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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: golfmk1tdr on April 08, 2016, 08:44:27 am
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I just started my 1.6/1.9 combo few days ago and when engine is cold it smokes so bad I am afraid of neighbors calling for fire brigade.
I can't tell how much better it is warm because I only drove it in the night so I couldn't really see.(it is much better though)
Car has a lot of white smoke, with very rough idle, I've even seen few rings of smoke at the start.
It was sealed with AAZ steel headgasket, and it has APR studs, so I would deem headgasket leak unlikely.
options I am considering:
timing? It's set at 1.00, it seems to run better with choke, I don't know what timing is usual for frankenengine,still, wouldn't that make black smoke?
water in fuel? It was sitting with this tank of fuel for good half year now
DO I NEED AAZ INJECTORS? I am using 1.6 TD injectors, they seem to fit fine so I didn't really think about it much
Headgasket water leak? Is this possible without pressure in water lines?
Or is this just normal for frankenengines? I hope not because it really is a bit much...
Please help me solve this, I am on my edge mentally and financially, so this is really the last thing I need after all the trouble of building this engine.
EDIT: video of the damn thing
https://youtu.be/XxzCeLMjRs8 (https://youtu.be/XxzCeLMjRs8)
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I put one together back in October and I had the same issue. I think it's just the nature of the beast. Try it again during the day but it's not an optimal combo.
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I put one together back in October and I had the same issue. I think it's just the nature of the beast. Try it again during the day but it's not an optimal combo.
The one you put together is still running? Is it's smoke comparable to the smoke on my video?
I am not sure what to feel if this really is normal lol ??? ::)
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you can try advancing the timing more, with the lowered compression,i remember reading someone went as far as 1.20 on a franken engine. also what was the condition of the head and block before this? are they both fresh rebuilt parts?
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Advance! Advance!
Sounds retarded to my ear across the internet. If it improves when pulling the cold start handle (It's NOT A CHOKE!) then bumping up the timing would be prudent. The cold start handle adds a few degrees of advance when pulled.
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Yeah mine smoked about that much but it was probably colder outside then. I put the stock head back on.
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i didn't listen to it, but i agree it sounds retarded
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i didn't listen to it, but i agree it sounds retarded
LOL are you are mocking me??? :) HAHA
now seriously,I will definitely advance the timing to 1.15 before I start it next time. You were the only one to give at least approximate number, thankyou...
Yeah mine smoked about that much but it was probably colder outside then. I put the stock head back on.
Sounds like you gave up fast, did you try to advance the timing before you put stock back?
Advance! Advance!
Sounds retarded to my ear across the internet. If it improves when pulling the cold start handle (It's NOT A CHOKE!) then bumping up the timing would be prudent. The cold start handle adds a few degrees of advance when pulled.
You seem to have good ear, would you say it's only running on three cyl's? Someone on FB said so but I can't hear (I am about 50%deaf so I really can't hear well)
Anyway I hope timing does the trick, but if it doesn't and this really is nature of the beast I plan on installing block heater. I hate driving cold engine anyway...
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haha no, i meant to say i didn't listen to it the first time because i was at work so i just watched the smoke. but i watched it again with the sound on and could hear it sounds odd like its very retarded. how is the condition of the block and the head? i'd be curious what a compression test would show.
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also you can try advancing it as far as you want, where ever it runs well really, theres no rules for stuff like this.
whered you post this on facebook? the the idi group?
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Any chance that pump is 180 off.
No air bubles in clear fuel lines,your injectors are check?
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Is it actually running on all four? It sounds.. wrong. the put put put put put...
I've had a couple of these that either with freshly assembled or not run in ages motors smoked white, although not that much,
till I got them out and actually drove them. I have a post about it here from years ago somewhere.
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This was mine when it was cold
(http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/th_20151111_092416_zps9solh7oa.jpg) (http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/20151111_092416_zps9solh7oa.mp4)
This was it warmed up. It didn't smoke when it was warm but I definitely didn't have it tuned right, it didn't make much power down low and sounded like it was misfiring a bit. I probably gave up on it a bit too easy but i was tired of playing with it. (http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/th_20151111_092416_zps9solh7oa.jpg) (http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/20151111_092416_zps9solh7oa.mp4)
If you live anywhere near Vancouver I have an aaz block I'm planning on throwing out. You can have it for free but it doesn't come with the crank or anything, it's just a bare block...
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You guys must be deaf. It is clearly running on 3 holes and occasionally picks up the 4th hole at idle. That smoke looks more blue than white. Do like they told you and bump the timing up a lot and try again. Don't even use the dial indicator, just start advancing the timing and see what happens. Because it is a bastard combo normal timing specs mean little. Have you driven the car yet? Is it down on power or just smoky?
I suspect that you may have a tight valve or low compression in one hole. Or perhaps a bad injector. Does it pick up the dead hole after it warms up?\
In any case pull the injectors and test compression and have the injectors checked.
You need to determine why it is carrying one hole most of the time.
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ADVANCE ADVANCE ADVANCE ;) THANK YOU ALL! This bastard is smoking black from now on :D
I timed it first to 1.20 and it was still pretty much the same, but with advance it got better... So screw it, I pulled the clock out and timed it ''on the ear''... I turned it all the way to advance I could and suddenly there was almost no smoke.
Then I pulled the advance (''choke'') cable and smoke dissipated completely, I don't think it was running this clean even before on 1.6 engine.
So I put the clock in to see what it is now, it's 1.40 ;D And it still needs more.
Also went on test run, it tends to smoke a bit white without advance pulled, but with advance it's pretty much clean as gas (until boost hits, then I am riding a rocket chased by big trail of black smoke :D )
I don't know if it still has dead cylinder problem, maybe it will show up again when cold but for now it's definitely all 4 when warm. I suspect there could be one valve that doesn't seal quite just 100%, but it should run in eventually.
How could I get more advance other than drilling larger hole into pump housing?
Is there any problem with having cable pulled all the time?
Anyway I am really glad the smoke is gone, now I just have to figure out if my turbo whines for it's lack or air filter or do I have a bigger problem :-\
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you haven't commented on the condition of the block and head that you used. that seems like a lot of advance, but i guess if it works it works.
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Running at 1.40 or more means you have more issues. I have less compression than your setup and run .94mm. At 1.40 the pressure will rise in the precup to the point it will fail much sooner. Fix your engine and head.
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Running at 1.40 or more means you have more issues. I have less compression than your setup and run .94mm. At 1.40 the pressure will rise in the precup to the point it will fail much sooner. Fix your engine and head.
Or his pump isn't actually a VW pump. Entirely possible.
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What's the braking pressure on the injectors?
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you haven't commented on the condition of the block and head that you used. that seems like a lot of advance, but i guess if it works it works.
To be honest I wish I did more investigation on both parts, both were lifted from good runing engines, both looked fine but I did no measuring since I had no tools and no time to spare. :(
And advance doesn't work, it was great on warm engine but on cold engine it hardly start and sound painful. :-\
Running at 1.40 or more means you have more issues. I have less compression than your setup and run .94mm. At 1.40 the pressure will rise in the precup to the point it will fail much sooner. Fix your engine and head.
These issues should show with compression test, right?
Because I plan to test it as soon as possible, I still believe this engine should be fine internally.
What are compression numbers to be expected from healty frankenengine?
What's the braking pressure on the injectors?
I had them tested but after compression test I plan to install AAZ injectors, I can get them for cheap so it is logical next step if compr. is ok.
Is it possible that mixing TD and NA injectors would cause these issues? I believe they are all 1.6 TD injectors but it's kind of hard to tell them apart and there is tiny possibility that they got mixed up...
Running at 1.40 or more means you have more issues. I have less compression than your setup and run .94mm. At 1.40 the pressure will rise in the precup to the point it will fail much sooner. Fix your engine and head.
Or his pump isn't actually a VW pump. Entirely possible.
This pump was running on 1.6TD great before, is it possible standing for half a year caused some issue? I never quite understood when people say it could be 180°out of sync, isn't that impossible if you measure by clock?
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What was it timed at on the 1.6?
Yes, an NA injector mixed in would definitely cause some weird running conditions. NA injectors pop earlier than TD ones which in turn advances the timing. That's why NA cars have less base timing. In your case though things seem to be going the other way.
Re: being 180 out... The dial indicator just tells you the height of the plunger. It doesn't know which port is going to fire next.
Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
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A compression test will not show peak cylinder pressure, fuel is required to get that.
You should easily have over 380 psi in every hole if the engine is healthy.
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being 180 out can be quickly determined by noting the keyway position in the shaft of the IP, if proper it points to 10 oclock. Or you can determine with a crack of the injector line at the back of the pump. TDC should be delivering it to #1.
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compression and leakdown test would really help to figure this out at this point. also figuring out your injectors, that could definitely contribute to white white smoke and that weird idle of yours.
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being 180 out can be quickly determined by noting the keyway position in the shaft of the IP, if proper it points to 10 oclock. Or you can determine with a crack of the injector line at the back of the pump. TDC should be delivering it to #1.
X2,if nobody open IP
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UPDATE:
Tested when cyl. get fuel, it's no problem there.
Got a friendly retired mechanic to test my compression, one cly. really is bit low which causes one missing hole while cold.
But he claims it should still run fine in the summer.
He also insists that this is not the source of my problem,
saying I have either air in my IP or other problems with my IP.
So tomorrow first thing in morning I am putting it all back together and will try to flood the pump first, then if that still doesn't work I am installing my other pump.
Pulling engine apart is still last option in my list, will report end result when I have it.
Thank you all once more.
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You have clear fuel lines to and from the pump now right?
Even clear lines between the injectors will tell you things.
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It'd be a worthwhile exercise to swap the pump no matter what, you know how to set timing already so you're 90% of the way there. If you have one pop it in there and let's see what happens!
Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk
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do you remember the compression numbers?
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update :-\
changed the pump and fuel lines (there were some bubbles on return line) no difference.
Then I realized I don't really know what the actual reading was, since the guy who tested it said ''it should still run in summer'' and that was all I wanted to hear. Measure of course was in BAR instead psi.
3x15, 1x13 bar, that is around 220 and 190 psi. :-[ This was dry, cold engine measure so it really is a bit higher warm, but still, definitely, this engine in not healthy enough to eat 2BAR of boost. I am shocked it still started on 2,3rd crank.
Now I am cursing myself badly I didn't pressure him to repeat the test wet, with squirt of oil, so at least I would know if I have problem in the bottom or the head.
Will report here with any updates, but between school, work and zero'd bank account I am definitely giving this whole thing a rest for at least another (horrible) month.
I will be searching for cheap NA engine, then I am slapping my turbo on it and turning boost down to 1bar and IP back to stock. Frankensteining will have to wait.
But before that I will definitely be buying compression tester. I still can't believe I bough lemon engine, and all could be prevented with simple 50buck tool.
Lesson from this? Never buying engine or car without compression test in advance, never f#&%n again. ::)
Thank you all once more.
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you shouldn't put oil into the holes of a diesel engine to compression test...think about how a diesel lights. Granted your compression stinks, but it is the idea.
This is 100% of what I had figured. You have a very whipped engine/head combo. If you are going to be putting a lower compression head onto the engine it really should be in good shape. That said 200 compression is about 1/2 of what it should be. My guess is the rings are shot and the head needs valves at a minimum.
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50$ tool to tell you what you can find out by turning the engine by hand?
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fatmobile, I would bet 2 dollars to a Voodoo Doughnut that most folks couldn't decide if a diesel engine is good or bad by turning it by hand. Some would think that much resistance means something is sticking or valves are not opening. If it was worn out and compression was shot they might think all it well.
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We gotta build us'ns a wall to fend off'n those blue ink refugees.....
Yes, I know....it just got 10 feet taller.
Wait...put some clear lines on it........
Roll that pump back and forth like a monkey with a coconut.....
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50$ tool to tell you what you can find out by turning the engine by hand?
Well maybe you are turning engine by hand every day to know when you have good or bad compression,
but the rest of us are using starter motor to do that so we aren't so sensitive about it.
So I am investing 50 bucks to prevent myself from throwing 100 on some POS engine.
We gotta build us'ns a wall to fend off'n those blue ink refugees.....
Yes, I know....it just got 10 feet taller.
Wait...put some clear lines on it........
Roll that pump back and forth like a monkey with a coconut.....
What? I hope you are OK...
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I've given a good description on how to check compression by hand several times,... I'll tell you again.
If you are turning the crank with a socket on the crank bolt and it wants to turn backwards; compression is above 375psi.
It can still turn a little hard below that,.. down to 325. Then it kinda just goes around with some effort but not much.
If it tries to push itself backwards it's real good.
There that doesn't sound hard does it?
You don't really picture me turning engines over by hand every day do you? ha.
I don't work on cars every day, I don't even have a garage and work on cars outside when needed. There's a more accurate picture for you.
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Fats, Thanks for the hand to gauge correlation. I have never seen that before. I have a gauge but like it was said. I use the starter to crank it when I am checking the numbers. Never thought to do a hand turn at the same time I had the gauge hooked up.
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I've given a good description on how to check compression by hand several times,... I'll tell you again.
If you are turning the crank with a socket on the crank bolt and it wants to turn backwards; compression is above 375psi.
It can still turn a little hard below that,.. down to 325. Then it kinda just goes around with some effort but not much.
If it tries to push itself backwards it's real good.
There that doesn't sound hard does it?
You don't really picture me turning engines over by hand every day do you? ha.
I don't work on cars every day, I don't even have a garage and work on cars outside when needed. There's a more accurate picture for you.
WTF??? My engine IS pushing back... I am always annoyed by that when timing the pump and it was the same when I was changing the pump. If you stop turning the engine before TDC it will turn back like it's on spring... Now either your hangauge doesn't really work or my compression tester was broken... Will try to turn it again today.
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I've given a good description on how to check compression by hand several times,... I'll tell you again.
If you are turning the crank with a socket on the crank bolt and it wants to turn backwards; compression is above 375psi.
It can still turn a little hard below that,.. down to 325. Then it kinda just goes around with some effort but not much.
If it tries to push itself backwards it's real good.
There that doesn't sound hard does it?
You don't really picture me turning engines over by hand every day do you? ha.
I don't work on cars every day, I don't even have a garage and work on cars outside when needed. There's a more accurate picture for you.
I don't like that gauge. If you turn an engine faster than not it will obscure the hand test and want to spin the engine back. I think it would be something you have to do yourself with a gauge and do your best guess at how hard and fast you turned the engine and how much it backed off. I would think for a diesel that is supposed to have 23:1 compression it would be a hard guess at best. Probably the only thing gained out of the test would be if all cylinders felt the same or one was completely dead. Maybe I am wrong but I don't see this as a good way to go without a gauge to test
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its a good test but only to tell the difference between completely bad and possibly good. you can definitely spot an engine that is totally clapped out this way, but if you are feeling compression its hard to tell if its just ok or if its really good.
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I discovered today it's only running on cyl. 1 and 4.
Then I swapped injectors around and now it's only running on 2,3.
Also hand dial almost broke my hand when I tried to spin it faster (spanner rebound on compression made me hit oil pan rather hard).
I suspect guys dial was broken. I find it hard to believe this engine would be starting and running this well on 2 cylinders with half compression gone. Also smoke disappears when I undo fuel lines to faulty injectors.
Anyway one cyl. was already found to be leaking, but it's still a nightmare because I tried 2 of my spare injectors and none of them seems to work. I have 2 more spares, but I didn't want to annoy neighbors anymore and I am covered with fuel so I called it a day.
I just pray that tomorrow other 2 injectors work, if that fixes it I could take a trip to Worthersee for maiden voyage (its pretty close to where I live so I am not going crazy don't worry... )
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Get a set of injectors rebuilt pronto... Crappy spray patterns and mismatched pop pressures won't do you any favours. You can do IDI injectors yourself if you have the time, you'll need to make a pop tester.
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So all the smoke was from two injectors fouled up? And you have spares? Time to at least crack some apart and pretty them up on the ends. I use a 10 power hand lens to see the tips.
Going to file that possibility in the back of the brain. Seems when folks claim smoke we just jump on the timing/180 out/fuel line with air route. Good to know that you make be close to cruising with this lil bugger.
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i didn't listen to it, but i agree it sounds retarded
LOL are you are mocking me??? :) HAHA
now seriously,I will definitely advance the timing to 1.15 before I start it next time. You were the only one to give at least approximate number, thankyou...
Yeah mine smoked about that much but it was probably colder outside then. I put the stock head back on.
Sounds like you gave up fast, did you try to advance the timing before you put stock back?
Advance! Advance!
Sounds retarded to my ear across the internet. If it improves when pulling the cold start handle (It's NOT A CHOKE!) then bumping up the timing would be prudent. The cold start handle adds a few degrees of advance when pulled.
You seem to have good ear, would you say it's only running on three cyl's? Someone on FB said so but I can't hear (I am about 50%deaf so I really can't hear well)
Anyway I hope timing does the trick, but if it doesn't and this really is nature of the beast I plan on installing block heater. I hate driving cold engine anyway...
I was the one on FB that said it sounded like it was running on 3...you cannot expect to grab anything on the shelf and expect these engines to run perfectly. Please fix what you know is bad and get a baseline.
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This engine is POS.
car just ran for 30 seconds without key in it on injectors that were tested perfect few hours ago
It is only luck it didn't run away on me.
I am done. I am getting drunk today and I am forgetting about it until summer.
I put all I have into this pc of sht and it's turned it's back on me. There is no god and no justice there is only the next thing in life waiting to fck you up.
Thankyou for all support and help everyone.
Be safe.
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90% there is junk stuck in the fuel shut off solenoid
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Wouldn't that mean there is something internally wrong with the IP? Well, Maybe not if something like a line was gone south between the filter and the IP.
Could be the Solenoid itself. I have seen those degrade over time too.
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So possibly the selenoid was stuck, I am not sure either way. Still there is this huge smoke coming from the car I used to love, and I 've finally had it, so I've gone and bought myself a honda. I thought V-tec will help heal wound left by my backstabbing frankenegine, but honestly, it didn't work.
I still miss real power of turbodiesel a lot.
I 've arranged a mechanic buddy of mine to check compression (just doublechecking) and come see for possible problems but he ''forgot'' three times now so I don't think he will be of any help.
I don't plan to fiddle with this anytime soon, school and work not allowing, but I just wanted to throw some info out for you to chew:
-I notice air coming from between all 4 injectors and cylinder head (if I pour diesel over them) where thread for injector is in the head. I wonder, is this normal? New injector washers make no difference. Everything is clean, no cracks that I can see, torqued to spec... This really bothers me because I guess it could affect compression measurement tiny bit.
-What is normal distance between cam and liters? Did you ever hear of hydraulic lifters needing adjustment? Can this be adjusted in the car by ''amateur'' ? I can't really see any gap between them but that doesn't really say anything without tools...
-Bubbles in return line (only from pump side, not from injectors). Really tiny tiny bubbles but there are some, is that normal? Did anyone ever check what comes out of return line? No leaks, all lines are new, changed 2 pumps, still some bubbles...
I know there probably no helping it, compression being so low, but still, tiny bit of hopes there is some other problem that can be solved....
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Since I am chewing lunch I might as well ingest some of this diesel stuff as well.
Having a friend that forgets all the time is not a friend at all.
Is it really air coming out between the injectors and the head? Or is it the diesel just boiling there? I have seen diesel leak out of those tiny hoses and it looks like it is foaming away down there when in fact it is just boiling away. But if you do have a leak it would go both ways. So a short shot of some ether over those injectors will make the engine rev up. Don't confuse ether going into front of the intake with that going in by the injectors. Put some sort of cardboard deflector up and just use a tiny press on the can nozzle. I mean super short shot.
Distance between cam and lifters? Depends if the engine is hot or cold and if you are measuring an intake or an exhaust valve. Specs in the Bentley but I think they are in the ball park of 15 thousands for the intake and 25 for the exhaust? It has been a long time since I floated those feeler gauges between those points. And you have to do it with the right sequence so there is no pressure on the lobs. TDC of each cylinder. You don't adjust hydro lifters but they can get out of whack and don't do right.
Bubbles in the line? If in the return line that means air in the pump or it is coming in from the injector hoses. Really tiny bubbles may just be the diesel under a vacuum and is pulling the air out of it. It has been demonstrated to be a problem on lines or filters that are plugged ahead of the IP.
Correct the compression and then worry about the above. That's my advice.