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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: mammonista on June 05, 2016, 11:23:37 pm

Title: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 05, 2016, 11:23:37 pm
So I should have come here first. Don't know what I was thinking going to one of those other lists? Please forgive me!   ;D
So at long last I have my 1.9AHU bolted to the 5-speed trans with a slightly beefier clutch, aftermarket trans mount, cable clutch, bigger axles, calibrated Bozio 520 nozzles, etc. And I'm all ready to drop it into the Mk1 Jetta  coupe (http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/jetta_zpsjerdu92z.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/jetta_zpsjerdu92z.jpg.html)

 and I post a couple of questions on that other list about timing my Landy 300TDI mechanical pump. (http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/mtdi%20pump%202_zpss79afsbe.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/mtdi%20pump%202_zpss79afsbe.jpg.html)

Sheeesh. I must have really pissed off some dude over there after I told him I couldn't figure out what the heck he was talking about. First he says not only will he not help me in the future, but then he says my entire set-up is wrong and I'm in for a world of hurt if I don't figure it out before trying to assemble. Who knew Donald Trump was into VW mTDI conversions?  ;)
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/TDI%20front_zpsdr7oxtfs.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/TDI%20front_zpsdr7oxtfs.jpg.html)
So here's the deal. Bought the pump off of some shop in England on Ebay. The seller assured me it was working fine when pulled. 
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/pulley%20outer_zpsx7wesxiq.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/pulley%20outer_zpsx7wesxiq.jpg.html)
Bought the pulley sprocket off some seller here in the states. He said it was made for the 2-part ALH pulley.
(http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/Mobile%20Uploads/20160603_130812_zpso5uwkrei.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160603_130812_zpso5uwkrei.jpg.html)
I had the pulley hub machined to line it up with the cam pulley/idler/belt, etc. Also had the pulley hub bolt holes reconfigured to match the sprocket. If some of this doesn't sound right, it probably isn't as I had all this stuff done about a year ago and then the Jetta project had to take back seat while I got 'Van-no-mo' back on the road with a newly rebuilt trans for the AAZ motor in it. (http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/Vanomo/1Frontdriverthreequarter.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/Vanomo/1Frontdriverthreequarter.jpg.html)
So 'Vanamo' is running but badly in need of finishing (rear windows, rust repair, paint job) and I need to get the Jetta running as a daily driver.
Seems like a bunch of you have done this exact same Landy mTDI conversion already and might be willing to help? Puuullleeezzz?
Does that hub sprocket combo look right? Where the heck did I get them (for future reference)? I mean are they both ALH pieces, or is the hub from the Rover pump?  Once I get the pump oriented towards fueling on number one cylinder (I understand the keyway corresponds with the fueling nozzle on the rear (I swapped the ALH nozzles for the Rover nozzles), how do I actually set the pump timing? I have a Harbor Freight dial gauge but what exactly does that tell me other then when the plunger is at the top of the stroke?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
mark
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: vanbcguy on June 06, 2016, 10:35:37 am
I used a plain ordinary unmachined ALH hub and sprocket on mine. The Rover pump shaft etc has exactly the same offset as a VW specific pump, though the Rover hub is definitely different.

I timed my pump to about 1.45mm. I started there but fine tuned with a timing light / pulse adapter, never measured the final setting. I believe it is pretty close though.

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 06, 2016, 05:14:11 pm
okay, I'll admit it. I'm kinda ignorant here.
- Have the crank set at tdc (I hope - because there are actually two marks on the flywheel, one heavy mark and one slightly less heavy about six degrees to the right of the heavier one - I'm assuming the heavier mark is tdc - but I can know longer see the zero degree that was stamped on the flywheel above one of the marks because it's not covered up by bellhousing).
- Have cam set at tdc on #1 cylinder and locked in place with the plate across the back of the cam.
- Have the Rover pump keyway pointing at #1 fuel port.
- Have the timing belt on with the idler pulley and a new tensioner.

So I should...
-Tighten down the cam sprocket bolt,
-Tighten down the nut holding the pulley on the injection pump,
-Tighten the three adjusting bolts holding the IP pulley on the IP hub,
-Turn the engine through two complete revolutions to slacken the timing belt,
-Adjust the slack out of the timing belt with the tensioner,
-And...

As stated earlier I have one of these Harbor Freight dial gauges for measuring the lift (?) in the pump. So how do I set advance on the pump?  (http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/20160606_160121_zpss7httgkd.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/20160606_160121_zpss7httgkd.jpg.html) 
 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: vanbcguy on June 06, 2016, 11:46:59 pm
OK, start here:

http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

With your setup you adjust the pulley rather than moving the pump body but otherwise this is exactly what you need to do.

Your timing number should be about 1.45 mm. You won't have a locking pin hole for your pump either, but as you said you just need the keyway pointing to the #1 port.

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 22, 2016, 08:10:01 am
Getting ready to put this this thing together. Have the ALH pulley, and the ALH adjustable sprocket, and of course the Rover 300tdi mechanical pump they mate to.
I'm still just the tiniest bit confused as how to find tdc on #1 fuel port on the pump shaft but as I understand it...
- I generally line up the keyway on the shaft with the #1 fuel port on the opposite side of the pump (the #1 fuel port obviously the one that connects via the steel fuel delivery line with the #1 injector).
- Then with a dial indicator zeroed with some preload on it I rotate the shaft a) clockwise until the dial begins to move and then counterclockwise just until it no longer moves and zero it again, or b) counter clockwise until it no longer moves and then clockwise and then counter clockwise just until it no longer moves and then zero it again... and then clockwise until it reaches 1.45mm.
- This is where I eventually want the pump when the crank and cam are at TDC on #1 cylinder?
So that when the engine is at TDC on the firing stroke on #1 the pump is at 1.45mm?
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: ORCoaster on June 22, 2016, 10:33:58 pm
I only have one question.     

Did you read this:::::????????http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

I can't even begin to comprehend what it is you are trying to describe but my initial answer was going to be NEITHER  Geeezzzz I am totally confused on what it is you are trying to do.  Find TDC, Time the beast to 1.45MM?   Cranking back and forth on the shaft?///

Do you not have the timing belt on and all the necessary locks removed?  Did you get that part done and is it only the process of moving the parts and then setting the pump position that you are asking about? 

Clarity man, I need Clarity. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on June 22, 2016, 11:02:03 pm
He has the two-part sprocket/hub so it's a little different.  He's not specifically trying to time the pump, but rather attempting to set the orientation of the hub on the pump shaft so that when the pin is installed between hub and pump case it is at least ballpark. 

There really isn't any reason to do this with the pump on the engine.  Installing the hub is easier on the bench. 

Rotate the shaft so that the keyway is pointing toward the #1 injector.
Install the dial indicator.
Remove the side bolt and get a longer one so you can lock the shaft position. 
With some pre-load on the indicator, rotate the shaft CCW. 
If the indicator reading immediately moves when you begin rotating the shaft, keep rotating CCW until it stops and zero the gauge.
If the indicator reading did not change when you began rotating CCW then zero the gauge.
Rotate CW until you get to the desired indicator reading. 
Lock the shaft with the side bolt.
Place the hub on the shaft with the lock pin in place.
Tighten the hub nut.
Replace the side bolt with the proper bolt.

The usual disclaimers apply - see signature.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 22, 2016, 11:24:22 pm
In the waldon article he refers to the pump locking pin, etc. This is a rover 300 pump and the pulley has been off it for some time now, and so there is no way to insert a pump locking pin as that reference to factory tdc on the pump disappeared some time ago.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 22, 2016, 11:28:49 pm

Remove the side bolt and get a longer one so you can lock the shaft position. 
With some pre-load on the indicator, rotate the shaft CCW. 
If the indicator reading immediately moves when you begin rotating the shaft, keep rotating CCW until it stops and zero the gauge.
If the indicator reading did not change when you began rotating CCW then zero the gauge.
Rotate CW until you get to the desired indicator reading. 
Lock the shaft with the side bolt.
Place the hub on the shaft with the lock pin in place.
Tighten the hub nut.
Replace the side bolt with the proper bolt.
What is the "side bolt" you refer to? Picture please?
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on June 23, 2016, 01:30:37 am
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/SideBolt_zpsjjn1j7ic.jpg)
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 23, 2016, 08:00:01 am
rover 300 pump has no bolt like that anywhere on the pump body. I looked, and looked, and looked again. Not there.   :(
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 23, 2016, 08:20:37 am
so i can use non-adjustable keyed pump sprocket ((see pic)) (http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/Mobile%20Uploads/20160623_070542_zpsyizm7nai.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160623_070542_zpsyizm7nai.jpg.html) off of (?) to turn the keyed rover pump shaft with my home-made sprocket tool. and achieve the same results. turn the pump cw or ccw to 'zero' on the #1 fueling cycle, then advance the pump cw to 1.45mm and swap on the two-piece, adjustable hub/sprocket from an ALH ((see pic)) (http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh622/mammonista/Mobile%20Uploads/20160621_220737_zps6eieza2d.jpg) (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/mammonista/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160621_220737_zps6eieza2d.jpg.html) , install the timing belt and re-check the pump timing and adjust the pump as needed to be at 1.45mm lift at tdc as indicated by the flywheel timing mark.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on June 23, 2016, 10:32:39 am
rover 300 pump has no bolt like that anywhere on the pump body. I looked, and looked, and looked again. Not there.   :(

The pump I pictured IS an LR 300 TDI pump.  Each of the ones I have used have had the bolt.

 Yup, that has the bolt. (http://www.roverparts.com/Parts/ERR4046)
This one does too. (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-200-TDI-Injector-Injection-Pump-Bosch-VE-Pump-0460-414-069-/182170593825?hash=item2a6a36aa21:g:lO0AAMXQVT9S3p2i)
You have to look through the pics, but yup it has the bolt. (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DEFENDER-DISCOVERY-300TDi-INJECTION-PUMP-ORIGINAL-BOSCH-UNIT-/252414428416?hash=item3ac5128500:g:jXMAAOSweW5VcFC3)

You're looking between the pump and the engine block, right?  If yours doesn't have the bolt, I would question whether or not it is actually an LR 200/300 pump.

Please post a pic of the engine block side of your pump. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on June 23, 2016, 10:57:44 am
In looking at your pics, it sure looks like an LR pump in every way I can see.  You still have the LR bracket by the delivery valves.  You need to swap/modify that so you have the 4th mounting bolt.  Anyway, it should be easy for you to pull the other mounting bolts, flip the pump over and snap a pic of the engine side to post up.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 23, 2016, 03:24:32 pm
okay, you're right...i'm a dumb ass! (I haven't claimed to have much on the ball for the last 30 years or so!) Don't know why I couldn't spot that bolt when I was looking right at it when the pump was on the engine. But as soon as I pulled the pump it magically appeared.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 23, 2016, 03:29:02 pm
What's that 'side bolt' do? I'm not going to f*** something up putting a longer one in there to 'lock the shaft'?  And do you have any pics of the bracket that I'm going to make to give me a 4th mounting point on the delivery side of the pump?
thanks a bunch for putting up with my dumb ass!!!!
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on June 23, 2016, 04:40:07 pm
The side bolt plugs the hole that is there specifically for holding the shaft at the desired position for installing the hub.  It doesn't do anything else, it is just a plug.

All of the VW pumps have a 4th mounting bolt below the 4 delivery valves.  They also all have a flat metal plate that accepts the 4th bolt.  The LR pump also has a similar plate for a similar function, but the bolt location/hole is on the wrong side of the pump.  Look at the stock pump or your jetta pump for reference.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: mammonista on June 23, 2016, 06:33:42 pm
you're the man!
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on July 20, 2016, 06:43:22 pm
I'm getting ready to remove the LR hub (300TDI pump) and install an ALH version.  Does this side bolt just serve to freeze the shaft in position when cranked down, once the desired position has been reached via the dial indicator, or does it fit into a slot?  I assume the former, but I'm just trying to remove as much ambiguity from a process that has very little online documentation.  What methods have others used to center the timing pin in the LR housing, since it's clearly much bigger than the slot in the ALH hub?  If I had access to a lathe, I'd machine up a bushing, but that's not yet an option. 

Also, is there a good online reference source for setting the timing belt up on an ALH?  I've done dozens of older 1.5/1.6L engines back in the day, but I don't currently have any of the sequences or torque settings in hand for this much newer engine design. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on July 20, 2016, 07:33:00 pm
The side bolt just pinches the shaft.  There is no slot it goes into.  It can hold the shaft at any point in its rotation.  The sequence I mentioned previously is fairly comprehensive.  It's easier than you might think.

 
Rotate the shaft so that the keyway is pointing toward the #1 injector.
Install the dial indicator.
Remove the side bolt and get a longer one so you can lock the shaft position. 
With some pre-load on the indicator, rotate the shaft CCW. 
If the indicator reading immediately moves when you begin rotating the shaft, keep rotating CCW until it stops and zero the gauge.
If the indicator reading did not change when you began rotating CCW then zero the gauge.
Rotate CW until you get to the desired indicator reading. 
Lock the shaft with the side bolt.
Place the hub on the shaft with the lock pin in place.
Tighten the hub nut.
Replace the side bolt with the proper bolt.

The usual disclaimers apply - see signature.

1.40-1.45mm is a decent baseline timing spec for the LR pump.

For centering the timing pin hole in the case, I imagine you could probably order a reasonably sized bushing from mcmaster or the like. 

On my ALH automatic, I didn't do anything about the pin hole mismatch.  The camplate/rollers are pushing the sprocket CCW and so I just installed the hub with the pin pushed against the side of the hole in that direction.  It's definitely close enough to be on the correct tooth during a belt install.  For fine timing I use the pulse adapter.  You could do similar with the dial indicator. 

Places like MyTurbodiesel or tdi club have pictorials on changing the timing belt.  The pump timing will be different for an mTDI, though.  Setting the pump timing up for an mTDI would be the same as the 1.5/1.6 except instead of loosening the pump mounting bolts and rotating the pump, you loosen the sprocket to hub bolts and rotate them relative each other.   

Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on July 28, 2016, 05:15:37 pm
Thanks, I was able to get the pump timed, but now I need the torque spec for the center nut.  It might be the same as the 1.5/1.6, but I'd rather not guess since it's a different size shaft.

[edit]I still have the Bentley for my old '96 Passat tdi, and it says the 1Z gets torqued to 41ft/lbs
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on July 28, 2016, 07:10:33 pm
I haven't ever seen a torque spec for the hub to shaft nut.  The spec is listed for the single-piece sprockets,but not for the hub/sprocket.  VW just says, "Do not loosen for any reason!"  I'd go for the German torque spec of Gutentight or 45-ft-lbs.  That's just my opinion and the usual disclaimers apply. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on July 28, 2016, 09:29:25 pm
Ok, new issue with the hub...

I'm still setting it up on the bench, but when I test fit the pulley, I found that the stock bolts would hit the snout of the pump when screwed in, even finger tight.  I measured the hub to snout distance at 2.5mm.  I have another hub type pump, which I think was off of an NA 1Y engine, and it has a hub to snout distance of 4mm.  The bolts are 16mm and the face of the hub is 7mm thick. 

I believe this is an aftermarket hub, which might mean that they machined the taper incorrectly.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on July 28, 2016, 10:42:57 pm
That's correct.  The stock ALH bolts in the ALH hub hit the snout of the pump where the pin goes.  The same area on the ALH case is cast back from the hub further.  I'd recommend grinding it back the necessary amount.  An alternative is to fit shorter bolts that don't stick beyond the hub. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on July 28, 2016, 10:49:37 pm
Ok, so you're telling me this is a normal mod required of mounting the LR pumps on an ALH, then?  If so, that's a huge relief.  I had considered using shorter bolts, but was worried that the sprocket was going to be off center and the belt would walk off over time.  Many thanks!
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on July 29, 2016, 12:40:17 am
Yup, totally normal.  The ALH belt will typically ride toward the block side of the pump sprocket.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on August 23, 2016, 07:27:34 pm
The side bolt just pinches the shaft.  There is no slot it goes into.  It can hold the shaft at any point in its rotation.  The sequence I mentioned previously is fairly comprehensive.  It's easier than you might think.

 
Rotate the shaft so that the keyway is pointing toward the #1 injector.
Install the dial indicator.
Remove the side bolt and get a longer one so you can lock the shaft position. 
With some pre-load on the indicator, rotate the shaft CCW. 
If the indicator reading immediately moves when you begin rotating the shaft, keep rotating CCW until it stops and zero the gauge.
If the indicator reading did not change when you began rotating CCW then zero the gauge.
Rotate CW until you get to the desired indicator reading. 
Lock the shaft with the side bolt.
Place the hub on the shaft with the lock pin in place.
Tighten the hub nut.
Replace the side bolt with the proper bolt.

The usual disclaimers apply - see signature.

1.40-1.45mm is a decent baseline timing spec for the LR pump.

For centering the timing pin hole in the case, I imagine you could probably order a reasonably sized bushing from mcmaster or the like. 

On my ALH automatic, I didn't do anything about the pin hole mismatch.  The camplate/rollers are pushing the sprocket CCW and so I just installed the hub with the pin pushed against the side of the hole in that direction.  It's definitely close enough to be on the correct tooth during a belt install.  For fine timing I use the pulse adapter.  You could do similar with the dial indicator. 

Places like MyTurbodiesel or tdi club have pictorials on changing the timing belt.  The pump timing will be different for an mTDI, though.  Setting the pump timing up for an mTDI would be the same as the 1.5/1.6 except instead of loosening the pump mounting bolts and rotating the pump, you loosen the sprocket to hub bolts and rotate them relative each other.   



I was double-checking my work, and went ahead and pulled the TDI hub off again.  I need a point of clarification in the nomenclature; when you say keyway, you're referring to the one on the shaft itself, and not the locking window on the hub, right?  I looked at the LR hub and can see that the keyway was sitting at the 4:00 position underneath the hub (there's an imprint), while of course the timing window is at 12:00.  Is that roughly where the keyway would end up with #1 cyl at TDC?  I guess I'm getting paranoid that I'll somehow time the pump for TDC on the wrong cylinder.  Are there any other external clues regarding which cylinder is under injection per a given point of pump rotation?   

I was able to shim up the lockpin hole in the snout with some metal tubing.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 23, 2016, 07:51:20 pm
When I mention the keyway, I am talking about the machined cutout in the pump shaft.  That keyway needs to point to the delivery valve that leads to the #1 cylinder.

Here's a schematic view of the delivery valve end of the pump:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Delivery%20Valves_zpsa4hbwffy.jpg)


Here's a schematic view of the sprocket side of the pump:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Keyway_zpsksnah1sg.jpg)


I believe you will need to rotate the shaft 180° to get to #1.  The arrow points to the correct direction for the keyway to point at the #1 delivery valve. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: ORCoaster on August 23, 2016, 09:53:42 pm
If this doesn't solve his problem it is bigger than we think. 

You took a little bit of Auto Cad and did the education.  love it.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on August 23, 2016, 09:57:39 pm
Ok, as I was reading your post, I looked and I had previously set the pump exactly in that position, with the dial set at 1.45mm.  I popped the hub off of that other snouted pump I bought a while back, and it too is set up with the keyway in that position.  I think whomever rebuilt this pump set the LR hub 180 degrees out...so you can imagine my confusion.  I'm glad I double-checked my work.

Thanks again! 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 24, 2016, 12:55:31 am
ORCoaster, glad you liked the drawings.  Sometimes a picture makes it easier to explain. 

Zeitgeist, I believe the stock LR hub is installed so that when pinned, the keyway points at the VW #4 rather than #1.  I need to pay attention and double-check the next time I pull the hub off an LR pump. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on August 25, 2016, 05:56:39 pm
Ok, so I got the hub set on the pump.  I then attempted to install the timing belt, and found that I cannot rotate the engine.  I drove the car with the donor engine, and removed the old belt after setting it to TDC, and have not rotated the engine since that time.  The #1 cam lobes are pointing up, and the crank pulley is in the proper position for TDC and the Metalnerd lock, as is the Kennedy adapter TDC window.  I removed the glowplugs, and still it will move a few degrees, and then the resistance becomes too much and my nerve gives out.  I'm at a loss as to why it's not rotating.  I may remove the cam and see if that frees up the crank to turn, but no matter what, it does appear that I need to pull the head.  What am I missing here?
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 25, 2016, 07:20:37 pm
Is the pump shaft still locked?  Any other locks in place (e.g. pump hub lock, camlock, etc...)?

Is the engine in the vehicle with trans attached?  Is the trans in gear?
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on August 25, 2016, 07:29:06 pm
Is the pump shaft still locked?  Any other locks in place (e.g. pump hub lock, camlock, etc...)?

None that I've installed.  I'm wondering if the oil pump has something wedged in the sprocket, or there was a foreign object that got down the intake/exhaust ports.  I was able to freely rotate the crank back and forth prior to installing the belt.  The upside of pulling the head, is that it would allow me to freshen up the valve stem seals and hand lap the valves, at the very least.  Could also be a can of worms.  The engine ran excellent despite having a nearly completely occluded intake manifold.   

The engine is still hanging from my shop crane.  I'd have it on the engine stand, but that doesn't allow the adapter plate and flywheel. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 26, 2016, 02:51:07 am
Just triple-checking...  when you installed the hub, I imagine you clamped the pump shaft using the side bolt.  You released the shaft and installed the stock bolt, correct?
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on August 26, 2016, 02:17:54 pm
Yep, pump turns fine.  I pulled the cam, and the bottom end turns fine as well.  All the lifters popped up evenly, so it's a real mystery.  I'll just go ahead and pop the head off while I'm at stripped this far.  Ambiguity and uncertainty are the biggest drag on this project, by far.  I know just enough about the old school VAG diesels to get into trouble, but not enough about these newer versions to confidently move forward.  All told though, I really really like the ALH design
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 26, 2016, 03:02:08 pm
Before popping the head off, you might consider placing crank midway  for all cyls (90° before or after TDC) and see if cam will turn.
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on August 27, 2016, 02:42:21 pm
Ok, mystery solved.  Feel free to laugh at the big ol' dummy.  It turns out that I used Allen head bolts to secure the pump to the bracket, and they would interfere with the pulley, but only when the hub bolts were torqued down.  Of course, every time I pulled the belt, I slackened the hub bolts, so the problem would disappear.  Grrrrr...silly mistakes; I've made a few.

On the plus side, I did go ahead and pull the head, and was amazed to see how utterly perfect the condition of engine is, even though it has 203k miles.  No cylinder ridge, and the valves/seats show almost no wear whatsoever.  I've never seen a high mileage engine in this kind of condition--ever.  I'll go ahead and give it a mild port/polish, lap the valves and install new stem seals.  I love the ALH.

Since this is an 11mm pump and my donor was an automatic, what size nozzles would allow me to maximize the power output for a big rig like a Vanagon?  I just ordered a very large L2A intercooler, but I don't want to produce much/any smoke that might clog the catalytic converter.  I gather that I can swap the nozzles, but there's no way to DIY dial in the spring tension, correct?
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 27, 2016, 03:42:17 pm
Glad you figured it out.

The ALH engines are very impressive in that regard.  They seem to run forever.  My Jetta wagon has 250,000 miles on it and does not ever use any oil at all. 

Having someone with the proper equipment dial in the nozzles is necessary, IMO.  As far as which nozzles to get, that depends on a lot of factors.  You should match the nozzles to the amount of boost that you are running.  As far as 'maximizing the power output', you might want to consider that carefully.  The ALH can fairly easily be tuned to torque levels that will very quickly destroy a vanagon trans.  I'd probably keep max boost to 20 psi or so and keep it slightly under-fueled.  IDParts has a decent description of various nozzle options.

BTW, I just purchased a Porsche 4HP22ZF tiptronic trans.  I probably won't get to it for a while, but plan on installing it in my '91 in place of the 010.  Everything on paper looks like it should work out but there are still a few significant hurdles.  The end result will be an automatic trans with 4 speeds and a lockup torque converter.  The gearing for speeds 1-3 will match the 010 with the 3.73 R+P almost exactly which is fine, but having an additional top gear AND lockup is exactly what the 010 is lacking.  It should also be able to withstand an ALH with 'maximized power output'.  :-)     
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: Zeitgeist on August 27, 2016, 04:24:17 pm
My very first diesel (and watercooled vehicle) was an '80 Rabbit w/250k.  I drove it until 275k, at which time it simply ceased to start reliably and had massive amounts of blowby.  I tore it down, and everything was pretty much hammered--I mean toast.  This ALH looks like it has 20k on it, not 200k.   

That's a really cool transmission project.  I recently tore down an Audi A8 5HP24 trans I picked up for free off of craigslist--wowza, that was a complicated unit.  My Audi has a 4HP18, and it's been extremely reliable, though it's a less complicated precursor to the 4HP22HL.  I imagine the flexplate and adapter plate will be a challenge to find for the ALH.  If I break this DK trans, I may step up to an 010 with Salim's new 3.08 R&P.  My Mercedes diesel spins the engine at just a hair under 3k @ 75mph with 2.65 R&P, though a lockup TC would probably alter that a bit.  It launches off the line like a V8, even with such tall gearing.     
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: libbydiesel on August 27, 2016, 04:39:59 pm
I seriously considered the taller R+P's for the 010.  My understanding is that the Porsche trans has the same 4-bolt pattern as the waterboxer.  If that's the case, my current ALH to 010 adapter plate should bolt the ALH to the Porsche trans.  I'm not sure yet what will be required for adapting the Porsche drive plate to the ALH crank.  Other hurdles will include starter, CV shafts, physically mounting it, and running a standalone electronic control. 
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: BGA on February 28, 2017, 12:22:28 pm
In reply#11 there is a pic of an ALH pump sprocket.
I haven't seen one but on this pic it seems to be heavy. If so, the reason must be kind of flywheel to even out pulse forces of the pumping and giving longer timing belt life.
I am building a mTDI with a 12 mm LT pump. Is this the way I should go?
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: vanbcguy on February 28, 2017, 12:46:29 pm
The ALH pulley definitely has much more mass than the earlier ones. The ALH also has a longer timing belt interval despite having the same physical belt width. Likely the larger sprocket has some relation to that (though the belt itself is obviously different too).

If I were building something and I could fit the heavier sprocket I'd go with it - VW isn't in the habit of adding weight to things for no reason.

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Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: BGA on March 09, 2017, 06:10:45 pm
" (though the belt itself is obviously different too). "
In what way different? I hope tooth profile is same on all 1.9 TDIs.

Bo Gunnar
Title: Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
Post by: vanbcguy on March 09, 2017, 08:58:48 pm
The tooth profile is the same but the routing, length and construction are not.

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