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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: BuckyMK2 on July 18, 2023, 01:29:17 pm
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Hello all,
I'm getting ready to turbo my 1.6NA and I'd like to run my list of parts + maintenance by the IDI pros!
The car is a 1989 Jetta with mileage somewhere in the low 300k miles range. Original motor and trans. I just tested the oil pressure, got about 20psi at warm idle and 45psi at 2k warm revs. After a very spirited drive, I got 16psi idle and 40psi at 2k revs. I'm going to compression test the motor as well in the coming days. Before I throw the turbo parts on it, I'm planning to do the head gasket (not blown, but who knows the last time it was replaced.) I'm planning on just using a regular gasket and head bolts, as I'm gonna be pretty conservative with the boost setup being that it is an NA motor (no oil squirters, NA head.) Also going to do timing belt and tensioner, and checking the IM shaft/crank seals for oil leaks while I'm in there.
Here's the parts list, all the turbo parts will be coming off of a 91 ecodiesel:
K14 turbo
Exhaust manifold (will be tapping an EGT probe)
Intake manifold (will be tapping a boost gauge)
Oil pan (has bung for oil return line)
Oil filter housing (has hole for oil feed line)
Valve cover (with CCV puck) and cam splash guard if I can get them, or I might try to use an 8v cover and puck - need to research more
2.5 inch downpipe
Oil cooler (aftermarket, bc the 1.6NA doesn't even come with one and the OEM one isn't great from what I've heard)
Going to be using my NA Giles pump and NA injectors
Also will be installing an oil temperature gauge so I can keep an eye on that
I'm not planning on pushing too much more than stock boost, I'll see what my EGTs and oil temps look like and go from there. I'm aware that I'm not going to make much power from this, but the long term plan is to eventually swap in a TD long block, in which case I can use all of these parts. Also turbo noises are fun ;D
What do you think of the setup? Any other maintenance items I should look for while I have the head off? Advice on what to do about the CCV puck? Any other parts I should pull off the TD?
I've been lurking this forum for a while and have gotten lots of good advice, so any insight would be much appreciated!
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OK, Bucky, I see the oil pan and the filter flange but what about the oil feed and drain lines? If you come off the top of the oil flange and into a cooler then out to the turbo I think that would be desirable. Cool oil to the turbo. The diameter of the line can be 3/16 or 1/4 inch inside diameter. The oil is under pressure at that point.
But on the bottom end, you need to go bigger. Like a 3/4 fitting to a 5/8 inch diameter line. Why? Because you are only draining under the pull of gravity and you shouldn't restrict the flow with a small diameter line. I run big on the bottom.
I would measure the amount of protrusion that you have on the pistons before I ordered a new gasket. Or just get a 1, 2, and 3-notch set and return the ones you don't use.
Using your NA pump and injectors will mean you will need to turn the fuel up to the pump. You won't really get the full effect of the boost feeling without a Boost pump adding the extra fuel when the boost comes on. That doesn't mean it won't help performance, and maybe mileage too, but it won't push you back in the seat like it should.
The oil temp gauge is optional. But nice to know what temp it is going to the turbo. Make darn sure you put oil in that top end of the turbo before you fire it up. I use a syringe and pump 3 to 5 mm of it in there and let it drain out. It should be oiled before you start spinning it up.
That's all I can think of for now.
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Thank you! I'll definitely be doing that for the head gasket, and thank you for the advice on the oil lines.
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Another thing I’m looking to do is fit up some sort of CCV puck system, mostly to prevent runaway. I heard I could use an 8v valve cover, and use the puck setup off of an ABA. Where would I route the hoses in this case?
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It sounds like you have done your research.
I like the ABA puck.
It has three ports:
One comes up from the front of the block,
like the old 1.5s got in the recall to stop runaways.
I plumb it into block using the port near the vacuum pump.
One goes to the intake, there should be a port for it in the hose after the air filter.
I didn't see an airbox in your list. Or pipe from box to turbo.
The MK2 TD air filter box is one of the hard things to find. I hope your donor has one.
And the one on the bottom drains liquid oil back into the block.
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I actually did source a 1.6td airbox! I have the intake hose as well. I also sourced a 1.6td CCV puck, which I’m gonna mount to a G60 valve cover (that way I can use the better gasket, and it looks cool.) Can anyone verify if the 1.6td puck will fit up to the G60 valve cover? In effort to keep things as OEM as possible, I think I’m gonna go with the stock oil feed and return lines. My question is, are these the same between K14 and K24? I want to take the oil feed line from a 1.6td with the K24 and run it on my K14. Also, would it be better to spend a little more on an eBay turbo than a used one? I don’t really know the condition of the used ones, apparently they have minimal to no shaft play but they probably haven’t been on a car in years. I’ve heard the eBay ones are fine if you’re not pushing lots of boost. I will be around 10psi, very close to stock.
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Oh good, you have the airbox.
Not sure if that puck fits the G60.
You can use the 2.0 rubber gasket with any of the valve covers.
"Here's the parts list, all the turbo parts will be coming off of a 91 ecodiesel:"
Why aren't you using the oil feed line and turbo from the '91 eco donor car?
Wondering why you are shopping for another turbo on ebay.
...and not sure about the oil feed and drain lines k24 vs k14. K14s are kinda rare, I've never seen one.
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The eco isn’t all the way together, I’m getting the parts from a few different places and piecing together everything I need. I’m going with an eBay turbo, as most of the used ones either have a bit of shaft play or are the same price as the eBay one.
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All turbos have play from the factory. Generally speaking, 1.6/aaz shafts hold up quite well if used with relatively stock boost levels. Check also axial play, it should be less than the radial.
I wouldn't trust an ebay turbo in general, but especially not on a hot diesel. The turbos are out there...k24's are fairly easy to find, k14s less so but are better suited to the 1.6. Both have similar wastegate issues...some develop them some dont. If i was to get anything turbo related from ebay it might be a wastegate. You can test my pressuring the little hard line.
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Ok, in that case I might be more patient and look for a solid OEM K14. Can anyone verify that the K24 oil feed line will fit the K14? And will the K24 oil return line also fit?
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The supply and drain lines will be close but not necessarily identical because the bodies of the k14 and 24 are different ie the k14 is smaller but Im not sure about the centre section where these connect. I dont have any k24's right now to compare with the k14s I have here to give you a definite answer.
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You got any K14s for sale?
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Yes but they are AAZ. The drain flange isca different style...for aaz its a 2 part drain...a shaft that screws in to the housing and a flex section with large banjo that bolts to the back of the block...1.6 goes down to thevpan. For 1.6 I believe its only the ecodiesels that had k14's and Garrett T2's. I don't know how many ecodiesels we got up here in Canada.
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I have a way to get a 1.6td K14 oil return line. Could I run an AAZ K14 on a 1.6 if I used this return line?
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Sorry for the late reply. 1.6 and AAZ returns are completely different.
Im terms of oil supply, you can see the body of the k24 is larger and comes in at a different angle so that would likely have to be a custom braided line.
(https://i.ibb.co/Jy4vB29/20230730-094305.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gPpSjwx)
(https://i.ibb.co/7gmwDw0/20230730-094251.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pWFtTtk)
(https://i.ibb.co/RSyGRLP/20230730-094244.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N3Sgcwp)
(https://i.ibb.co/dMtyDFM/20230730-094238.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tKz5DgK)
(https://i.ibb.co/fkngjVB/20230730-094228.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gSP2kbH)
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Bit of a noob question. I had all my injectors and glow plugs out for cleaning and compression testing. Since I plan on pulling the head once I have parts on the way, I didn’t reconnect my glow plug bus bar. I did, however, thread the glow plugs in a bit to prevent air from leaking. I connected everything back up and I’m getting a crank no start. Pulled the fuel feed line that goes from the pump to injector #4, and no fuel is coming out. Is it normal to have to gravity feed the system after replacing things like injectors? Do I need to have the bus bar connected for the fuel shutoff solenoid to work or something? Not sure if the two are related. Should I be getting 12v to the shutoff solenoid when the car is in accessory? I get 12v to the top of the solenoid when the car is off, but I get 0v when it’s in accessory. Is this normal?
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So you get 12 volts at the stop solenoid on the pump when the car is turned off?
And no voltage when the key is turned to acc, basically where the key is when driving?
That's not normal.
You can't gravity feed the fuel system, it runs uphill from the tank to the pump.
To prime the pump; I put a vacuum on the output of the pump and pull fuel through the whole system.
Do you have clear fuel lines to and from the pump?
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I filled the pump to prime it a few times and it started up fine. Compression tested it while warm and got better psi than when it was cold. Got up to 450 psi after a few cranks. Got my G60 valve cover in for the CCV puck setup, more parts are in the works.
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I've had a change of plans in my parts sourcing, it looks like I'll be getting a complete EcoDiesel 1.6td. Supposedly the motor ran when pulled ;D, but that was 10+ years ago, so it's been sitting for a very long time. My initial plan was to pull the manifolds/turbo/oil pan etc and put them on my 1.6d, which has good oil pressure and compression (and then rebuilding the TD long block once I'm ready for more power or the NA blows up.) Is it even worth it to spend time trying to get the engine running on a stand and compression tested when I know I have a good NA motor? I've never dealt with something that's sat for this long...
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Yeah, you hate to rebuild an engine if it's good.
I usually try turning the crank with a socket to check compression.
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Parts sourcing has been an adventure but I'm starting to get things finalized. Picking up an OEM EcoDiesel K14 in need of a rebuild this weekend, I'll send it off to GPopShop once progress starts to pick up. The seller switched from K14 to K24 but didn't have to change the oil return line which I found surprising, I've heard from multiple people that they are not interchangeable. I keep trying to diagnose my glow plug issue even though my car is 400 miles away...can anyone confirm or deny that a bad glow plug relay causes the glow plug dash light to go out? (CE2)
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Bucky I had a bad connection in the base of the GP relay and the light on the dash would not light up. If I reached up under the dash and pushed on the base it would connect some wire and I could start the truck in the cold at least. I have since pulled all the wires off the base and have it sitting on my workbench. All connections are just crimped and taped to the rest of the relay without the plastic base on it.
The problem I had was some of the connections lacked that little metal finger, read that middle finger if you will, because that is what it was telling me. I could insert the wire connection on the spade in the relay but it would just pull or work its way back out again at the worst possible time.
Cold mornings and late to work generally.
I have not had any issues since I have the wires all taped up now.
And I am not getting to work late either.
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Interesting, I'll check the connection before ordering another relay. Thanks!
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Picked up the K14 today ;D found some interesting stuff. The seller said it was leaking oil so he assumed the seals were bad. However, the turbo has virtually no shaft play (aside from the amount that's to be expected.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's usually excessive shaft play that causes oil seals to go bad. I'm really wondering if there was something going on with the return line. I've heard from multiple people on this forum, as well as a shop that specializes in these IDIs that the oil return line is NOT compatible between K14s and K24s. The seller said he didn't change the return line when he swapped turbos. I wish I knew the difference between the return lines to find out if it's "possible" to connect one turbo to the other return line, but the seal isn't good or there's a difference in the diameter of the ports. If anyone knows please let me know!
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If you get on it, raise the EGTs and turbo temperature then shut it off,
the exhaust seal can carbon up, it's the closest seal to the exhaust.
Then it will leak into the exhaust.
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Not sure if you can swap between turbos using the same oil line.
I check for an oil leak by applying about 5 to 10 lbs of air pressure on the inlet of the oil line and plugging the outlet. Then I listen to it for leaks. Then I slowly put up to 20 lbs on there. I know sometimes the oil pressure will be much higher but for a quick test this seems to tell me what I need to know.
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I've done a NA to turbo conversion recently (nearly done), here's some things that might help you;
Oil feed line:
I converted everything to AN4.
I dont use oil source at oil filter, but I think its M10x1:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000557788387.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.17.292279d2mrucmK
I got the 36 inch;
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005195080278.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.210.292279d2mrucmK
Also my turbo (VNT15) takes M10x10
What I do is I run it from the head's oil sensor;
(https://i.imgur.com/sMBN6DS.png)
My head is mechanic so I figure it doesn't need as much oil as the hydraulic one.
Valve cover
Turbo will pressure the crank case more than NA, the camshaft plastic plates all got warped, so I added first an oil catch can instead. Although it filters out all the oil there's alot of it. After adding the puck before the oilcatchcan it almost got rid of all the oil; I got the OE 028 129 101 E one from the Golf 4 https://www.autodoc.nl/febi-bilstein/8764455
You can take the old breatherhose and it will fit this puck really nicely.
Maybe you can only with the puck (and no oil catch can). I did a little test and it doesn't seem to throw oil like before;
Before; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDFbu9EiCSU
After; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g3YFQouhjo
Oil cooler
I've done some investigations on the oil cooler, what water coolant pipes to route it over etc etc. From what I understand it's mostly used to get the oil temperature up to speed quicker. If you don't overheat things and change oil frequently I think it should be fine.
Oil pan connector
I converted things to AN10;
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32402577938.html?spm=a2g0o.order_detail.order_detail_item.9.6ac9f19cxpE3s6 for the turbo
I got the "no weld" fitting;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6AflG3k3io
To be honest, for my piece of mind I would get a welded one. The teflon seal is very flimsy and if you overtorque it (like I did) it gets squashed. No oil leaks though (yet) but I'll probably redo it with a welded one in the future.
Also to get the return line just the right length is kindof hard, its now like this and leaking a from the return connector of the turbo. I'll properly tighten up everything soon
(https://i.imgur.com/0xjeGur.png)
The original one (the right with red connectors) was rubbing against the driveshaft
I also added a blow of valve on the intake side to 14psi (1 bar) to prevent overboost. No intercooler though, I'll run it at low boost (5 - 10psi). Piping is as follows (I can give you all the specific items if you want);
(https://i.imgur.com/AkBc9jt.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/fEN9dr3.png)
Note the fuel filter, it's very sturdy even on 1 leg
Final result is here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YULKMPq0eE4
After attaching downpipe the turbo spool sound disappeared :( I'll maybe do a muffler delete later on (and keep the resonator)
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That's how I have to mount my fuel filter too.
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Thanks for all the help! Since I have a donor 1.6td I was just gonna use the PCV setup from that. Would you still recommend adding a catch can? And I’ve heard similar things about the oil cooler being more of an oil heater haha.
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Thanks for all the help! Since I have a donor 1.6td I was just gonna use the PCV setup from that. Would you still recommend adding a catch can? And I’ve heard similar things about the oil cooler being more of an oil heater haha.
hey, I did some tests today. Both puck & catchcan is way too restrictive. There's almost no crank case gasses that get through.
I'm going to run with PCV puck only for now, it seems to remove like 90% of the oil that gets pushed out.
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Hey guys, unfortunately I can't figure out how to add any pictures to my posts ??? but I had a quick question. I mocked up my turbo diesel airbox (same one from this picture https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.9af96bc4cfa0d7b49a3ff1746bd2f16a?rik=MFIR4zSfmleLoQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fi.imgur.com%2fm1ZGo.jpg&ehk=IL65yaj%2f%2bviWvxIP0TJYIEISKnaN1gdArILvWGxyyp0%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0 ) and intake hose just to see how it fit in the bay. I'm a bit confused if I'm missing a piece that joins the hole in the fender to the exit hose of the airbox, or if there's any way that the box mounts to the chassis. Once again its hard to describe without pictures so sorry about that. Also I had to remove this "air cleaner" (according to ancient VW part number 068-130-141) that was bolted to the fuel filter bracket. What's that, and does it matter if I remove it ;D
Thanks for all the help
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post pictures to a third-party site, like Dropbox. Then copy the link from there and put it in between the two brackets that say img when you click on the box below the Bold box on the left side of those selections above.
(http://link goes in here)
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A search showed this vortex thread that lists that part number and has a picture.
https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/the-claude-build-thread.9543445/
Post #8 has a picture of the part.
I've never seen one before. Not sure what air it would filter.
There is supposed to be a plastic piece on the inner fender, that the airbox intake hooks to.
I think it's the same place an NA intake connects to.
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Sweet, I have that plastic piece from the NA so I’ll try to make them connect. Thanks for the help with the photos.
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I’ve been hotwiring the plugs for a bit since it’s getting cold again. So far I’ve replaced the glow plug relay, metal fuse on the firewall, and the coolant temp sensor. I’ve been following the troubleshooting guide from the Bentley. I have continuity from terminal 87 to the glow plug fuse, so there’s no issue in the wire there. I do NOT have continuity from terminal T and ground, signifying an issue with the temperature sensor or wire. I’ve already replaced this but I went ahead and disconnected the connector because that should open the circuit and the light should come on (right? Even if I’m wrong I jumped the terminals in the connector and still didn’t get a light on the dash.) I checked to see if I have voltage between terminals 30 and 85 (power from battery and ground within the socket in the relay panel.) Zero voltage. “Either the fuses are blown, there is a break or a short in the wiring to the positive battery terminal, or the ground from terminal 85 is faulty.” Any ideas what I should check next? I’m not really sure how to approach the possible problems that the Bentley states. At this point I just want to manually wire them to a switch on the dash but I don’t want to give up on this.
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No continuity from T to ground? Was the temp sender wire grounded at the sensor (not on the sensor) when you did this?
When my T sensor is disconnected the dash light comes on and the glow plug relay closes.
Instead of checking voltage between 30 and 85.
Measure voltage from 30 to ground and 85 to ground.
On my factory setup (rabbit MK1) the glow plug fuse is after the glow plug relay, just before the glow plugs.
You might have the glow plug power supply wire disconnected from the battery.
You jumped some terminal on the back of the glow plug relay.
Were they 30 and 85?
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I found some incorrect wiring in my CE2 box. I jumped the wire from 30 to 30B on the back of the fuse box that was previously in the wrong spot, and now I have power to the relay. However, I ONLY get power to the relay when I test grounds outside of the fuse box. When I test terminal 85, the ground of the glow plug relay, my multimeter shows 0 volts. According to the circuit diagram in my Bentley, it looks like terminal 85 grounds to the temperature sensor itself. I got continuity from the blue/white wire in the back of the fuse box to the temp sensor connector. I still don't get continuity from T to ground, regardless of if the engine temp sensor is connected or disconnected. I'm pretty stumped on what's wrong with the ground. Could the temp sensor being bad cause this?
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So you have fat red wire to the relay and it now has power because you moved (is that what jumped means?) the source to 30 B on the fuse box right?
I don't understand why that fat red wire only has power when you are testing ground wires outside the fuse box.
85 shows 0 volts when you have a good ground connection on your negative lead on your meter?
I don't believe 85 goes to the temp sensor. I believe that is ground for the glow plug relay coil,.. always grounded.
85 is the ground for nearly all relays, they go to 31/ground.
T goes to the temp sensor, blue/white.
"I got continuity from the blue/white wire in the back of the fuse box to the temp sensor connector"
Continuity from the blue/white to what temp sensor connector?
The one in the engine bay? The one on the back of the relay?
Do you mean you got it from the back of the glow plug relay,.. or really from the fuse box?
You have to be more clear about what you are doing, earlier you were testing your grounds,.. not sure what that means.
For voltage? For continuity to ground?
I'm sure it makes sense to you but I'm lost on where your meter wires are connected and what you are testing for.
What's the ohms of the temp sensor?
Measuring from the connector to ground.
Sometimes folks think they need teflon tape on the sensor.
That can keep it from grounding.
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Ignore the part about jumping 30 to 30B, I put the wires back where they were and I have voltage from 30 to ground by the fuse box (I just wasn't grounding the black multimeter lead well enough.)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y8fv1bgbvdv5p5ogxh896/IMG_5618.jpg?rlkey=38ge6ime5v5yt2xbq0c5mbu9y&dl=0)
Here's the circuit diagram. I was looking at the "85" that's circled at the bottom of the page on circuit path 35, it's listed as an "engine compartment harness ground." But now I see that the relay is grounded to 31 at the top of the diagram. Does 31 refer to a specific ground near the fuse box?
I noticed some fraying in the insulation of the wires going into the coolant temperature sensor (on the coolant flange) so I went ahead and cut them and I'll repin the connector tomorrow. The wires are currently loose and not grounded to anything. I noticed I could hear the relay turning on and off (not sure if this has anything to do with the wires being loose, I guess I'll find out after I repin the connector.) I measured 12V to the bus bar for about 20 seconds, just how its supposed to be, then it dropped to 0 when the relay opened as expected. I was able to start the car with ease, but then the 12V returned to the bus bar while the car was running. I know the MK3s have "afterglow" where the plugs stay on for a few minutes after start, but I was under the impression that the MK2s didn't. So I'm pretty sure I have an issue there where the plugs are constantly on when the car is running. I should note the dash light still never comes on, I'm gonna ensure the bulb isn't burnt out and I have continuity from the relay to the cluster tomorrow. Also going to repin that coolant temp sensor connector and replace the sensor itself for peace of mind.
Sorry for being unclear, I don't really know what I'm talking about and it's even harder to put it into text. I really appreciate you trying to help me out though.
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Good to read that it did cycle as it should.
The second cycle might have been the relay kicking back on for some reason. The wire unattached? Get it nailed down as the snow has already started in some areas in the USA. Maybe in your neck of the woods.
I need to double check the bus bar on my pickup. I have to hold the start button longer now than I used to and I am wondering if I have a good 12 vdc out there. Or maybe a bad glow plugs. I did replace one earlier last summer so there might be another to do now. Glad I bought spares.
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Great to hear you actually got power to the glow plugs.
If the key is turned off, then back on, the glow plugs will recycle.
So I would suspect maybe a loose 15 (ignition on) wire.
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I put a timing light on mine today and found it to be at 1-2 Degrees BTC. Double-checked it with the Snap-On meter. So I pushed the pump towards the engine and now it starts on the first touch of the switch.
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Finally figured it out. I repinned the connector to the coolant temp sensor. I knew it worked because when I cycled the plugs for a second time, they only stayed on for a couple seconds. Previously when the sensor was disconnected/broken, the plugs would run for the normal 20ish seconds regardless of how many times they had been cycled. I ran the car for a few minutes and the plugs shut off. I guess the later CE2 MK2s do have the “afterglow” where the plugs stay on until the engine reaches a certain temp. My dash light still doesn’t work, so I’ll replace that sometime soon to make sure that the bulb was the problem. In the meantime I’m just happy to not have to pull the relay every time I drive haha. Thanks for all the help guys, glad this old forum is still alive and well.
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Glad you sorted it out. I got mine running so well that I had trouble slowing it down. So I went to work on the brakes. I think I have that done and will just enjoy it for a while until something else breaks/ goes wonky on me.