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Engine Specific Info and Questions => Non VW Group Diesel => Topic started by: R.O.R-2.0 on March 16, 2012, 04:33:38 pm
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So, i did a serpentine conversion to my non-ac/ps GTI yesterday. i know, its just a dumb gasser, but ive got a fetish with OVERKILL charging/cooling systems! ;D
can pretty much jump start a dead dump truck now, with all the power my car has. brand new over size battery, and a nice big alt!
i used the VR water pump pulley, because the power steering pulley was already gone, damn it! it would have worked OK with no spacer behind the pulley, but i wanted the belt to ride in the middle of the pulley, instead of on the edge, so i built an aluminum spacer for it, then everything lined up PERFECT! belt rides directly in the middle of the pump pulley. belt does not flutter at all.. not at idle, not at WOT.. no belt flutter. its friggen sweet!
i also used the VR6 120a BOSCH alternator.. its the same 120a that the TDI uses. its physically HUGE compared to the 90a alt i took off the car.. has the same W-term/D+ plug as the TDI alt, but with a regular rectangle injector connector, rather than the D shaped connector.. and it bolts right up to the ABA serpentine bracket perfectly.. all i had to do, to be able to use it, was swap the ABA pulley onto the VR6 alternator..
and, according to my butt-dyno, the car is just a little bit QUICKER now.. im absolutely amazed actually. i thought i would LOSE power from the huge alternator, but i swear it added some bottom end torque, just from the bigger spinning armature..
also, since i installed the ABA bracket on an 86 GX engine, i didnt get to install the top right (looking at the bracket) stand off bracket for the alt bracket.. so its bolted to the water pump with the 2 long, bottom bolts, and then it has only ONE bolt holding the top of the bracket to the block.. there was no provision for the top right stand-off bolt, that the bracket bolts to.. i looked the alt bracket over good and well, and i saw no reason that i couldnt safely run the bracket with only 3 of the 4 bolts holding it to the block.. it doesnt flex at all, and really doesnt have to do anything more than hold an alternator.. i should be ok with only 3 bolts right? or should i build up a bracket so i can use the 4th stand off bolt? i also had to make a little aluminum spacer to go behind the timing cover.
oh, and i forgot to mention the best part of the swap:
you know how most every old mk1 or mk2 VW has the "blip throttle to excite alternator" syndrome? well, my charge light now goes out before the OXS light, or oil pressure light!!!
its soo nice not having to manually make the alternator charge, now it just does it without any human input! could also have something to do with the fact that i cleaned every grounding point on the alternator/water pump/bracket, and die-electric greased every metal to metal connection between the engine block, and actual alternator..
anyways, this is DEFINITELY a worth while upgrade, even on a diesel, being that you have to get the crank broached, and use a TDI sprocket..
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"Serpentine" refers to belt routing, not type. The type of belt is a "Poly V"; its only "serpentine" if it wraps back on itself and drives something from the back of the belt.
The reason the Butt-O-Meter registers more bottom end is more likely that the poly V belt uses less energy to spin the accessories. That is the major reason the use then. I have heard 5 hp in some applications. Driving everything with one belt is just gravy.
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so, maybe the serp setup isnt soo sweet..
it squeeks when its cold.
it vibrates at 3000 revs.
what gives?
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If it squeeks when its cold, you need new bushings in your tensioner arm, and probably a new tensioner too. That squeeking noise is the tensioner arm machining itself on the bushing. I just finished refurbishing my serpentine tensioner setup.The bushings are a pain in the arse to get out but its doable. You will need the 2 steel tensioner bushings, 2 rubber seals , a new tensioner arm, and a new tensioner. All for about $70, cheeper than purchasing a new alternator bracket when your old one cracks in half.
You can purchase everything you need from IDParts.com, all the physical hardware in the tensioning bracket is the same for gas and diesel. To get rid of the weird vibrations you need the updated free-wheeling pulley which is about $90
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screw it, im putting my V-belt setup back on the car if thats the case.
the tensioner pulley is brand new, and the tensioner arm doesnt move when its squeaking.. it sounds like the belt is squeaking, not the tensioner arm. besides, there is no detectable play in the tensioner setup.
i swear its the belt squeaking, and not the tensioner. because it wont squeak unless its raining, or very humid outside..
i did purchase a belt that was a TINY bit too long for the setup, think that could be causing issues?
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On the 3/4 of the bolts holding it in you can weld a tab onto the IP lower bracket with an elongated hole in it. That is what I did and I stole that from libby. I did mine out of car, but you maybe able to get to it in car.
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On the 3/4 of the bolts holding it in you can weld a tab onto the IP lower bracket with an elongated hole in it. That is what I did and I stole that from libby. I did mine out of car, but you maybe able to get to it in car.
im on a gasser car tho buddy.. no injection pump bracket..
didnt want to install this onto the diesel until i had a TDI crank sprocket, and mod..
does anyone have any idea as to why it vibrates @ 3000 revs tho? is the harmonic balancer shot? just wrong for a 1.8L engine? or do i have something else wrong?
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Me getting caught up on all theads not reading...No idea on the 3000 revs? What kind of viberate? Is it the belt or is it felt in the car? Just wondering.
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You probably need the harmonic balancer too....
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You probably need the harmonic balancer too....
weird thing is, the balancer runs perfectly straight and true, not a bit of axial, or radial wobble.. the belt doesnt bounce at 3000 revs, but the engine gets a strange vibration that you can feel in the whole car..
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missing 4th bolt will let it vibrate dude... ive seen too many broken ac brackets on gas bunnies when 1 of those bolts break... and on a diesel.. hell the bracket would already be broken.. need to build a 4th bolt mount...
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missing 4th bolt will let it vibrate dude... ive seen too many broken ac brackets on gas bunnies when 1 of those bolts break... and on a diesel.. hell the bracket would already be broken.. need to build a 4th bolt mount...
was wondering if that was the key ingredient to making it not vibrate..
swear ive seen people install it with 3/4 bolts...
can i just build an aluminum bracket that goes from a bolt hole a little farther north, to the location where the 4th bolt on the bracket is?
or should i build something out of steel, to avoid vibration fatigue?
i couldnt install all of the ABA stand off bolts, being that the boss for the 4th stand off bolt is non-existent on the old 1.8L engines..
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Granted Ive had my setup for roughly 20,000 miles but I only installed 3/4 bolts.
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im gonna do some work on it today. swap parts out, and see if i cant get rid of the vibrations..
if i need a harmonic balancer, im gonna re-install the V-belt stuff till i can afford new parts..
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Is it a new belt? Is it a quality belt or chinese crap? Did you try taking the belt off and see if the vibration goes away? Have you tried another belt? I would take the alternator down and have it spin tested and see if IT vibrates. Before I did that I would probably pull the leads off of the alternator and see if the vibration goes away. Some times an electrical fault in the an alternator will cause the load to vary and vibrate the case.
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ill be checking that today..
and i got a gates belt.. if its the issue, it will be the first junk belt ive ever had from gates..
gonna be making an aluminum bracket for the 4th bolt hole, also..
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ill be checking that today..
and i got a gates belt.. if its the issue, it will be the first junk belt ive ever had from gates..
gonna be making an aluminum bracket for the 4th bolt hole, also..
made a bracket yesterday, out of 3/4" T6061 plate. the setup no longer makes noise, or vibrates.. the alternator was completely fine.
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belt still squeals upon cold start, but just for a few mins. once the car is up to op temp, everything is golden..
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Yeah...that squeak is the tensioning arm machining itself on the worn out bushings
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Yeah...that squeak is the tensioning arm machining itself on the worn out bushings
both bushings are fine tho.. it doesnt even move, so i dont understand how its machining its self..
all the parts i have, are either new, or pulled off engines with less than 100k miles..
why does it squeak cold, but not hot? and its like a rubber belt squeak, not a metal on metal squeak, i do know the difference..
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The only way to tell if the bushings are fine is to pull out the tensioning arm from the bracket and inspect the arm for points of wear.
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The only way to tell if the bushings are fine is to pull out the tensioning arm from the bracket and inspect the arm for points of wear.
lately, it hasnt been making any noise tho, none on cold start, none ever, just silent.
i think the squeak was probably just some rusty, possibly glazed pulleys..
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On my truck that is what happens. Then the rust imbeds in the belt and when you don't drive it for a bit it stays forever. My truck has a belt chirp at idle that never goes away, unless you put a new belt on, but as much as I drive the truck that only lasts until the next time I start it and the new belt is the same as the old.
You probably won't have that issue as you drive that car more than 1 time every 4 months.
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On my truck that is what happens. Then the rust imbeds in the belt and when you don't drive it for a bit it stays forever. My truck has a belt chirp at idle that never goes away, unless you put a new belt on, but as much as I drive the truck that only lasts until the next time I start it and the new belt is the same as the old.
You probably won't have that issue as you drive that car more than 1 time every 4 months.
actually, when i first put the serp setup on, i didnt drive the car much, surely not enough to get all the rust of the pulleys.. but now that its my daily driver again, im driving it pretty much every day again (blown oil seals on the TD, im having bad luck with turbos lately)
the belt was brand new when i put it on, so it had to wear to the pulleys, and of course, wear all the rust particles into the belt also..
i think im gonna keep running it, and just keep an eye on things, see how everything works out.. if the squeak comes back, or gets worse, then i will pull stuff apart and fix it, but for now, everything seems to be playing very nicely together..
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Keep us posted. I'm gonna be running an ABF setup, a bit different but the principle of the tensioner is the same so it's nice to know about the internal bushings. Thanks theman53 on the rust embedding comment. My pullies have a bit of gunk on them, so I'll wire-brush the contact surfaces at least.
Hope you don't have to pull the tensioner bracket apart, but pics if you do! ;)
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well, the 1054mm belt sucks.. its stretched enough now, so that the tensioner is at the end of its travel.. any looser, and the bent is gonna start flying off..
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well, the 1054mm belt sucks.. its stretched enough now, so that the tensioner is at the end of its travel.. any looser, and the bent is gonna start flying off..
Kev dude you need to get a 1033 belt..that is the length I ran on my mk2 ABA swap that only had an alternator to run...also the squeaking can be a failing harmonic balancer, the rubber delaminates from the hub, causing the two pieces to slip when cold. It might be quit now but that is probably because it has found a tight spot lol
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well, the 1054mm belt sucks.. its stretched enough now, so that the tensioner is at the end of its travel.. any looser, and the bent is gonna start flying off..
Kev dude you need to get a 1033 belt..that is the length I ran on my mk2 ABA swap that only had an alternator to run...also the squeaking can be a failing harmonic balancer, the rubber delaminates from the hub, causing the two pieces to slip when cold. It might be quit now but that is probably because it has found a tight spot lol
gonna be ordering the 1033mm belt here in about an hour..
and as for the squeak, its up high, like the belt is slipping over the rusty alternator pulley..
but it stopped squeaking for now, and my tensioner is fully extended, no more tension left in it. so, the "worn tensioner bushings" is starting to sound more plausible..
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i may take and dis-assemble the tensioner assembly, to see if i can modify the tensioner spring housing to allow some more travel past stock limits, and to inspect the bushings on the tensioner arm. if the bushings are work, i imagine its going to be visible..
anyways, ill let you guys know what i find out.. or if i find anything out.
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well, the 1054mm belt sucks.. its stretched enough now, so that the tensioner is at the end of its travel.. any looser, and the bent is gonna start flying off..
I think I am using a 1055mm on my m-tdi.. and I am also driving the water pump! lol
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ive got the 1054mm belt, driving the water pump with the VR water pump pulley.
maybe my w/p pulley is smaller than yours?
cause my tensioner has no tension left with the 1054mm belt installed..
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bought a 1033mm belt, and it ALMOST DIDNT FIT..
but it works fine. you just have to put it on the alternator and crank pulleys first, being that they are ribbed. then you slide it on the smooth VR pulley last, and release the tension.
now its running on the first half of the tensioners travel, rather than the last little bit of travel. hope the extra tension doesnt wear anything out prematurely.
but, besides that, NOTHING MAKES A SINGLE NOISE.
the whole setup is silent. the noises it was making were from a crappy, over-length belt..
if my tensioner bushings were going bad, they would STILL MAKE NOISE, right? because now it makes no noise ever. not cold, not hot, not wet, not dry. nothing at all. silent, like it should..
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is it common knowledge that the VR uses the same 120a alt as the TDI?
i thought the VR, and most TDIs had 90a alternators?
i never knew they made a 70a serp alternator as well..
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I think it depends on whether or not it has A/C?
I am pretty sure the A/C TDI's came with the 120a, like the one I currently have in my 84.. Can have my two 90w low beams on, fog lights, heater fan, rear window defrost, and stereo bumpin' and it doesnt dim in the slightest. AWESOME
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bought a 1033mm belt, and it ALMOST DIDNT FIT..
but it works fine. you just have to put it on the alternator and crank pulleys first, being that they are ribbed. then you slide it on the smooth VR pulley last, and release the tension.
now its running on the first half of the tensioners travel, rather than the last little bit of travel. hope the extra tension doesnt wear anything out prematurely.
but, besides that, NOTHING MAKES A SINGLE NOISE.
the whole setup is silent. the noises it was making were from a crappy, over-length belt..
if my tensioner bushings were going bad, they would STILL MAKE NOISE, right? because now it makes no noise ever. not cold, not hot, not wet, not dry. nothing at all. silent, like it should..
/boratvoice VERY NICE!!! Great to hear the belt setup works now. And yes if the bushings were bad they'd nake noise, but more as the belt loosened up and the tensioner arm moves more during engine operation.
Mind saying where you snagged that 1033mm?
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napa auto has a listing for 1034mm belts, 1040mm belts, 1046mm belts, and 1054mm..
the 1054 is the absolute longest belt that works. the 1034 is the absolute shortest belt that works..
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bought a 1033mm belt, and it ALMOST DIDNT FIT..
but it works fine.
Glad to here it worked out. I knew it would work, ran it on my Jetta Coupe aba swap for years, no squeaks ever
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bought a 1033mm belt, and it ALMOST DIDNT FIT..
but it works fine.
Glad to here it worked out. I knew it would work, ran it on my Jetta Coupe aba swap for years, no squeaks ever
think if i were gonna do it again, i would go with the 1046mm belt..
because like i mentioned, the 1034 is ALMOST too short.
the serpentine setup works AWESOME tho.. ive got my stereo re-installed in my car, and OMG.. its a HUGE difference. the 120a alternator made all the difference in the world! my lights NEVER dim from the draw of the stereo anymore, not even at idle, with the stereo CRANKED.
i used to have a 90a alt, and a V belt, and when the stereo was drawing a big load, it would slowly suck the batteries down, then once the volt gauge dipped below 11v or so, the belt would start SCREAMING, until you took the load off, and let the alternator re-charge the batts..
now, my volt gauge dont even dip that low now.. not even momentarily.. and the belt sure as hell dont slip..