it started in -12F with no block heater and a stock mk1 size battery. Don't get me wrong, it belched white smoke for a min or two, but always started perfectly. I daily drove it all winter in ohio.

Hard starting 1.6/1.9 is a myth, or due to poor tuning. My timing is set to "1.05"
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 24, 2011, 08:33:01 am
if you put a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block it will lower the compression and make for harder starting in the cold. It is just a fact of numbers. We are not saying it won't start, run rough, etc, but it will start harder than it would with the proper cc head. That said usually people are putting the 1.9 head on a 1.6 that has 250,000 plus miles and compression #s that aren't real good. Smoking eddy had one on his 1.6 and had some starting trouble and he had re ringed his. Not horrible starting trouble IIRC but not good either. I think his timing was 1.15 or something like that to get it to start there. I could be off.
 
So it isn't a myth is what I am saying. Your experience is probably more uncommon than most and great for you. Good to see another ohio dub guy.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: maxfax on February 24, 2011, 08:35:40 am
Hard starting 1.6/1.9 is a myth, or due to poor tuning. My timing is set to "1.05"

I've often wondered how bad the starting would actually be.. Less compression load on the starter, it ought to spin pretty good.. I've had a 1.6 with a 1.5 head  (25:1 compression)  always cranked slow as heck but managed just to start..

Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 24, 2011, 09:14:31 am
All,

    Great information.  The engine will be totally gone through, so using old parts will not be a consideration.  So, with all new parts, total seal rings, it should start somewhat easily.  I was thinking of going to a junkyard and getting the grid heater off of a Dodge just as a precaution and plumb it in to help the GPs out in the winter.

    So, is the AAZ head Prothe has worth the swap?  I have read several swaps and builds including Smokey Eddie's and it seems well within my capability.  $450.00 isn't too bad, and I would have it ported, polished, and I/E runners ceramic coated to help keep head temps down and reduce cracking.  There is a site that is quoting $1,800.00 for a performance head rebuild which includes larger valves (37 Int, 33 Exh vs 34 Int, 31 Exh), dual valve springs, port / polish / radius work and 3 angle valve job.  Too pricey for me.  What are the valve sizes on the 1.9?  IIRC, only the Intake is 1mm larger?

    What are the precups made of?  Just thinking if it is possible to either coat them or weld and then grind them smoothe to increase the compression.

     Thanks guys.  You are making this sound easier to do when I get back from Afghanistan.

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: maxfax on February 24, 2011, 10:04:14 am
    Thanks guys.  You are making this sound easier to do when I get back from Afghanistan.
 

Have you ever played with Legos???   Vw's are basically the same thing..  


The precups are made of Iconel..  Hard, I mean REALLY friggen hard..  Not much touches it in the way of grinding and sanding...  Don't have a clue how it welds..  But I do like to weld things I shouldn't.. Maybe I'll have to try that...

I dunno how long those grid heaters can stay powered, from what I have heard, for quite a while and not burn up..  Use your GP's and the air heater for starting, and have the grid heater powered for a bit after starting and you just might be okay..  
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 24, 2011, 10:53:09 am
For what it is worth *not to sound like a broken record* Air Cooled Engines Plus--Tiffin, Ohio did my cyl. head. I think I had around 600.00 in it shipped both ways and:
Port/polish
stainless undercut swirl polish valves
flow bench report before and after
All new guides, retainers, lifters, etc.
The only thing that was used basically was the casting and cam.
I picked up around 15% more exhaust flow and almost 50% more intake...my 1.6 head should outflow a 1.9 head in STOCK form.
Plus John is a good guy. Send him your 1.9L head and I would love to see the printout of the flowbench on that before and after. If nothing else to compare to what I have :D
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 24, 2011, 10:57:12 am
ROR,

  You suggested putting an AAZ (1.9) head on my 1.6 and forgo all the valve work.  I would also need new pistons, cam and a few other parts (injectors, glow plugs...)

no dude, you take a 1.6D, un bolt the head thats on it, put a plug in the front oil drain of the AAZ head, and install it on the 1.6 bottom end.

why do you need new pistons, cam and other things?

you can use almost all of the left over 1.6 parts..

Volkswagens = Legos
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 24, 2011, 11:18:57 am
All,

    Still great info.

ROR:  This is a used engine out of a junkyard.  It was the owner's engine and he said he rebuilt it less than 20k before he wrecked it so I have no idea what the condition of the internals are.  I do not want to end up like some others by reusing used parts.  Besides, I will need new pistons as mine are N/A with no squirter cutouts, and I am putting squirters in just to be on the safe side.  I was thinking the cam to help it breathe a little better and spool the turbo more.  Plus, if the cam will stay open a little longer and let a little more air in (along with a good port and polish), then when it compresses it will have a higher compression, helping the cold start and the inherent problem of a lower copmpression with an AAZ on a 1.6L.  Just thinking out loud, am I way off base here?

Man:  I keep hearing about Air Cooled Engines Plus.  I will have to give him a call when I get back.  Definitely cheaper than $1,800.00.  Plus, if the above works for more airflow and subsequently more compression at startup, messing with the cups is a non-issue.

    The Dodge grid heater would definitely help.  $115 new, cheaper at junkyard.  Plus, at a junkyard, I can get the relays also.

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 24, 2011, 11:23:49 pm
All,

    Just trying to get ballpark numbers for HP / TQ.

Man:  You had Air Cooled Engines Port, polish your head among other things.  What do you think your HP / TQ numbers are right now?  Does he have a website or an email address?  Hard to call from over here.  I would like to ask him the cost of working on a 1.9 head.  Close to what you had done but just a bit more.

Anyone who has done the 1.9head on a 1.6 block, what did it improve your numbers to? 

Factory specs:
VW 1.6 Normally Aspirated diesel (CR, JK, ME): 52 HP and 71 ft lbs torque
VW 1.6 TurboDiesel (CY, MF): 68 HP and 98 ft lbs torque
Geo Tracker 1.6 Gas TBI: 80 HP and 94 ft lbs torque

As you can see, with the gasser in the Tracker right now I have 80HP, 94ft/lbs and I am putting in an ME block (52HP, 71ft/lbs) but I am installing a turbo and pump upgrades so at least I should get near 68HP, 98ft/lbs.  Will putting the 1.9 head on allow it to put out 100HP+ an 125ft/lbs?  That would be more than enough in my book.  Anything above that is icing on the cake.

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 24, 2011, 11:32:24 pm
I would like to think that I am making over 115hp. I would guess slightly over 130...but I have a Giles pump and 3" exhaust to help everything else I have done. I would think you could get your 100HP with a free flowing exhaust, gov mod, and a screwdriver...following the FAQ section for how to make your 1.6TD a faster car of course.

Why do I think 115+  It takes a bit to get rolling and I have an egt issue, but from 25-100mph it is faster than my mom's PD TDI jetta
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: nathan_b on February 25, 2011, 12:20:10 am
cant comment on hp numbers but I have a 1.6/1.9 rabbit pickup running 1.6 pump and injectors and an aaz k14 turbo.

Boost is around 17psi. Pump is stock with a light gov mod and a bit of general tuning, boost pin rotated, smoke screw all the way in. I regulate boost with my right foot because the wastegate is stuck shut... I need to do that and add an intercooler then this thing will really be scooting. Funny thing though, even with the fuel screw in until the idle just barely won't hang it still won't smoke.

It is around 10-11s 0-60mph, and will end a 0-60 pull with like 700f egts... It cruises 65mph with 600F egt/ 55mph at 575 egt.

It makes 50mpg on the dot in a rabbit pickup on the highway, somewhere around 38-45 with a ton of in town driving... that and I pretty much put my foot to the floor in every gear every time. ;D

For those who have driven a diesel mk1, I passed a car on the dotted line section of a 2 lane highway without down shifting from 5th. hit about 75mph in less than 10s from 55mph cruising.

I got 740miles out of 13.75 gallons on a straight highway drive at 55-60 steady mph. Nearly 54mpg

makes great heat always within 3min of driving. seriously, I don't see how people have this setup and can't get it to start in the winter, it starts better than most straight 1.6s I've worked on, under no conditions do I ever rotate the engine even 1 full rotation before it starts. I don't even have to glow the plugs but 3s when it's cold. it starts just as well as if yoiu glow them for 10s. (fast glow). One time when it was right at 0f and the car had sat for 3-4 days I started it, it ran rough for 3-4 fires then stalled. Pulled out cold start cable and resterted and fired first hit of key and ran fine. That is the absolute EXTENT of the hard starting when cold hybrid "problem." Oh, and that was with no block heater.

I have a 2.25in straight down pipe for now.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 25, 2011, 05:09:09 am
All,

     I am on the fence on whether to get a $425 1.9 head with about $500 work of port, polish work or just keep my 1.6L head and do like Theman53 and get Air Cooled to open mine up with larger valves (37 / 33), port and polish.  Must think about this for a little while.  I like the frankenmotor idea.

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Bugsy_malone 666 on February 25, 2011, 05:45:15 am
cant comment on hp numbers but I have a 1.6/1.9 rabbit pickup running 1.6 pump and injectors and an aaz k14 turbo.

Boost is around 17psi. Pump is stock with a light gov mod and a bit of general tuning, boost pin rotated, smoke screw all the way in. I regulate boost with my right foot because the wastegate is stuck shut... I need to do that and add an intercooler then this thing will really be scooting. Funny thing though, even with the fuel screw in until the idle just barely won't hang it still won't smoke.

It is around 10-11s 0-60mph, and will end a 0-60 pull with like 700f egts... It cruises 65mph with 600F egt/ 55mph at 575 egt.

It makes 50mpg on the dot in a rabbit pickup on the highway, somewhere around 38-45 with a ton of in town driving... that and I pretty much put my foot to the floor in every gear every time. ;D

For those who have driven a diesel mk1, I passed a car on the dotted line section of a 2 lane highway without down shifting from 5th. hit about 75mph in less than 10s from 55mph cruising.

I got 740miles out of 13.75 gallons on a straight highway drive at 55-60 steady mph. Nearly 54mpg

makes great heat always within 3min of driving. seriously, I don't see how people have this setup and can't get it to start in the winter, it starts better than most straight 1.6s I've worked on, under no conditions do I ever rotate the engine even 1 full rotation before it starts. I don't even have to glow the plugs but 3s when it's cold. it starts just as well as if yoiu glow them for 10s. (fast glow). One time when it was right at 0f and the car had sat for 3-4 days I started it, it ran rough for 3-4 fires then stalled. Pulled out cold start cable and resterted and fired first hit of key and ran fine. That is the absolute EXTENT of the hard starting when cold hybrid "problem." Oh, and that was with no block heater.

I have a 2.25in straight down pipe for now.


Just out of interest did you 1.6 start life as a TD or an NA?

Its just I am looking for something in the way of what you describe how it drives (quick and 45mpg) but my base like the OP of this thread is a 1600NA engine so done have the boost barnicle on the fuel pump, just a stock NA pump.

I want to try and get 90bhp 140lbs.ft out of an NA lump but will be mating mine to golf gearbox so wont have the issues of breakage (probably going to hunt a TDi box down) keeping EGT low may be an issue but sounds like you have it sussed!
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: nathan_b on February 25, 2011, 08:09:15 am
its a real Td block. It is the same engine from Myke_W's td 90 jetta coupe (that is now a full on tdi), although it is significantly detuned. No more giles super-pump. If I had to throw out a conservative guess, I would say 85hp, non intercooled and with the fuel turned down to compensate for a stuck wastegate because I work so much there's not a spare minute to work on the pickup. Good thing it never breaks!
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 25, 2011, 09:58:08 am
All,

    What are the numbers (lift / dur) between Dr Diesel, Giles an Colt?  Prices for each?  What are the specs and anyone have improvement numbers?

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 25, 2011, 09:58:42 am
All,

    Just trying to get ballpark numbers for HP / TQ.

Man:  You had Air Cooled Engines Port, polish your head among other things.  What do you think your HP / TQ numbers are right now?  Does he have a website or an email address?  Hard to call from over here.  I would like to ask him the cost of working on a 1.9 head.  Close to what you had done but just a bit more.

Anyone who has done the 1.9head on a 1.6 block, what did it improve your numbers to? 

Factory specs:
VW 1.6 Normally Aspirated diesel (CR, JK, ME): 52 HP and 71 ft lbs torque
VW 1.6 TurboDiesel (CY, MF): 68 HP and 98 ft lbs torque
Geo Tracker 1.6 Gas TBI: 80 HP and 94 ft lbs torque

As you can see, with the gasser in the Tracker right now I have 80HP, 94ft/lbs and I am putting in an ME block (52HP, 71ft/lbs) but I am installing a turbo and pump upgrades so at least I should get near 68HP, 98ft/lbs.  Will putting the 1.9 head on allow it to put out 100HP+ an 125ft/lbs?  That would be more than enough in my book.  Anything above that is icing on the cake. bits in the bottom of the transmission case..

Bob

here, let me fix that for you.

if stock transmissions only last ~100k behind a stock gutless 1.6, then its really gonna have its life expectancy shortened behind something with lots of torque..

Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 25, 2011, 10:01:48 am
All,

     I am on the fence on whether to get a $425 1.9 head with about $500 work of port, polish work or just keep my 1.6L head and do like Theman53 and get Air Cooled to open mine up with larger valves (37 / 33), port and polish.  Must think about this for a little while.  I like the frankenmotor idea.

Bob

AAZ head allows you to run more boost safely..

and why are you worried about cold starts? you are in kentucky!

you really dont need to port the intake side.. the exhaust side is where most of the gains are..

and with an AAZ head, it has bigger valves, and intake ports than a 1.6 head.

an AAZ head is pretty much like having a semi-race prepped head on your 1.6...
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 25, 2011, 10:03:01 am
All,

    What are the numbers (lift / dur) between Dr Diesel, Giles an Colt?  Prices for each?  What are the specs and anyone have improvement numbers?

Bob

it was said that you get between 3-6% more power with the cams..
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 25, 2011, 10:10:38 am
BTW, I would think most cold start problems, if any, could be negated with a block heater and pimped glow plugs. The block heater would do you great from home, and the abililty to run glow plugs longer should help you if you have trouble.
If Kentucky is anything like Ohio, it does get cold Kevin ;D
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 25, 2011, 10:17:35 am
All,

    Thanks for the info.

ROR-  You definitely make me laugh at the "bits in the tranny."

VW 1.6 Normally Aspirated diesel (CR, JK, ME): 52 HP and 71 ft lbs torque
VW 1.6 TurboDiesel (CY, MF): 68 HP and 98 ft lbs torque
Geo Tracker 1.6 Gas TBI: 80 HP and 94 ft lbs torque

It just seems from factory specs, that it would be hard given fuel mods, port / polish and a few other thing to DOUBLE the factory power output and be capable of shredding the tranny.  From the stock NA I would have to gain +60HP and +52ft/lbs to come close to tranny issues.....and that would mean that I would have DOUBLED the factory HP rating and increased TQ by 66%!  Just hard to believe, that is all.

I will have to step it up gradually to make sure I do not shred the trans.  Maybe but a Gtech to see how much each thing bumps it up.

The adapter kit may only be $425....but then there is the new 22R tranny and transfer case.  Meaning I would have an adapter kit ($600.00), a 5 speed tranny+ transfer case ($375 junkyard), and a 3 speed auto in it with less than 20k on it ($700 from Autozone) that will now be paperweights.  Not conducive to wife happiness for parts that have een bought to be lying around unused or sold for a loss. :o
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 25, 2011, 10:20:06 am
All,

    BTW, it has been snowing regularly in KY lately...haven't you heard about global warming? ;D
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 25, 2011, 10:28:57 am
BTW,

    Grid heater an glows should work ok to negate the cold start. 

    Now, where to get a decent 1.9 head?  Also, what valves (larger) will work in the exhaust side, as the intake is already 2mm larger than the 1.6 NA or TD?  Are the 1.9 cam and the 1.6 cam identical?

    Now that means none of my exhaust will bolt up right.  1.9 and 1.6 have different patterns, correct?

The earlier AAZ heads has 8mm valve stems:          Later on they moved over to the 7mm stem size:
Intake: 36.0mm x 8mm x 95.6mm          Intake: 36.0mm x 7mm x 95.6mm
Exhaust: 31.2mm x 8mm x 95.6mm                    Exhaust: 31.0mm x 7mm x 95.6mm

83 VW Jetta Deluxe             Intake      34mm      104.8mm length
         Exhaust   31mm      104.6mm length

According to what I have seen on this site, only the 1.9 Int is larger.  So, is it possible to have the exh done oversize?  Air Cooled Engines Plus maybe?

Bob


Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 25, 2011, 10:38:34 am
the block is taller, thats all. exhaust manifolds and that sort bolt right up..

just gotta make the downpipe 16mm longer..

im really glad you can take what i say as humor, but its really easy to build power with these engines, i bet you could almost get 100hp out of a n/a if you REALLY tried..

im willing to bet that my 1.6 has enough torque to shred sammi trannies, it really moves my rabbit around like it has 100hp or more..

when you add boost, and lots of fuel, these engines really come alive.

stock TD cars are not that spectacular.. and they basically always have traction.

i was having traction issues with 185/70 tires on dry pavement.

it is realistic to get 110-130 hp with only light mods done to the engine.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 25, 2011, 10:52:24 am
Quote
It just seems from factory specs, that it would be hard given fuel mods, port / polish and a few other thing to DOUBLE the factory power output and be capable of shredding the tranny.  From the stock NA I would have to gain +60HP and +52ft/lbs to come close to tranny issues.....and that would mean that I would have DOUBLED the factory HP rating and increased TQ by 66%!  Just hard to believe, that is all.
Nope, not hard to believe.
I got my old flat red rabbit to run pretty much the same as my 83gti with a bigger intake hose, gov. mod, and a 13mm wrench and screwdriver.
The GTI would pick up faster, but it has a 2H tranny. The flat red bunny would pull 2x as good from 35 to 80mph.
Stock GTI was about 90 hp and 100ft/lbs factory and the guy I bought it from had some goodies stuck on it.
The 13mm wrench and screwdriver were to add fuel. It smoked at idle, but it screamed from there.

NOW add a turbo, intercooler, huge downpipe, and more fuel....
MJF had a 1.6 that was right around 250hp. Dave at passenger had something that was right around 200hp don't know if it was 1.6 or hybrid/frankenthing.

What my respected *LOL* pal ROR and myself are saying in short is:
Yep, it is possible.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 25, 2011, 10:54:32 am
Dave Cross was building 196hp off a stock pump head and injectors  :o
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 25, 2011, 11:13:58 am
All,

    Part of the reason I stayed up was to talk to John at Air Cooled Engines.  All I got was static an an answering machine.  If anyone can assist by passing along my email info I would be grateful.

And in my business, you can't let things get to you.  Look at the photo.  As long as it ain't pointed at me.......  So, I can take criticism. 

    I have done several gassers from A to Z but this is my first diesel build.  Going in  a '93 Tracker, with 31s, 5 speed, 2 door with hardtop.  Mileage has to be better than stock 20mpg with 4.62 diffs, 1.6L gas (249,000mi), 205 / 75s, and 3 speed auto.  Runs almost 5K rpm at 70mph on the interstate.

    With the diesel, looking to stay 2500-2750rpms with 5 speed, 31s and 4.30s. For offroad, putting lower gears in the transfer so as not to snap anything.

Again, are the cams the same...1.6 / 1.9?
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 25, 2011, 11:30:47 am
All,

    Part of the reason I stayed up was to talk to John at Air Cooled Engines.  All I got was static an an answering machine.  If anyone can assist by passing along my email info I would be grateful.

And in my business, you can't let things get to you.  Look at the photo.  As long as it ain't pointed at me.......  So, I can take criticism. 

    I have done several gassers from A to Z but this is my first diesel build.  Going in  a '93 Tracker, with 31s, 5 speed, 2 door with hardtop.  Mileage has to be better than stock 20mpg with 4.62 diffs, 1.6L gas (249,000mi), 205 / 75s, and 3 speed auto.  Runs almost 5K rpm at 70mph on the interstate.

    With the diesel, looking to stay 2500-2750rpms with 5 speed, 31s and 4.30s. For offroad, putting lower gears in the transfer so as not to snap anything.

Again, are the cams the same...1.6 / 1.9?

sounds like you got the tranny with the super low gear set in it..

my dads tracker had that kinda trans in it before i replaced it, the one i put in dropped the engine 400 rpms at 60 mph..

and the gear set in your transfer case is not going to fix anything..

the shaft that the engine hooks up to, the input shaft. the shaft that has splines, and holds the clutch disk.. you know, that shaft in the middle of the bell housing? thats the input shaft. all the engines torque has to go thru that shaft. and its IIRC that shaft is no bigger than 3/8" or so, its just TINY..

a billet input shaft would fix the transmission. im pretty sure the transfer case is not the weak point.

only reason im saying any of this is because when i thought about swapping my dads tracker, lots of people told me to swap the stock tranny out too..

stock trans works great if you bolt up a n/a in front of it. but your engine is going to be more power than the stock engine, and probably about twice as much torque.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: 8v-of-fury on February 25, 2011, 11:45:58 am
Also to add on to the belief that the "double the torque" will be possible, of course it will, unlike our gasser brethrens we don't need rpms to make power. Sure your hp might never top 110... but what does that matter when your making 150-175tq? HP is just tq * rpm... Hp means practically nothing to a diesel engine. Ever notice why they never boast hp ratings of diesel? Because its always like %25-35 less than tq numbers. The stock TD will match your old motor for torque. The pump mods, aaz head, intercooler, upping fuel (and thus boost)... And 150tq will be yours with minimal effort.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 25, 2011, 12:09:34 pm
some of the bigger diesels, like the duramax and cummins make 2x the torque than that of the power they make..

1000hp duramax usually has around 2000 ft lbs of twist..

direct injection engines usually have a 2:1 tq to power ratio

indirect injection engines usually have ~1.5:1 tq to power

gassers usually run pretty close to 1:1 tq to power..

(this is not the law of the land, just some observations)
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 25, 2011, 02:38:51 pm
All,

    Well, I was putting the 4.24:1 gearset in the transfer case as I have replaced the 4.62 diff gears front and rear with 4.30s.  This is to get the rpm down below 4,000.  However, it also places more strain and torque on the drivetrain.  Not so much on the highway that I am worries as I am also putting in 30% stronger axles, and I am sure the drivetrain can take it as long as I do not go crazy with the torque and fuel settings. 

    So, to help take some strain off of it while offroad, I was putting in the 4.24:1 redution gears....kinda like going from 7th gear on a 10 speed to 3rd gear.  Better than factory, anyhow.

    And for the life of me, and 2 hrs spent on Google, I cannot find the specs on the Isuzu made Tracker tranny.  Does anyone know what the max input torque rating actually is......printed!?  I can tell you it is a VIT5-B.

    I have to be getting old...can't find a darn thing anymore. :-\
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 25, 2011, 03:50:13 pm
i have seen it in print with my own 2 eyes. the max rating is 130 ft lbs for a tracker/sammi trans..
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 26, 2011, 12:29:48 am
OK,

     So let me understand....to maximize the power out of the 1.6L NA, 1.6 NA converted to a 1.6 TD or 1.6 / 1.9 combo, I would have to go with the Toyo L56 or W53 tranny and its transfer case or otherwise shred the stock Tracker tranny gears?  What model tranny would be most available / cheapest / best to use?  Do you know of anyone who has put one in a Tracker?  I am registering at BBS. Zuwharrie.com as we speak to get their experience on this kind of swap.

    This creates all kinds of problems.  Not only lots of transmissions / parts building up I would not be able to use, but also for speedo hookup, trans mounting, transfer case drive shaft hookup...

    Would mean I have to get another adapter bracket.  I would have  excess:  1 ea 3L30 w/transfer case, 1 ea 5 speed manual w/transfer case, 1 ea 1.6L gas engine.  Not good.  I would start getting in trouble with the law for improper fencing of a junkyard!!!

    Most importantly, does the Toyo transfer case and the Tracker transfer case both drop on the same side????

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: nathan_b on February 26, 2011, 02:19:29 am
Just buy a volkswagen  ;D
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 26, 2011, 10:01:14 am
All,

    I have gone so far as to see what the price is to have the input, output shafts and gears nitrided, hardened and cryo treated for added strength.  Gotta be cheaper than putting an all new (or used) driveline in it.  Have to pay $799 if I want the new transfer case from a Toyota to exit on the left side like a Tracker t case.  That is for the adapter kit to rotate it, not including the cost of the used tranny, rebuild kit, transfer case cost.....

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 26, 2011, 10:36:03 am
I am a little more wife experienced than some on here....

    Tell the wife that you want to do the beefy trans setup and its costs. Let her say no blah blah blah, whatever. Start saving  ;), run the tracker stuff until it explodes and makes all sorts of funny noises. Then tell the wife this is why you wanted to do it in the first place and since you are so far along you have to get the beefier setup now. In the meantime research and look for the best deals as you have time. Find someone who maybe interested in your current conversion kit and let him know it maybe a bit so you can unload it after getting some use out of it.

Not saying that I know anyone that has done this, but look at my build thread that took 3 years...it is in my signiture line below  ;D
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 26, 2011, 01:52:32 pm
All,   

    What is the stock tq rating for the L52 and W56 Toyo trannies?  Would hate to go all out on the 1.6 and it be more than even the W56 can take and go through having to upgrade again.  This is quickly getting expensive.

    Wondering if the new diffs (4.30s) will take the max torque and the 31" tires added?  I will have my 4.62s it was born with as backup.  As I said, going with +30% stronger axle shafts in the rear so that will be one less thing to break.

Man53....the welding fire was hilarious!!  ;D   Been through some incidents like that but iI always tell everyone it happened to a friend of mine to protect the guilty!

Bob

 
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 26, 2011, 02:26:20 pm
well, im not sure what the G52 and W56 trannies are actually rated for, but i know they will take it. ive had a tracker trans, and various toyota pickup trannies apart. the toyota trannies are some of the toughest import trannies ive layed hands on..

i have a few different friends with 350 chevy V8s in front of stock toyota 4 cylinder trannies.. they live as long as you dont drop the clutch at 7000 rpms..

if you are worried about it, get a R150 or R151 tranny.. they came in V6 and turbo 4 cyl toyotas, and are much tougher than the n/a 4 cyl trannies.

i would say that the input shaft on a toyota tranny, is 5 or 6 times tougher than a tracker input shaft, easily, hands down.

like i say, all the shafts in a tracker trans look more like tooth picks than transmission parts.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 26, 2011, 02:56:36 pm
All,   

    What is the stock tq rating for the L52 and W56 Toyo trannies?  Would hate to go all out on the 1.6 and it be more than even the W56 can take and go through having to upgrade again.  This is quickly getting expensive.

    Wondering if the new diffs (4.30s) will take the max torque and the 31" tires added?  I will have my 4.62s it was born with as backup.  As I said, going with +30% stronger axle shafts in the rear so that will be one less thing to break.

Man53....the welding fire was hilarious!!  ;D   Been through some incidents like that but iI always tell everyone it happened to a friend of mine to protect the guilty!

Bob

 
Your diffs will be fine. BUT another reason why the trans may not like the new torque. If they are beefy and the trans is not then it will only have one place to break.
I would run it and see how long the trans lasts. You never know when someone was having a good day in the foundry/machine shop. You could get lucky and run it for years. I have welded a stub axle in a bronco with 38.5 tall swampers on it, 4.56 gears, 400 built well, and it is holding 3 plus years. I replaced that same stub axle 5 times with new and junkyard...so far this is best. Never know till you try. And keeps the wife a little more happy.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 27, 2011, 12:15:42 pm
exactly what i was getting at, the transmission being the weakest link of the drivetrain..

the input shaft of the trans is going to be the first piece to break, its for sure the smallest and weakest part in the drivetrain.

the only reason im saying any of this, is because i have a fairly large background in offroading.. and i know about sammi's and trackers, and there weak points, idk how many trackers/sammi's ive pulled out of ruts because of broken input shafts. my friend used to have a lifted, hot rod Sammi (with a tracker trans), and he used to go thru a transmission every month or so, or 1 good weekend if we went sorta hard on it.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 27, 2011, 12:37:35 pm
All,

    I have contacted several metalworking places about the possibility of heat treating the tranny input shaft then cryo treating it to make it stronger by getting rid of weak spots (stress points)  in the metal.  It can be done for under $100.00.  It is good insurance when I rebuild the tranny.  As long as i do not go overboard on HP / TQ, should hold.  We will have to see.  We will not be mudding or anything, just going over back woods trails, creek beds, streams...no rock crawling.  When I have it apart, I can also take it up to a machine shop and see how much to have one made out of 300M.  Still has to be cheaper than a whole new driveline.

    Like Theman53 said, if it grenades, tell the wife I knew we should have went with the Toyo upgrades!

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 27, 2011, 01:02:10 pm
All,

    Does anyone know what metal / strength the input shaft on the 93 Tracker is normally made of?  Would 4140, 4340 or 300M be improvements?  Finally, does anyone know of a reputable machine shop that can make a duplicate input shaft out of these harder materials?

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 27, 2011, 01:21:48 pm
you dont want a DUPLICATE shaft..

the shaft is so weak because it necks down so small after the splines..

if you took the input shaft, and where it necks down, made it straight, it would be much MUCH tougher..

the splines are prolly 7/8" diameter, and the shaft below them is prolly 3/8" diameter.. the smallest part of the shaft is where it is very weak.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 27, 2011, 01:22:22 pm
exactly what i was getting at, the transmission being the weakest link of the drivetrain..

the input shaft of the trans is going to be the first piece to break, its for sure the smallest and weakest part in the drivetrain.

the only reason im saying any of this, is because i have a fairly large small background in offroading.. and i know about sammi's and trackers, and there weak points, idk how many trackers/sammi's ive pulled out of ruts because of broken input shafts. my friend used to have a lifted, hot rod Sammi (with a tracker trans), and he used to go thru a transmission every month or so, or 1 good weekend if we went sorta hard on it.

fixed it for ya...those sammi's and trackers are usually the smallest things we can wheel around here. I think most of the 4x4 quads have them beat lol. Just playing.

I can have my friend make you a shaft and have it cryo treated as I will be a rep for a cryo treatment place after this thursday. The cryo place charges by the pound so it will be cheap on that. The machine shop is 100.00/hour shop rate, but he does good work. At that same time by the time he is done you may just be further ahead to see if it breaks or not.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 27, 2011, 01:59:45 pm
All,

    I have a pic of the shaft but do not have rights to post it.  I know the geared part will press off leaving the splined shaft itself.  Man...could you ask your friend what the estimate would be on price?  What would he mill it out of (4140, 4340 or 300M)?  It has to be serious strong steel and like R.O.R. said, it would have to remain solid after the splines.....not necked down. Hard to talk about it without a pic for you all to see.
Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 27, 2011, 03:20:07 pm
you are going to be super glad I/we harped on you about this when you are done with the project..

because ive had a few friends that have been there and done that with the sammi/tracker diesel swap.

jasons engine wasnt even a diesel and it still ate thru trannies like wildfire.

the stock tracker trans works good if you use a stock TD, or a stock/built n/a..

anything im putting in a tracker, is NOT gonna be stock, not by a long shot.
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Vincent Waldon on February 27, 2011, 03:25:42 pm
    I have a pic of the shaft but do not have rights to post it. 

No special rights are required... there's a thread in the FAQ section on how to post pictures.   ;)
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: R.O.R-2.0 on February 27, 2011, 04:16:11 pm
exactly what i was getting at, the transmission being the weakest link of the drivetrain..

the input shaft of the trans is going to be the first piece to break, its for sure the smallest and weakest part in the drivetrain.

the only reason im saying any of this, is because i have a fairly large small background in offroading.. and i know about sammi's and trackers, and there weak points, idk how many trackers/sammi's ive pulled out of ruts because of broken input shafts. my friend used to have a lifted, hot rod Sammi (with a tracker trans), and he used to go thru a transmission every month or so, or 1 good weekend if we went sorta hard on it.

fixed it for ya...those sammi's and trackers are usually the smallest things we can wheel around here. I think most of the 4x4 quads have them beat lol. Just playing.

I can have my friend make you a shaft and have it cryo treated as I will be a rep for a cryo treatment place after this thursday. The cryo place charges by the pound so it will be cheap on that. The machine shop is 100.00/hour shop rate, but he does good work. At that same time by the time he is done you may just be further ahead to see if it breaks or not.

i dont wheel sammi's or trackers.. i like toyotas the best, thats all ive ever had, and the only think ive broke on a toyota, was front differentials.. toyotas with tall, skinny tires go like a MOFO in the mud.

i live in the wettest state on the planet, i think i would know what mud is, and how to use it properly  ;D
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: Armyhelopilot on February 27, 2011, 11:18:02 pm
Vince,

    Vince, I read the FAQs and it didn't help.  When I click the attch, no pic comes up...just  (http://).  The pic is not on a web hosting site.  It is on my desktop.  We will see if this posts....

ROR...I appreciate the advice, I do not consider it 'harping".  I would hate to put a few thousand dollars into this and have it constantly go through trannies.  When I get done rebuilding a car, I want to be able to consider it "DONE" until a catastrophic failure or normal wear and tear happens to break something.  I have other vehicle projects to move on to like my F350 and a Cummins 4BT!!

Bob
Title: Re: 1.6L IDI upgrades and mods
Post by: theman53 on February 28, 2011, 09:38:17 am
I always put mine on a pic hosting site. Mybook, friendspace, < joking there.
But myspace and facebook and photobucket are good places to put stuff. Then you just go to the properties and copy the URL and paste it in that [ i m g  ]     [/ i m g] in between the brackets and your are good...obviously taking the spacing out so it works.