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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: LucasMolen on July 13, 2017, 03:28:52 pm
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Hello, my name is Lucas. I'm from the netherlands and drive a (currently) 1100cc petrol powered Golf MK1. Because of the way road taxes here work and the amount of km I need to drive next year, I want to swap in a 1.9 TDI engine.
I have been offered a 1.9L 110hp AFN engine which came straight out of a Jetta 1, so they fit the Mk1 chassis already. Plus it's dirt cheap.
Aside from if the Engine is good, I would like to ask about my possibilities. I would like to go m-tdi because the harness and ecu are gone with this engine. Plus it adds a certain amount of 'period correctnes' to the car.
As I read in the sticky threads that there are a couple of difficulties with controlling the standard turbo. Is this correct? Will changing to a waste gate operated turbo solve this issue?
Can someone give me advice about what pump to use? I read about an elusive pump from a VW LT 2.8L that nobody seems to be able to find, or a Land Rover 300 tdi pump. Could you give me advice for this specific engine?
Thank you in advance!
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The LR pump is the easy way to go for sure. There's still some work involved but it's a pretty good match to the engine "out of the box" so to speak. To use one you need:
- machine the opening in the pump mount bracket larger as the Rover pump has a larger snout
- swap the delivery valves on the pump with ones off a VW pump
- get a pump hub and sprocket from a Mk4 car (ALH is the engine code here but might be different there) - it's a two piece sprocket which is adjusted to set the timing.
Yes, it is much easier to run a wastegate turbo. You can use the VNT but it is a ton of work.
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The LR pump is the easy way to go for sure. There's still some work involved but it's a pretty good match to the engine "out of the box" so to speak. To use one you need:
- machine the opening in the pump mount bracket larger as the Rover pump has a larger snout
- swap the delivery valves on the pump with ones off a VW pump
- get a pump hub and sprocket from a Mk4 car (ALH is the engine code here but might be different there) - it's a two piece sprocket which is adjusted to set the timing.
Yes, it is much easier to run a wastegate turbo. You can use the VNT but it is a ton of work.
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I just found this website yesterday because a friend on a dutch forum told me to look for diesel info here and I have to say that I love this community already. From what I found up to now the amount of helpfulness and discussion without resulting in a swearing match is amazing.
Can you recommend a specific turbo to match the engine and pump? I am still reading all the stuf that might be considered 'basics' by your standards, but I'm trying to learn quickly. My budget isn't extremely big, so I would like to match the parts as good as possible from the start. If I understand correctly, a turbo with internal wastegate would be easiest, is that correct?
I researched a bit here and it seems the ALH engine is used in a lot of cars of that generation here as wel (golf 4, polo, bora, caddy). So that shouldn't be a problem to source. I'll have to translate pump hub and sprocket to something someone here could understand. Technical lingo is often hard to translate if you aren't educated in the car field. :P
Can the delivery valves be used from the AFN pump, or do they have to come from another engine/pump?
Would I be able to at least het the stock hp/tq numbers?
To be clear, my goal is to get the most bang for my buck. I don't really have power numbers I want to hit. I just want it to be as smooth as possible and be as fuel efficient as possible with the mechanical setup.
If I can get more power with a similar investment (for example if multiple possible turbo's are about the same price) I'll obviously go for more power.
Thank you for the help!
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"pump hub and sprocket"? as vanbcguy says " it's a two piece sprocket which is adjusted to set the timing" .
On older VAG engines you set timing by turning the hole pump - its mounted in long holes. On ALH pump is fixed and timing is set by turning the hub relativ to the spocket (the part that timing belt is running on). The spocket has the long holes.
My Translater says hub = naaf, sprocket = tandwiel
Go for the ALH. The older 1,5 .1,6 and 1,9 are built in the same way. With the ALH you dont have the intermediate shaft with the problems associated with that (bearings).
vanbcguy. "- swap the delivery valves on the pump with ones off a VW pump" Why? Should I do it on my AHU with LT 2,8 pump too?
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(http://i68.tinypic.com/xdw1lt.jpg)
A pic of my AHU, LT2,8 pump and ALH hub/sprocket.
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The delivery valve swap is because the Land Rover valves are about an inch longer than the VW ones. Technically I suppose you could bend the injector lines to fit but they're crack prone enough as it is. I gave it a shot and gave up when I did mine. The VW delivery valves are the right length to make the lines fit properly. They can come from any VW pump though rumor has it the 10mm TDI pumps have the best flowing valves.
Turbo selection requires a set of goals. How much power do you want, how much are you planning on building up / reinforcing the engine, what if any intercooler are you planning on running?
The Rover pump is calibrated for 120hp before you touch it so it'll happily beat a stock E-TDI.
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Thanks Bryn. Fuel lines to my LT 2,8 pump are installed and fits perfect so everything should be okey.
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Thanks Bryn and BGA, that cleared things up nicely. I am leaning towards using an LT2.8 pump. They should be available here and from what I read in other topics it seems like the easiest option. BGA, do you have a build thread with more pictures and information? I am very curious to see what you've done so far.
If I understand correctly, the LT pump fits in the AFN bracket without modifications? I just found the service manual for the AGK engine and everythings seems perfect for my purposes. The standard LT turbo is wastegate controlled and the boost pressure enrichtment seems easily adaptable to the 1.9 engine.
My car is originally a petrol engine. Can you guys give me some pointers regarding the glow plug system and adapting it to my puposes? Can I take it straight from another car?
Thanks in advance!
Edit: Is the LT pump slotted to change timing, or do I still have to use an MK4 adjustable sprocket?
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I believe the LT pump is slotted though the ALH style sprocket is miles easier to deal with. I'd still use it even with a stock E-TDI pump.
What was the redline of the AGK?
Glow plugs aren't a huge issue for direct injection engines. They'll help reduce smoke at startup a little but unless you regularly get temperatures well below freezing they aren't strictly necessary.
A simple circuit with a suitable relay (needs to be rated at 60A or higher) and a manual momentary pushbutton would suffice if you're going for simple.
Alternatively you can find a glow plug relay and socket from a Mk2; they have a connection to the coolant sensor and automatically adjust the glow cycle (with afterglow too). It'll use the plugs way more than the TDI actually needs but that won't hurt anything.
I use the factory AAZ glow plug stuff on my M-TDI. Hard to get myself out of the habit of waiting for the light to go out though!
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Lucas, I have no build thread. I will post pics thou.
" I just found the service manual for the AGK ". I think you have no use of this engine, just only the pump. The LT pump is slotted, but use the ALH hub/sprocket as Bryn suggest. You get the best of two worlds! I like the big mass in the ALH system - it lessens the uneven torque used by the pump - it works as a flywheel - gives longer belt life ( sorry I cant explain it better with my swinglish).
Glowplugg. Do it the simple way Bryn suggests. No lights, no timing relays, that's why we like mTDIs isn't it?
As the plugs draws many amps you get a good idea on what is going on by the warning lights in dash panel, they are dimmed if at least some plugs are working. I have had it in my Volvo/ VW 1,6 TD for more than 10 years.
Bryn, "What was the redline of the AGK?" This is from the
VW LT leaflet:"(125 PS) bei 3500 1/min. (rev.limit 3800)"
My engine will go into a Volvo 745. With that big engine compartment I have a lot more freedom to build the engine than you have. Keep that in mind when you see my pics!
Its only in rear end of engine block I am short of space.
Stil to design: mechanical VNT control. 1000 lines of code and 400 soldering points keeps me away from electronic control.
PD inlet manifold, Volvo D5 GT2252v turbo
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2vrztoo.jpg)
(http://i63.tinypic.com/200d9c9.jpg)
(http://i63.tinypic.com/mvq695.jpg)
LT slotted holes
(http://i67.tinypic.com/317gtub.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/24fh1ya.jpg)
pump injection start markings
(http://i68.tinypic.com/97mw05.jpg)
TDC
(http://i64.tinypic.com/5nkbh2.jpg)
EM turned upside down
(http://i64.tinypic.com/vrsevs.jpg)
grinding of EM necassary around IM bolts. Homemade adapter EM to turbo
(http://i66.tinypic.com/snp8vc.jpg)
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Ok - a 3800 RPM rev limit means the injection pump will need some tweaking to be truly useful. These engines will happily do 5200 RPM without issue, if the pump cuts fuel at 3800 you'll be leaving a lot of performance / driveablity on the table.
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Lucas, I have no build thread. I will post pics thou.
" I just found the service manual for the AGK ". I think you have no use of this engine, just only the pump. The LT pump is slotted, but use the ALH hub/sprocket as Bryn suggest. You get the best of two worlds! I like the big mass in the ALH system - it lessens the uneven torque used by the pump - it works as a flywheel - gives longer belt life ( sorry I cant explain it better with my swinglish).
Glowplugg. Do it the simple way Bryn suggests. No lights, no timing relays, that's why we like mTDIs isn't it?
As the plugs draws many amps you get a good idea on what is going on by the warning lights in dash panel, they are dimmed if at least some plugs are working. I have had it in my Volvo/ VW 1,6 TD for more than 10 years.
Bryn, "What was the redline of the AGK?" This is from the
VW LT leaflet:"(125 PS) bei 3500 1/min. (rev.limit 3800)"
My engine will go into a Volvo 745. With that big engine compartment I have a lot more freedom to build the engine than you have. Keep that in mind when you see my pics!
Its only in rear end of engine block I am short of space.
Stil to design: mechanical VNT control. 1000 lines of code and 400 soldering points keeps me away from electronic control.
PD inlet manifold, Volvo D5 GT2252v turbo
(Pics)
Thank you for the pictures and the great info BGA. To me it seems the LT pump will fit my needs the best. I already contact a local diesel specialist to inquire about having pump checked and changing the rev limiting. It seems pretty costly, but I feel this is the way to go for me.
@vanbcguy: That's definitely true. So I will need to have that fixed.
Do you guys have experience with turbo's without vnt that more or less fit plug and play on the stock exhaust manifold of the AFN engine? I would like to have around 125-150hp. Could you recommend a turbo to me as a place to start my research? Could I still use the standard AFN nozzles, or do I have to upgrade these too?
Edit: I was looking at the other 'standard' turbo's from the 1.9 TDI family, but I can't really see which turbo's are useable. As far as I know most are electronically controlled and I really need a wastegate actuated turbo as far as I can tell.
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You'll likely have to go a bit custom on the turbo as there weren't really any stock wastegate options around that power level. Making an adapter or having one made isn't THAT difficult though - you're just talking about a flat piece of steel with some holes in it.
The go-to wastegate turbo lately has been one of the smaller Holset ones - search Holset on here and you should find the model number etc.
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You'll likely have to go a bit custom on the turbo as there weren't really any stock wastegate options around that power level. Making an adapter or having one made isn't THAT difficult though - you're just talking about a flat piece of steel with some holes in it.
The go-to wastegate turbo lately has been one of the smaller Holset ones - search Holset on here and you should find the model number etc.
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I have searched, but couldn't really find the specific Holset type. I have been looking through the forum and other forums to get some pointers to what turbo would be appropriate. I have been looking at multiple possibilities. If I ask my question differently, maybe you can give a more concrete recommendation. If I plan on using the stock AFN nozzles and want to run a LT pump, could you give me some options (or specific threads with info) for turbo's that would fit my car/setup? Would the holset be one of the best choices in your opinion? I'm sorry if I sound like a spoilt kid who seems like he doesn't want to put in the work. I am really looking at a lot of info, but my lack of true experience with a project like this might make me blind to obvious stuff.
Edit: I was also pointed in the direction of a GT2052 or K16. Would these be a candidate?
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Stock nozzles are fine to start with, though you'll probably want to upgrade over time. The issue running the stockers is injection duration - the smaller the nozzle the longer it needs to spray to get the same power output. There's only a very short window of time where the piston is optimally positioned for the best combustion.
I think the Holset is an he200wg but I can't be sure. Alcaid (a member here) was selling them for a while.
A GT2052 would work fine - there's a few of those on TDIclub that I seem to remember. I believe there are 3 different versions of that particular turbo. Garret has a tool for selecting turbos on their site that you can play with.
Haven't heard of anyone running a K16. Generally speaking the K## refers to a particular size class of turbo then there are many variations within the class - a K24 from a Porsche is quite different from the one on a 1.6TD for instance.
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Oh actually re: stock nozzles - the 12mm pump head in the LT pump might not work well with nozzles that small. That's a lot more pump than the 10mm one the nozzles were originally mated with.
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Stock nozzles with a new 12mm pump can result in the plunger seizing. BTDT.
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Once again, thank you for your time and effort in helping a new guy 'get it'.
Sadly the tool on the Garret site is offline for maintenance. So I'll have to wait a little until they put it online again. This might take days or months :(
Could you suggest some reading material regarding selecting appropriate nozzles? Or is this basically a trial and error proces? :P
I feel a little stupid because I have to depend on this community to get a place to start my search. I hope I can contribute something valuable after my initial learning stage.
I'll keep reading in the meantime.
From what I get from the thread thus far is that:
- Turbo needs changing
- nozzles need changing
- pump needs changing
If I need to change these anyway, would it be much more expensive to shoot for 200hp compared to 150? The previous owner already put an upgraded sachs clutch in place that has done 500km, so that should hold up for a while. If I can get more for more or less the same price I would obviously like to get value for money. Because I am building the block outside the car it doesn't matter if it takes longer to complete it. There seems to be a lot of difference in turbo prices, so I'm hoping to be able to get a good deal when I decide on what I'll use. Is using a second hand turbo doable or does that usually give more problems than it solves?
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Your nozzles are probably due to be changed anyhow, they're good for about 100,000 miles / 160,000 km. Unless the engine you're using is way below that they are something you'd need to do anyhow.
150-170 hp can be safely done on stock internals. 180+ upgraded rods and pistons are recommended. 200+ I'd say they're required.
A rebuilt turbo is fine, I'd avoid straight up used. Rare for a turbo that's working fine to get yanked, most people upgrade when they fail.
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Thanks a lot for that info. I think 150/160 hp is a great goal to shoot for. Knowing that can safely be done on stock internals with a reasonable amount of reliability gives me a more concrete outline for a plan. I am ging to check wat type of nozzles would be appropriate. I would like to run of by you guys before buying. Do you have a specific type you would recommend at this power level?
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There's really only a couple of options. I'd recommend sending your injectors to DBW (http://www.dbwllc.net/), just tell him what you want power wise and he'll set up the injectors appropriately. There aren't a lot of places out there that are actually qualified to work on the two stage injectors used on TDIs.
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Canīt he use turbo from 90 HP AHU? Only differens to 110 hp AFN is the change to VNT on this motor.
Injektors. I asked that question to Dieselmeken/Lindgren. His answer was PP520.
All abow from memory, dont have my own computer with me on holliday.
What spring do we need to swapp to, to get the rev.limit to 5000 RPM ? Colour/number?
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The AHU turbo can be used, sure. It's asking a lot of it to do 150+ HP though.
Dieselmeken would be an excellent place to have injectors fitted with new nozzles.
Not sure what the stock governor in the LT pump even looks like - they would be a good question for Dieselmeken too.
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So I bought the AFN engine, cleaned it up and startedcleaning it.
(http://i.imgur.com/m2TPZ98.jpg)
Then did a compression test. The first line was my own fault. The next are (in order) cylinder 2-3-4-1.
New these engines are between 25 and 31 bar with 19 being too low.
(http://i.imgur.com/xxF8XXf.jpg)
Then took it apart. Didn't do the front yet. Time was up for that day.
(http://i.imgur.com/0OXDHf5.jpg)
But it did have a new sachs clutch as advertised. New alternator and new starter.
I got a pedalbox and Ecu with immobilizer delete and swap mounts for a swap into an mk1 golf with it. Only paid 300 euros. Thats definitely a good deal.
Now the powersteering pump, turbo, diesel pump, pedalbox and ecu will be put up for sale. When I get some money ill start looking for the LT pump for my swap.
I plan on using an intake manifold from darkside development. I might use the stock exhaust manifold en make an adapter for a turbo.
Do you guys have experience with this?
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Im sorry for the picture size. I havent figured out how to change it yet. Can you see what the pully lying on the forklift is for? I got it with the engine, but it was already of when I found it.
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BGA, can you tell me what downpipe from the turbo you used in your pictures on the first page?
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I bought a custom dieselpump from a Dutch pump maker. The basis is an Iveco Daily pump. Currently it has a 12 mm plunger and can provide fuel up to 6000 rpm. The last car it was on made 265 hp and should be more than sufficient for my purposes.
Can someone provide me with the ALH sprocket part number?
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So, now that the pump problem is sorted I'm looking at turbochargers again. I got some recommendations earlier in this thread, but I want to de the math for myself. The garret turbo advisor is down right now. Tima to look at compressor maps again
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I'm actually at the point of determining turbos for my MTDI build as well. I've looked at everything from K03/K04 hybrids to the older K14 and even have considered (and may still do in the future) a VNT17/22 with a custom mechanical vane control. I know it was mentioned earlier on here, but so far from all the reading and research I've done the GT2052 seems to be a great fit for a 140-200+ hp MTDI build. People seem to be running them at 25 psi consistently without any problems and unlike some of the older K14 and K24 turbos it doesn't seem to be a heat pump. I've heard/ read too that it spools real good and holds its own at high rpm. The price is also pretty decent compared to VNT options as well.
The 2052 is currently what I'm going to be using. The only issue I've seen so far is there isn't really good exhaust manifold option for this turbo. There are adapter plates out there that allow you to fit it to a AHU/1Z stock manifold. It also looks like you can find the 2052 with a T2/T25/T28 compressor inlet/flange that would allow you to use a T25 manifold (though there seems to be "speculation" among the forums that the T25 manifold may have to much volume compared to stock manifolds and could decrease spool time- I'd love to see some numbers proving this because otherwise this manifold would be a pretty simple option). Not sure what others who are running this turbo have done but it is something to consider.
Good luck with the build man! Looking good so far!
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its taking me forever to do my mtdi project. i wish i was as smart as other people around here and/or had somebody near me to get some paid help. it ticks me off because i have the space, tools and money. when i first started i thought i could just buy vw parts and tinker things together. you kind of can but i don't have crap for junkyards around me so its been hell getting parts.
i am in the same boat turbo wise. most people that answered my questions were saying the holeset was the turbo to get bang for the buck gains over stock levels. i figured thats what i was going to do with some fresh better injectors when the time comes.
im stuck right now just getting the engine in right now and mounting and timing the rover pump correctly :) then i will have a shell that just needs a little wiring, all the suspension and breaks have been done, etc. once i get engine in i will see whats up with ac lines. then i can move on to the turbo, etc. after fitting shifter in the tunnel.
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So I ordered a pump sprocket from an AFH engine which appears to be the same as the ALH/AGR sprockets. It is indeed the 2 piece with elongated holes that is talked about in page 1. Turning the pump would be nearly impossible as the fuel lines from the pump into the block are all fixed, so this pulley should make my life mucht easier. As soon as it comes in, I'll try to fit everything together with a new belt.
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My pump with the sprocket. Ill be fitting it soon.
(https://i.imgur.com/qS6N0pY.jpg)
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Did you already get the pump bracket machined to accept the LR pump?
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I dont have to. This pump is plug and play on my engine. The base is from a Iveco Daily. It now is a 12mm pump and the governor has been altered to be able to deliver fuel up to 6000rpm. I just had to attach the 2 piece spocket to it and it is perfectly aligned with the rest of the toothed belt. In several ways it's practically identical to an LT 2.8 pump.
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Nice. :)
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Nice. :)
If anyone is interested I can check the pump for the original part number. It might be interesting for someone else as these pumps are easier to find than the LT ones. The LT van was never very popular because they were slow and loud. I only see 1 or 2 for sale in Germany sometimes. I heard from an aquintace that the sprocket I have now shouldn't be used as the tooths in the sprocket are different from the ones on my belt. Apparently there is a difference among the 1.9 engines in the same family.
Does anyone know this? I won't be able to check for a couple more days. And if they are slightly different, does that really pose a problem?
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The ALH, AHU, 1Z, AFN engines all have the same number of teeth and tooth profile on the injection pump sprocket.
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The ALH, AHU, 1Z, AFN engines all have the same number of teeth and tooth profile on the injection pump sprocket.
Thanks Libby, I thought the same ging. I will check tomorrow to make absolutely sure. First I need to solve the leakage I have. I will update asap
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Looks like a VERY cool resource
Why is it labeled "AHU TDI-121 TDI Pinout" not ALH?