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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: malone on November 04, 2005, 02:33:26 am
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It's been a while since I first Gteched my 1.6TD! Here's the original dyno of the bone stock 1.6TD (factory rated 69HP) from mid April of this year:
Stock 1.6TD
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/malone_stock2.jpg)
If you are unfamiliar with Gtech you can learn more about it at http://www.gtechpro.com. Gtech HP and TQ values are normally lower than values from a common vehicle dynamometer because the car experiences aerodynamic resistance and other resistances when it is actually moving on the road (with GTech in operation), unlike on a stationary dyno.
For reference, a stock MK3 VR6 that is factory rated at 172HP and usually reads 155 wheel HP on a dyno, averaged 132 net HP according to my Gtech.
My MK3 1997 Golf used to have a 1.8L 8v gasoline engine that's factory rated at 90HP. Its power/tq is shown in black. The red line is my current 1.6TD in the same car with the LDA device (boost pin) inactive. I was just curious to see how the 1.6TD's powerband compares without the LDA. Both 3rd gear pulls, with the exact same transmission.
1.8L 8v gas vs. 1.6TD in same chassis
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/8v_vs_16td_eco.jpg)
For some reason my old 1.8L 8v felt a bit underpowered. My friend's identical MK3 Golf CL 1.8L 8v feels a bit stronger and reported approximately 71HP on my Gtech. Anyway, the 1.6TD feels very nice for daily driving without the LDA - excellent "off boost" or eco-diesel style performance. More enjoyable than the 1.8L.
Driving with the LDA functional is a whole different story though :)
Here's a 1990 MK2 Jetta 2.0L 16v (factory rated 134hp) with a Neuspeed 91 octane chip and 2 1/2" crush bend exhaust. I think the shakiness is caused by his extremely stiff suspension, but all of his Gtech runs were very consistent:
MK2 2.0L 16v gas
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16v.jpg)
His 16v feels very strong and I was rather surprised at his 96 net HP result, but his vehicle weight was correct (weighed at a truck scale) and results were still consistent.
It was pouring rain non-stop in the last week so I had traction difficulties during high RPM while Gteching my 1.6TD recently, but here's the result anyway. The LDA is connected. It's compared against the same 2.0L 16v (green).
2.0L 16v vs. 1.6TD
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16v_vs_16td.jpg)
At 4,000 RPM in 3rd gear the wheels just let go. The redline is 6,500 but since the wheelspin occured I had to let off. When the road condition gets better I'll do a complete run.
I could not find the VR6 GTech plots but a friend is coming over here in 2 to 3 weeks from Vancouver island with his MK3 VR6 so we'll take more GTech plots in his car and compare it against my 1.6TD.
The air/water intercooler is still not functional (although EGTs were still within safe limits) and there was zero smoke during the acceleration. I can't even get it to smoke much above 1,800 RPM - it's seriously underfueled. Mayday Giles; this pump isn't providing enough fuel!! :D
The current turbo is a GT20 that spools quicker than a stock 1.6 turbo, thanks to the overall fueling and airflow improvement since the 1.6 engine rebuild. There's much more potential to come with intercooling, extra fueling, a better turbo, etc. :) The car really moves.. the low RPM torque is plentiful for daily driving and I seem to be benefiting well from the 1.6's rev capability; the power really picks up as the RPM climbs!
*edit: I combined the existing 1.6TD plots for a nice comparison. The power differences are pleasant :):
Stock 1.6TD (black) vs. Current 1.6TD (red)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16tdstock_vs_16tdmod.jpg)
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Its gonna be a monster!
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sweet, now come hook me up with the gtd nozzles buddy, i dont' get enough wheelspin in 3rd
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sweet, now come hook me up with the gtd nozzles buddy, i dont' get enough wheelspin in 3rd
I have a fresh set of GTD nozzles here :)
It'd be best to wait until I get a pop-tester so we can test and balance injectors with GTD nozzles prior to installing them.
Passenger may have a pop-tester before me though - whoever has the pop-tester, we'll go for the swap.
They might have a T3 or K24 turbo laying around too... you really could use the extra flow. :)
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The 1.6TD will be dynoed at Kinetic Motorsport which I believe has a Dyno Dynamics unit. That way we'll all see more credible WHP and WTQ figures. It might be 1 to 2 weeks from now as the vehicle still needs tuning.
Below 2,000 RPM there's white smoke with blue tint. Shudders under acceleration as well. Starts up in cold no problem, but idles rough until warmed up. It's been this way since the engine started the first time after rebuild. I initially thought it needed a little break-in / piston ring seating, but it's not it.
After approx. 2,000 RPM the engine runs fabulously, zero smoke. Blue smoke is still there @ idle even when the engine's warmed up. Puffs fairly big when I start in 1st gear. But after approx. 2,000 RPM it's not a problem.
I assumed that the fuel pump timing was retarded. However, we've set the pump timing from 0.92 to 0.97 many times (Gile's recommendation is 0.90 to 0.95) with no positive results. Setting the timing on other diesels wasn't a problem. Brand new OEM injectors was swapped in as well (I just had an extra set laying around), with no changes.
I believe the cylinder compression may still be low, we haven't done a second compression test yet because we wanted to wait a few more thousand kms.. but we might do it soon just to check. I still have the thickest 3-hole 1.9TD headgasket.
Lower compression = longer for cylinder to generate heat = timing retarded. Is my assumption correct? How much can compression affect fuel timing?
Any suggestions? I'll report back with compression #s and other info.
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Malone,
My friend lent me his Gtech last July... not the Pro model. I had just put in a set of 205 nozzles in my 96 Passat TDI. I did some runs in worst case scenario, July summer temps mid 90's, humidity 55%, GVW 3080 lbs on truck scale plus my 225 pounds I'm 6'6" tall.
Gtech gave me numbers of 96, 96, 92, 94, 97 hp.
Later on at night after things cooled down, I saw 97,100,99 for 3 runs.
Based on your experience with nozzles and chipping, as well as other losses experienced with Gtech, what would you estimate my crank HP at from a dyno? And possible torque figures? I really just need a ballpark set of numbers. Obviously these numbers are nothing to brag about, just for personal knowledge.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but your knowledge seems extensive with both IDI's and TDI's, I'm fascinated with what you can do with an old 1.6 TD on the street.
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Cheasetoast, we can pop test some injectors for you and maybe install a t3/t4 turbo :twisted:
Malone, compression does not affect fuel timing. I think there is an issue with the pump, I have tried timing all the way from .87 to 1.1 with no luck in getting rid of that smoke. The biggest problem is just off idle is starts missing, thats the shudder you are refferring to is because just off idle one of the cylinders is not firing. Seeing how it idles fine and throughotu the rest of the rev range there is no missing I think it is pump related.
Changing the headgasket to thiner one is not going to make a drastic enough change in compression to notice. I guess I'll have to do the math to show. The low compression is from running a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block, more valve surface area and bigger pre chambers and deck modifications. The deck modifications are what help the head flow so much but yes it lowers the compression. Your low compression isn't bad though, it starts instantly in the cold and idles. Those are your biggest concerns with lower compression diesel engines. IDI diesels always idle rough when they are stone cold and started up so don't worry :wink:
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Looking great Malone! Canīt wait the dyno results :D
The deck modifications are what help the head flow so much but yes it lowers the compression.
Have I missed something? What is that deck mod?
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Malone,
My friend lent me his Gtech last July... not the Pro model. I had just put in a set of 205 nozzles in my 96 Passat TDI. I did some runs in worst case scenario, July summer temps mid 90's, humidity 55%, GVW 3080 lbs on truck scale plus my 225 pounds I'm 6'6" tall.
Gtech gave me numbers of 96, 96, 92, 94, 97 hp.
Later on at night after things cooled down, I saw 97,100,99 for 3 runs.
Based on your experience with nozzles and chipping, as well as other losses experienced with Gtech, what would you estimate my crank HP at from a dyno? And possible torque figures? I really just need a ballpark set of numbers. Obviously these numbers are nothing to brag about, just for personal knowledge.
Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but your knowledge seems extensive with both IDI's and TDI's, I'm fascinated with what you can do with an old 1.6 TD on the street.
What GTech model was it? I can't recall a Gtech without "Pro". Here's the product lineup:
http://www.gtechpro.com/prod.html
The Competition Pro (MY 2001) and newer Gteches are more accurate because of RPM calibration, accelerometer calibration, and they show both HP and TQ curves instead of just peak HP numbers. I believe Jake (fpsGTD) has the Competition Pro. I have the Gtech Pro RR. I probably should have gotten the Competition as it's a more economicial choice and seems to work fine.
Gtech Pro SS may not let you upload plots to a computer. FYI to those who read this and is thinking of getting a Gtech.
If talking about a dyno, wheel HP is usually referred to, not crank HP. Crank or brake HP is measured at the engine flywheel. I think vehicle automakers like to tout crank HP numbers instead of the more practical wheel HP numbers because crank HP numbers are higher, which looks better on paper.
Perhaps wheel HP always being inconsistent across different dynos is the reason for using crank HP from the factory. Although the big automakers already have top quality dynos that are accurate but $$$$ to calibrate, not all automakers have them.
Your numbers (avg. ~96 net HP) are very nice with just a 0.205 nozzle upgrade. I have not Gteched an early Passat TDI (just the later TDIs and a couple MK3 Jetta TDIs) but the stock Gtech numbers w/ proper calibration in your car would average 80 net HP.
Gtech is most useful for comparing before/after modifications. Keep your Gtech results in mind, and next time if you get a chip or other mods, you can do another Gtech run with the SAME CALIBRATION to see the actual improvement.
*edit: I estimate your current wheel HP to be 105-115.
Cheers,
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130 g-tech net hp, and sounds like you still have a few more tricks. Very nice Malone! :) Keep us updated on the smoky idle / clattery start issue.
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Malone, compression does not affect fuel timing. I think there is an issue with the pump, I have tried timing all the way from .87 to 1.1 with no luck in getting rid of that smoke. The biggest problem is just off idle is starts missing, thats the shudder you are refferring to is because just off idle one of the cylinders is not firing. Seeing how it idles fine and throughotu the rest of the rev range there is no missing I think it is pump related.
Changing the headgasket to thiner one is not going to make a drastic enough change in compression to notice. I guess I'll have to do the math to show. The low compression is from running a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block, more valve surface area and bigger pre chambers and deck modifications. The deck modifications are what help the head flow so much but yes it lowers the compression. Your low compression isn't bad though, it starts instantly in the cold and idles. Those are your biggest concerns with lower compression diesel engines. IDI diesels always idle rough when they are stone cold and started up so don't worry :wink:
I was amazed at how small the 1.6TD pre-cup is compared to the NA 1.6 and 1.9TD pre-cups, so I can see the 1.9 pre-cup contributing to the lower compression. Tonight I will find my camera and post the close-up pictures.
Ok.. looks like a fuel pump swap may be in order, I need to send the modded pump to Giles for tweaking (more fuel) anyways :)
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130 g-tech net hp, and sounds like you still have a few more tricks. Very nice Malone! :) Keep us updated on the smoky idle / clattery start issue.
Thanks for the comment :) Will post updates on the smoky idle issue.
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Audi80, I modfied the deck of the head to flow more air :twisted: Still kind of a secrect for right now...
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Mark we need to get giles to give us way more fuel anyways :twisted: to compensate for all that airflow.
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Audi80, I modfied the deck of the head to flow more air :twisted: Still kind of a secrect for right now...
Damned you guys :evil: secrets :lol: I did a little mod too, but I donīt know if it was any good for power :roll: Did it just becouse my machinist told me to do.
I was wondering if your mod was something similar.
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Audi80, I modfied the deck of the head to flow more air :twisted: Still kind of a secrect for right now...
Damned you guys :evil: secrets :lol: I did a little mod too, but I donīt know if it was any good for power :roll: Did it just becouse my machinist told me to do.
I was wondering if your mod was something similar.
Every tuners has their little secrets :) Congrat guys for the great numbers.. keep up the good work!
Marc/
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Here's an early in-car video of my 1.6 TD:
http://media.putfile.com/Malon...audio (http://media.putfile.com/Malones-16TD---early-break-in-engine-audio)
The audio is very quiet, so turn up your speakers. The next video will show hard acceleration w/ boost, perhaps during a race against a 16v and a VR6.
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It sounds like your exhaust is hitting the beam. :D
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132Hp on the road is pretty impressive for a 1.6.
Those runs are with the GT20 of which you say it spools earlier than the stock K24/T3? Won't swapping the turbo for a K24/T3 with push your max HP/TQ up even more?
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132Hp on the road is pretty impressive for a 1.6.
Those runs are with the GT20 of which you say it spools earlier than the stock K24/T3? Won't swapping the turbo for a K24/T3 with push your max HP/TQ up even more up the rpm scale?
I just bought a G-Tech RR on ebay.. Can't wait to testdrive my caddy 8)
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It sounds like your exhaust is hitting the beam. :D
You have good ears :) There is virtually no play for the exhaust pipe between the pan and the beam, so hangers don't help much. I may get some insulation/padding in there, however.
*edit: Some of the rattle is also from the charge pipe tapping the top of the alternator.
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132Hp on the road is pretty impressive for a 1.6.
Those runs are with the GT20 of which you say it spools earlier than the stock K24/T3? Won't swapping the turbo for a K24/T3 with push your max HP/TQ up even more up the rpm scale?
I just bought a G-Tech RR on ebay.. Can't wait to testdrive my caddy 8)
Yes, the GT20 spools quicker than the T3 in one of my stock 1.6TDs. Keep in mind that my engine's overbored (1 PSI boost difference?) and generally has more fuel/airflow. I doubt switching to a K24/T3 will help. Not only the GT20 spools well it's more efficient too. Perhaps I'll throw up some compressor maps for comparison.
I do not know how the GT20 will perform on a mildly tuned 1.6L with just fueling bumped up. I can't see the turbo being very laggy on a 1.9TD anyway.
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What's ball park pricing on the smaller GT turbos? I have been looking at T3s for a while and know there is a huge spread, but I always assumed the GT Turbos to be $800-1500.
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What's ball park pricing on the smaller GT turbos? I have been looking at T3s for a while and know there is a huge spread, but I always assumed the GT Turbos to be $800-1500.
My GT20 turbo came in the Upsolute Stage III 1.9L TDI turbo kit I purchased in Summer 2004. My plans for the TDI changed so I decided to use that turbo & exhaust manifold for the TD. I don't know the price for a GT20 alone, or the ball park for other small GTs.
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It sounds like your exhaust is hitting the beam. :D
You have good ears :) There is virtually no play for the exhaust pipe between the pan and the beam, so hangers don't help much. I may get some insulation/padding in there, however.
*edit: Some of the rattle is also from the charge pipe tapping the top of the alternator.
What size is the exhaust? I don't think there would be any room with 3" tubing, but we got 2.5" over my axle and amazingly enough it doesn't rattle even with people in the back. I used to have 3" on my Rabbit and it basically sat on the axle.
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3" and the car is considerably lower than stock. It's definitely tight in there.
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I have a Weitec 60/40 GT kit and it's speed bump problem low :D
(Euro spec kit so it's lower than what Rapid sells)
Do you think the 3" is really necessary or just overkill?
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The T3 on my 1.9 is reaching 1.2 bar @ ~2700rpm, max torque of 180ftlb 3030 rpm so the GT20 would do just as well I think.
The GT15/17/20 are about 900 at the VW dealer.
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I have a Weitec 60/40 GT kit and it's speed bump problem low :D
(Euro spec kit so it's lower than what Rapid sells)
Do you think the 3" is really necessary or just overkill?
I jumped straight to 3" from OEM size. I have no experience with a smaller custom exhaust in this TD so I don't have a practical answer.
The VR6 guys past the 300HP stage have reported significant gains from just going to 3" from 2.5". Claimed gains are 50 to 60HP and I didn't believe it until a few more VR6 owners including a very reputable tuner mentioned the same thing with dyno charts to back it up. They weren't selling 3" exhausts either.
Of course, our TDs are not comparible to VR6s at all but I don't mind the 3" diameter anyway; it doesn't bother me and I don't feel like shelling out $ again for 2.5" exhaust with the possibility that it may hinder flow even a little bit. We're planning on installing a custom cam and getting a larger turbo that flows a looooot more air, but first I need a lot more fuel. And the intercooler needs to be functional. I also need better tires.
Appearance wise, I have a black downturned exhaust tip that makes it look like 2" (no gaping 3" hole staring down at drivers behind me). :)
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I do not know how the GT20 will perform on a mildly tuned 1.6L with just fueling bumped up. I can't see the turbo being very laggy on a 1.9TD anyway.
The T3 on my 1.9 is reaching 1.2 bar @ ~2700rpm, max torque of 180ftlb 3030 rpm so the GT20 would do just as well I think.
The GT15/17/20 are about 900 at the VW dealer.
1.2 bar 2,700 RPM is pretty good, I wonder how fast the T3 would spool on my 1.6TD in its current state (has more air and fuel now).
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Small typo, I have a K24, but thats about comparable to the T3.
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Of course, our TDs are not comparible to VR6s at all but I don't mind the 3" diameter anyway; it doesn't bother me and I don't feel like shelling out $ again for 2.5" exhaust with the possibility that it may hinder flow even a little bit.
Actually, I just did a quick calculation and found that an ungoverned, high-revving 1.6lTD boosted to 30 psi would flow the same exhaust gas volume as a VR6-T does at 14 psi.
The thing to do to test whether a larger exhaust is useful is to insert a pressure tube into the exhaust system at the turbine outlet, and run it to a pressure gauge. During a WOT run, any reading above perhaps 1 or 2 psi would likely mean that a freer flowing exhaust system offers increased performance.
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Actually, I just did a quick calculation and found that an ungoverned, high-revving 1.6lTD boosted to 30 psi would flow the same exhaust gas volume as a VR6-T does at 14 psi.
The thing to do to test whether a larger exhaust is useful is to insert a pressure tube into the exhaust system at the turbine outlet, and run it to a pressure gauge. During a WOT run, any reading above perhaps 1 or 2 psi would likely mean that a freer flowing exhaust system offers increased performance.
Thanks Jake! Can I see your calculations?
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Sure, Mark:
assuming both engines turn same max usable RPM (which I think is reasonable comparing a stock valvetrained VR6 with governor-removed 1.6lTD), and for simplicity, ignoring imperfect intercooler efficiency and volumetric efficiency (assuming they are perfect):
1.6lTD air flow per crank revolution at 35 psi:
= manifold absolute pressure * (1/2 of engine displacement)
= (1 + 35/14.7) * .8 liters
= 3.38 bar absolute * .8 liters
= 2.71 liters of air moved per crank revolution
solving for manifold absolute pressure of 2.8 liter VR6 with the same air moved per revolution:
2.71 = manifold absolute pressure * 1.4
manifold absolute pressure = 2.71 / 1.4
manifold absolute pressure = 1.936 bar absolute
On the VR6, the needed 1.936 bar absolute intake manifold pressure is .936 bar boost pressure, or about 14 psi boost pressure.
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i know it is a bit off topic of this thread but i think a lot of people would like to know what kind of economey goes along with thoes numbers on Molones 1.TD if you know that would be cool if you would post them
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i know it is a bit off topic of this thread but i think a lot of people would like to know what kind of economey goes along with thoes numbers on Molones 1.TD if you know that would be cool if you would post them
No odometer = no accurate MPG reading. I hope to get a GPS mapping/mileage device sometime around Christmas.
Anyway it's still quite early to record consistent MPG numbers. The TD isn't in its final tune: There'll be a different turbo, major fueling adjustment, low RPM smoke fix, etc. The non-intercooled 132 Gtech HP or approx. 150 wheel HP is a far cry from the ultimate goal. Until then I'm not going to bother trying to record MPG.
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Update:
I found that the HP peaks at approximately 5,000 RPM. That's quite out there for a TD! The OEM injectors that were recently swapped in are still in but when GTD nozzles are reinstalled and when the intercooler is functional, I will do a complete Gtech run and re-post.
In case anyone is wondering, the injection pump has a 9mm head. I doubt I will go for a 12mm head like a few people are because of some negative effects including RPM limitation. I redistributed a 12mm head to a friend and his pump was destroyed at 5,200 RPM. I later learned that there are least 338 different 12mm heads and only one of them has the highest max. RPM of 2,150 to 2,250 IIRC. Multiply that by 2 to get the crank RPM. That definitely will take a chunk off my upper powerband. I saw a 1.9L ALH TDI dyno at 190whp with a 12mm but he let off just prior to 4,500 RPM for fear of the pump's reliability.
10mm or 11mm are possible candidates for my application but I'd like to try upgrading injector nozzles first and then decide on the pump head upgrade.
I don't consider GTD nozzles as big nozzles because it's OEM off a ~70 to 80 BHP TD, still a relatively small upgrade from OEM 1.6 TD injectors. I'm starting to look into larger nozzle options.
The fuel screw on the injection pump was recently turned up to improve cold start. It did help. For the first time ever, I saw a grey cloud behind me at WOT before full boost. EGTs are the same during normal driving. As each day passes by I think I'm smoking less white/blue below 2,000 RPM. It still smokes a lot for about 3 city blocks after cold start, but overall it seems to be a little less now. I failed Aircare (emissions) a few days ago due to excess white smoke during an idle test (hardcore revving in neutral). The criteria to pass is 0-30% exhaust opacity. The average of all passing diesels is 6%. I got 49%. I don't think the white smoke right now is low enough to pass.. we'll have to do something about it. I might consider permitting Aircare do a rolling test because under load there's virtually no smoke and drives like a dream, although they'd probably do the hardcore neutral revving thing too.
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emissions testing... there's one area where my 1.6L TD rabbit has you beat, no e-test required :wink:
excellent work malone. keep us posted like you have been. i'm interested to see how the GTD nozzles will do vs. stock.
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emissions testing... there's one area where my 1.6L TD rabbit has you beat, no e-test required :wink:
excellent work malone. keep us posted like you have been. i'm interested to see how the GTD nozzles will do vs. stock.
Hehe! 20 years or older... gotta love it. I love how diesels are tested here in Ontario as well... visible smoke test at idle! You just can't fail that with a vw!
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excellent work malone.
Most readers tend to assume that the person presenting the information about a project is the person who did all the work on the project. I want to be clear that I can't take all the credit for this 1.6TD project. It would not be possible without Passenger Performance :) they deserve more credit.
jtanguay: That's how diesels are tested here as well. It's also known as an opacity test.
I Gteched the TD on dry road an hour ago. During my previous Gtech plots (shown on first page) I had injectors w/ GTD nozzles and higher opening pressure. Now I have smaller OEM injectors because we were trying to diagnose the low RPM white smoke issue. The pump's fuel screw was also turned up recently. The peak HP really isn't at 5,000 RPM - it's more like around 4,800 RPM.
The green and blue lines are two runs from before.. one of these runs were already shown in the first post of this thread. The black and red lines are from today.
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16td_nov11.jpg)
The recent Gtech plots confirmed my suspicion that the turbo indeed spools up slower now, which I find odd. However, after 3,200 RPM, holy crap the power/torque picks up real quick. Woo! what a ride :) It felt a lot like having a larger turbo now but I still have the same turbo with no change in boost control. Quite odd. The low boost/torque during lower RPM explains why I have grey smoke - the grey smoke is not just because of the fuel screw being turned up.
So why the turbo lag? Could it be because I downgraded to OEM injectors from GTD injectors? Highly unlikely. Could it be because we adjusted the fuel pump timing? Or could there be a small leak in the charge piping? There's still more tuning to come. Will check for boost leaks, etc. and then Gtech again when GTD injectors are reinstalled.
*edit; during daily driving in the last couple days I did notice less power below 3,000 RPM but it didn't feel significant. The car's still perfectly comfortable to drive in traffic with this power curve. However if I need accelerate quickly I did sometimes see a small puff of grey smoke @ low RPM because of less boost available.
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So are you comming out this weekend to try some injectors? We could go down to the 1/4 strip by the shop and try the oem, gtd, and benz injectors right there on the side of the road. Also I think its time we test the custom cams in this thing. Let me know.
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if you guys could post g-techs of the OEM vs. the GTD injectors with no other changes, i'd appreciate it :)
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So are you comming out this weekend to try some injectors? We could go down to the 1/4 strip by the shop and try the oem, gtd, and benz injectors right there on the side of the road. Also I think its time we test the custom cams in this thing. Let me know.
Dave I'll be at Paul's again today, tomorrow, and possibly Sunday to work on one or two diesel swaps, as well as cutting one MK1 Rabbit into half to make a trailer. :)
I might have time Sunday (evening?) to do Gtech runs with some injectors and cams. One WOT gear pull without intercooler is OK but I wouldn't want to try these Benz injectors until we can get some water system going on for the a/w intercooler... or install the FMIC. The EGT is already pushing it.
BlackTieTD: I'll try to do that, Gtech with only GTD injectors and no other changes :) will do Gtech runs with OEM injectors again on the same day just prior to nozzle upgrades.
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Found the problem: the LDA wasn't responding during lower RPM because of a small boost leak illustrated below:
(http://www.dieselinside.com/1.6td/boost_leak.jpg)
That's pretty common and not a big deal. I will get better clamps for some hose ends to ensure that the system remains air tight & fully pressurized.
The low RPM WOT smoke is now back :D And the torque below 3,200 RPM is restored as well.
I took a Gtech run again and compared it against the Oct 30 run. The recent Gtech plot (http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16td_nov11.jpg) should be disregarded:
(http://www.dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16td_nov11_fix.jpg)
Yep, that seems about right - what I expected after the fuel screw was turned up despite downgrading the injectors; more torque across the RPM range.
I will raise the LDA starwheel to increase tension on the boost pin's spring to eliminate smoke during lower RPM. Below 3,200 RPM I may expect similar torque to the Oct 30 setting, which is still more than enough, but after approx. 3,200 the extra torque should remain unchanged. The boost pin is fully depressed well below 30 PSI so I don't have to worry about losing top end if I raise the starwheel a little.
There is still no smoke after around 25 PSI or 3,200 RPM... need more max. fuel! :D
In the near future I will run an extra hose or two to the LDA, each having restrictors to limit airflow to the LDA. A wide open hose will maximize airflow to the LDA, allowing plenty of fuel starting at low RPM. A restricted hose will minimize airflow to the LDA, eliminating smoke during lower RPM and may not affect high RPM fueling depending on how easily the boost pin is depressed. The hoses will be controlled via an electronic switch in-car. Basically a Street mode and Race/anti-Tailgater mode. I won't be able to hold all the power to the road in either mode this Winter anyway :D
Next up: Gtech with GTD injectors.
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I drew a diagram to clarify the LDA control:
(http://www.dieselinside.com/1.6td/lda_switch.jpg)
A single 3-way dial switch is an option; LDA off, LDA lo, and then LDA hi. It'd have one incoming 12v wire and two outgoing 12v wires for separate solenoids.
Why LDA off? Disabling LDA completely makes a huge difference in torque as low as 2,000 RPM. It would help traction control in very slippery road conditions. It can also be considered as valet mode.
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I did a couple Gtech runs with GTD injectors installed and no other changes since the Gtech plot above. I didn't feel more power after installing the GTDs and only saw 132 and 135 net hp. Just like the black lines (Oct 30 w/ GTDs) in the above Gtech plot. A little less torque too (approx. 145lb-ft). This is despite having turned up the fuel screw since the above Gtech plot. Not impressed!!
However, I want to get a FMIC in and then do a few more Gtech runs.. then reinstall OEM injectors and do more Gtech runs the same day. While the GTDs are out I'd like to get them pop-tested as well for consistency and spray quality. They only have approx 1,500km on them though.
Perhaps gains from GTDs are more noticable if your original nozzles are old and worn. My OEM injectors (complete, not just nozzles) are brand-spankin' new with approx. 500km on them. I want to see how the GTD injectors perform in a pop-tester first though.
The opening pressure in my GTD injectors (new GTD nozzles in very old TD injector bodies) have been raised to 160 Bar IIRC. The OEM injectors are unmodified.
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thanks for the info malone. what you found is what i was a leary about... there's not much (if anything) to be gained from GTD injectors. i'm watching closely, thanks again for the feedback about the injectors. :)
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The opening pressure in my GTD injectors (new GTD nozzles in very old TD injector bodies) have been raised to 160 Bar IIRC. The OEM injectors are unmodified.
In my experience, raising the breaking pressure will effectively retard the timing. Advancing the timing a bit may well restore the missing power. Its pretty much impossible to say what amount of advance would be required to compensate for the increase in breaking pressure. To make an accurate comparison you probably should run the stock nozzles at 160 bar or drop the breaking pressure on the GTD nozzles back to stock.
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might not be a bad idea to log another 1000 clicks on the OEM injectors as well to rule out wear variables, athough 1000km shouldn't make any difference.
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Thanks for the informative responses.
Rather than advance my pump to compensate I'll lower the GTD injectors' breaking pressure to OEM spec while they're being pop-tested (or raise the breaking pressure in OEM injectors.. but would rather try OEM specs first). Will have a pop-tester made eventually.
Cheers,
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Cool pop tester. Mine is similar, "high end ghetto" :D . Its constructed from a cab jack pump from a cab-over freightliner truck. Tank is 4x6 steel tubing. The guage is a sweet ashcroft 4" 5000psi unit, princess auto surplus special for $30. I have a "real" pop testor that was donated recently, but I much prefer the ghetto unit, the guage is better quality and it doesn't require bench mounting.
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That is awesome!! Again the info is appreciated :)
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Mark, I am curious as to why the sharp drop off in power and torque at 5250 RPM. Do you know if it's a fueling limitation, airflow dropping off or something else?
And is this with the stock TD cam, or one of 935racer's performance cams?
Thanks!
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Mark, I am curious as to why the sharp drop off in power and torque at 5250 RPM. Do you know if it's a fueling limitation, airflow dropping off or something else?
And is this with the stock TD cam, or one of 935racer's performance cams?
Thanks!
Stan, I believe that's a fuel cut-off. It feels quite abrupt a lot like a stock TD's fuel cut off at around 4,500 RPM. Still using stock TD cam but will try 935racer's performance cams.
I was hoping the injection pump will continue fueling a little longer because that's where the peak HP is, and the cut-off will especially limit the upper RPM potential with a larger turbo. Will need to check the governor mod.. or send the pump back to Giles for tweaking as I also need a 10mm or 11mm head upgrade.
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Ah...I was hoping you would identify the governor as the cause. It looks to me as if you can get to over 160 hp at something over 6000 RPM with your present setup if you can address the fuel cutoff issue.
That's pretty radical for a 1.6 diesel... :lol:
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If the torque drops off at the same rate without the 5,200 RPM cut-off then I'd likely see 148nhp at 6,000 RPM. That's still usable power in a long gear pull but as you said eliminating the fuel governor completely combined with a 10mm head, 935racer's cam, intercooling, and maybe a more efficient & larger turbo should reduce the rate of torque dropping off during higher RPM.. so an extra 20nhp (160nhp) is plausible :D If my Gtech calibration is accurate then that might translate into approximately 180 wheel hp. Still need a dyno to verify Gtech #s.
I am glad that I'm not making much torque for the hp, which is easier on the engine (rods have 290 wheel torque limit from what I gather) and so it leaves room for more safe hp. On the other hand, with a single large turbo I won't have much torque in the lower end and that may reduce the fun in daily driving.
Compound turbocharging seems to be the way to go, but that won't happen too soon as I don't have much 'entertainment funds' for the car. While we do the turbo swap we also want to get prechambers ceramic coated, which is cheap. Then there are a few other things we'd like to add, like finally port & polishing the exhaust ports. This means I should get a second back-up vehicle because I work nearly everyday. A friend has a 1.6NA Rabbit that he may sell in a couple months, it starts up like a champ every time while barely needing glowplugs. Good power too. That'll likely be my temporary vehicle.
I'm really itching to get an FMIC installed but 935racer does TIG welding and he prefers to wait until the turbo upgrade because of the differently positioned turbo, which may require a reweld in FMIC piping (only on the hot side).
I can fill my a/w intercooler with ice water (because it does not circulate it will melt quickly) during each dyno run though, so chances are we can still do a dyno with this GT20 turbo soon enough. Instead of waiting for the FMIC I may consider making a ghetto water system with a plastic reservoir in a hatch and perhaps a fuel pump from a EFI big block American car as Brett suggested. A large radiator is cheap and easy to upgrade too. If there's potential for the a/w to be more efficient than FMIC by upgradnig the water pump again later, then I may just keep it and not need the FMIC anymore.
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I am making a pop tester like the ones pictured above can't wait for it to be done :D
I am planning on instaling a 10mm head very soon in marks car It should make a big difference.
Mark all the piping needs to be changed when the new turbo goes on because it is sitting in a completely different spot, the air filter pipe needs to be different, the charge piping needs ot be differnt, you need a differnt downpipe etc. Best to do it once do it right and do it all at once.
I want to try ome cams before the pump and turbo mods though.
I think with the bigger turbo, additional headwork, FMIC, cam, and pump head will get us up to 200whp :twisted:
When I put a bigger head on I can check the governor situation as well, I like to take the pump top off for head swaps anyways so after I reninstall the new head I can see that everything is in place and is as it should be.
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I agree with your conclusions, Mark. When I lay a straight edge from peak torque to the little torque bump at ~5100 RPM, and continue to to 6000 RPM, I extrapolate the torque to 130 lbs-ft. Using the standard equation, I get:
HP = (Torque*RPM)/5252, so (130*6000)/5252 = 148.5 hp.
Using the same technique for 6500 RPM, I estimate about 120 lbs-ft, so
(120*6500)/5252 = 148.5 again.
Hmm, there appears to be some sort of bottleneck, as I would have expected somewhat greater hp if nothing was cutting off air or fuel. I'm thinking it may not be a fueling issue since the torque drop-off is very linear between 3900 RPM and 5100 RPM.
However, since this is the stock TD cam, with a design peak torque at only about 2000 RPM, I suspect the cam is choking your engine at higher RPMs. If Dave's new cam helps the top end as much as it appears to, then another 10 hp appears very doable to me.
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Hmm, there appears to be some sort of bottleneck
since this is the stock TD cam, with a design peak torque at only about 2000 RPM, I suspect the cam is choking your engine at higher RPMs.
Thanks.. I'm also willing to bet that the GT20 is also a bottleneck. As stated in one of my posts, blipping the throttle (almost WOT) to 4,500 RPM while in neutral kicks the boost up 15 PSI. That's with 2.5" dia. charge piping too (although shorter than FMIC piping). I also have a 6lb flywheel that reduces rotational mass so revving without boost would have been easy.. but still 15 PSI with no vehicle load :eek: Holds 8.5 PSI while cruising in 5th gear @ 3,000 RPM. The turbo's nice for daily driving but it's almost "too small." The GT20's compressor map also indicates that it may be highly inefficient for this application.
You can say I'm definitely looking forward to 935racer's cam and a turbo upgrade. The 10mm and governor mod too.
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Couple of quick questions, Mark.
This is a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block, right? Any porting done of the head?
Is the GT20 the same thing as a VNT20?
Thanks!
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Yes it is a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block, I have done a substantial amount of port work and there is stil more to come. I also modified the deck of the head near the valves to improve airflow, this made a huge differnence in flow and in overall engine sound. There is still more headwork to come however and maybe some pics as well. The gt20 is not a vnt type turbo it is a traditionally wastegated turbo.
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This is a 1.9 head on a 1.6 block, right? Any porting done of the head?
Yes 1.9 on 1.6, and only the intake ports were ported. 935racer did some deck mods as well.
Is the GT20 the same thing as a VNT20?
In what aspect? Anyway I don't have a GT20v that uses VNT, my GT20 has a wastegate. Both turbos can't really be compared.
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Thanks for the quick reply, Mark, I was trying to place the GT20 in the pantheon of turbos, and one of my questions was if it had the variable nozzle.
Deck modifications? :shock: Is that the deck of the head or the top of the piston?
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Thanks for the quick reply, Mark, I was trying to place the GT20 in the pantheon of turbos, and one of my questions was if it had the variable nozzle.
Deck modifications? :shock: Is that the deck of the head or the top of the piston?
Yeah the VNT20 or GT20v (with VNT) are quite popular in the hot-rod diesel community (TDI in particular) so it's easy to assume that my GT20 is VNT.
As 935racer put it just above my previous post, the deck of the head was modified. Pistons are unmodified OEM.
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hi guys
Marks pump already has the full governor removal mod
when i did his pump it had all the good stuff done
100 % fuel increase over stock with no increase to the no
boost setting.
almost 20 deg pump timing advance
the limitation to the fueling is due to the rotary camplate inside the
pump.
at speeds above 5000 the rollers on the cam start to skip and you
don't get the full pump lift anymore. i have increased the tension
on the internal springs but with the current parts we're using i can't
upgrade to the Cummins return springs.
i can only use the Cummins springs if we upgrade the Head, cam plate
drive shaft and a few other pieces too.
i can only geuss the price of all those parts. maybe $1500
Giles
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Thanks for adding this important information, Giles. For my purposes this is still "not too bad" news, since my objective is endurance racing anyway, and where 140 hp will make me competitve in my class (ESR, where the 110 hp gasser Spec Racer Ford is king in races longer than about 6 hours).
Giles, rather than adding stiffer springs, is there another pump more appropriate for sustained high RPM running, or is 5000-6000 RPMs going to be about the max for a mechanical pump?
Thanks!
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hi guys
Marks pump already has the full governor removal mod
when i did his pump it had all the good stuff done
100 % fuel increase over stock with no increase to the no
boost setting.
almost 20 deg pump timing advance
the limitation to the fueling is due to the rotary camplate inside the
pump.
at speeds above 5000 the rollers on the cam start to skip and you
don't get the full pump lift anymore. i have increased the tension
on the internal springs but with the current parts we're using i can't
upgrade to the Cummins return springs.
i can only use the Cummins springs if we upgrade the Head, cam plate
drive shaft and a few other pieces too.
i can only geuss the price of all those parts. maybe $1500
Giles
What do you mean by drive shaft? Are you referring to the shaft which connects to the sprocket and is there a need for the larger one?
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hi guys
Marks pump already has the full governor removal mod
when i did his pump it had all the good stuff done
100 % fuel increase over stock with no increase to the no
boost setting.
almost 20 deg pump timing advance
the limitation to the fueling is due to the rotary camplate inside the
pump.
at speeds above 5000 the rollers on the cam start to skip and you
don't get the full pump lift anymore. i have increased the tension
on the internal springs but with the current parts we're using i can't
upgrade to the Cummins return springs.
i can only use the Cummins springs if we upgrade the Head, cam plate
drive shaft and a few other pieces too.
i can only geuss the price of all those parts. maybe $1500
Giles
Thanks for the info Giles :) this is a little more detailed than I gathered from 935racer's phone conversation with you.
I want to say that your pump seriously kicks ass, it's a major contributor to this TD's performance. Basic pump DIY stuff doesn't cut it. Now that 935racer managed to make this car virtually smoke-free with his head work, I have to get back to you for more fueling solutions! :D It's like the story of a general developing a superior tank during World War II - he takes the tank to a armour builder and tells them to develop an armour that will resist a shell. He then takes it to an armourer and tells them to make new shells that will pierce this armour. Then he goes back to the amour builder again for an armour upgrade and so on.
Giles, would it be possible to get custom TD style return springs with tension that is comparible to the Cummins springs you mentioned? Accompanied with a mild 10mm or 11mm pump head upgrade it might do the job without needing to spend excessively on other Cummins parts. I need to rev higher. I didn't buy heavy duty valve springs for nothing! :) How did the TD drag vehicles that rev up to 7,000 RPM do it?
By logic I'm not sure how Cummins return springs would help me rev higher. Cummins have very low rev and although their springs are stiffer, throwing in a high lift camplate might negate my chance to rev well past 5,000 RPM. A 12mm head also seems to have reliability issues after the 5,000RPM point. I've seen a few explode.. including a friend's whose I sent a 12mm head to.
Regardless, have you by any chance built a TD pump like this and found good results past 5k RPM? Say up to 6,500 or even 7,000 RPM? I understand if you haven't because this is an extreme TD example, 1.6L even.
Your contribution to TD performance is greatly appreciated.
If, ultimately, revving past 5,000 RPM with 10mm or 11mm head and custom TD springs is not feasible, then I will consider going the Cummins route and keep my powerband below 5,000 RPM if required to maintain pump reliability. Could have lots more torque to get a fair increase in HP. This would further necessitate a compound turbo setup.
Cheers,
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hi again
i have some new ideas about it but i'm not going to share. just to tell
u that i will need a 11 or 12 mm head to use and then change some
other parts to match it
i think that i can do it.
u give me the head, your pump or another one and i'll make u a pump
that will rev 7K!!!!
i'll love to try it.
when i drove bryson's old 1.6L that was dynoed at 125HP and it had no
problem rev to 6K
Giles
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hi again
i have some new ideas about it but i'm not going to share. just to tell
u that i will need a 11 or 12 mm head to use and then change some
other parts to match it
i think that i can do it.
u give me the head, your pump or another one and i'll make u a pump
that will rev 7K!!!!
i'll love to try it.
when i drove bryson's old 1.6L that was dynoed at 125HP and it had no
problem rev to 6K
Giles
This'll be an exciting development. I'll contact you very soon :)
Cheers,
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I'm excited and I am just reading about it!
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hi again
i have some new ideas about it but i'm not going to share. just to tell
u that i will need a 11 or 12 mm head to use and then change some
other parts to match it
i think that i can do it.
u give me the head, your pump or another one and i'll make u a pump
that will rev 7K!!!!
i'll love to try it.
when i drove bryson's old 1.6L that was dynoed at 125HP and it had no
problem rev to 6K
Giles
:shock: Not into speed myself; but if I was then I'd take a large bore head 12mm or whatever and then machine what I think must be one of the main limiting factors which is the cam plate so that it was a relatively low profile which IMO would reduce potential takeoff of the follower at high speed. Reduced motion of piston has to be a plus for any given quantity of fuel injection compared with small bore... "short stroke theory and all that guff"
Just trying to help; but not easy with the experts here but you never know :)
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Malone,
What GTech model was it? I can't recall a Gtech without "Pro". Here's the product lineup:
http://www.gtechpro.com/prod.html
The Competition Pro (MY 2001) and newer Gteches are more accurate because of RPM calibration, accelerometer calibration, and they show both HP and TQ curves instead of just peak HP numbers. I believe Jake (fpsGTD) has the Competition Pro. I have the Gtech Pro RR. I probably should have gotten the Competition as it's a more economicial choice and seems to work fine.
Gtech Pro SS may not let you upload plots to a computer. FYI to those who read this and is thinking of getting a Gtech.
If talking about a dyno, wheel HP is usually referred to, not crank HP. Crank or brake HP is measured at the engine flywheel. I think vehicle automakers like to tout crank HP numbers instead of the more practical wheel HP numbers because crank HP numbers are higher, which looks better on paper.
Perhaps wheel HP always being inconsistent across different dynos is the reason for using crank HP from the factory. Although the big automakers already have top quality dynos that are accurate but $$$$ to calibrate, not all automakers have them.
Your numbers (avg. ~96 net HP) are very nice with just a 0.205 nozzle upgrade. I have not Gteched an early Passat TDI (just the later TDIs and a couple MK3 Jetta TDIs) but the stock Gtech numbers w/ proper calibration in your car would average 80 net HP.
Gtech is most useful for comparing before/after modifications. Keep your Gtech results in mind, and next time if you get a chip or other mods, you can do another Gtech run with the SAME CALIBRATION to see the actual improvement.
*edit: I estimate your current wheel HP to be 105-115.
Cheers,
Malone.... Been out doing the Steelhead flyfishing thing here in Nor California.... sorry I am so slow in getting back to you.
The Gtech Pro was the 1994 model... and I got ahold of it again and got popped by the cops... The darn thing is addictive, I shouldn't be doing what I was on streets in Los Angeles. Air temperature seems to play a big factor in what I get for HP, as well as fuel. While the air is denser in winter... I had some summer fuel saved in a 55gallon drum that I ran... I'm seeing 100 to 103 hp with that in the tank, and when I run fresh Arco ULSD which is now winter blend, the Gtech is showing 90 to 95 whp. What is up with that? That's like 6 to 10% difference?
One other thing... the summer blend on a cold morning with the engine warmed up smokes like a coal powered steam engined train. Temps are in the mid 40's late night when I do my runs. But damn... I can really feel a seat of the pants difference in the fuel. Maybe it's temperature density differnece for my fuel or my fuel temp sensor in my Bosch VE?
I like to play with the mpg competitions on Fred's and my fuel mpg with the winter blend sucks... I've lost like 6 to 8% on my mpg with the winter blend fuel. The stuff just doesn't make as much power and the mileage goes down with it too.... I may as well be running biodiesel.
Great thread.... Man I hope you can get 6500 rpm and 160hp from a TD... that will be a major accomplishment in a VW IDIi TD 1.6.
I had a hard time with shipping getting Smog's nozzles into the USA.. the customs folks were tough to to appease... but he sent me a set of VEG 205's and whatever they are... Lordy do I like what they do for my car.
I went to a GTG here in Los Angeles yesterday... Got a ride in a rare Made in Germany 99.5 Golf Coupe with PP520's and one of your chips... The young man brought dyno slips... 139 at the wheel and 292 ft/lb's of torque. The turbo was spiking at 22 psi on his gauge.... this was the day before his Dawes device arrived. He runs it now at 18. What ever chip he has that you did for him... it is kick-azz for a TDI, just really impressive 60 to 80mph figures for safely passing a tractor trailer rig on a 2 lane highway here in the USA.
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What exactly blows up when a 12mm head is revved too high?
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=406
Jake detailed what was occurring on his. This is getting very interesting...
Malone, any plans to put the car on a chassis dyno once your calibrations, tuning, etc. is done? That'd be interesting to see :)
Joe
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DutchTouch, that seems like a pretty big difference between Summer and Winter fuel. I don't know how Summer vs. Winter fuel compares up here. I started driving this 1.6TD about 3 to 4 weeks ago. Would be nice if I could run Summer fuel for a while. I have yet to find what my mpg is either without an odometer :)
Glad he likes the chip... :)
RabbitGTDguy, what were you trying to convey by posting that link? There's some different info in there.. :) If it's concerning head damage from revving too high, fspGTD overrevved during a mis-shift (downshift instead of upshift). I have the necessary pieces in my 1.9 head that should be able to tolerate high sustained revs so I'm not worried.
Absolutely, I want to get this thing on a chassis dyno after it's tuned.
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I was talking about injection pumps, what gets toasted when they are revved too high?
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I was talking about injection pumps, what gets toasted when they are revved too high?
I have not experienced a blown 12mm pump in a TDI, but my friend said his pump seized. When he removed the timing belt he had a much harder time turning the pump; it just seized. We also found out later that a few hundred different 12mm pump heads have very low RPM rating. Only one of them had the highest max RPM of 2,250 if I remember correctly.
I'm not sure what part in particular gave away and how. I'll ask my friend again or perhaps wait for Giles to reply.
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Yeah I have been wondering what exactly gets screwed up when pump head is over revved, when I was looking through the bosch catalog the other day and I think the highest revving pump head I could find was 2150, which is obviously not high enough for what we need. I am guessing it is the distributor plunger that gets seized in the plunger barrel or maybe the control collar getting seized to plunger. I don't think it would cause issues further into the pump until it actually seizes, but I am anxcious to know.
Also if we swap in a 10mm head from a direct injection pump I am betting that the plunger return springs will be stiffer to compensate for the extra lift in the DI camplate, so in theory the complete 10mm head swap should keep the camplate from skipping on the rollers.
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Yeah I have been wondering what exactly gets screwed up when pump head is over revved, when I was looking through the bosch catalog the other day and I think the highest revving pump head I could find was 2150, which is obviously not high enough for what we need. I am guessing it is the distributor plunger that gets seized in the plunger barrel or maybe the control collar getting seized to plunger. I don't think it would cause issues further into the pump until it actually seizes, but I am anxcious to know.
Also if we swap in a 10mm head from a direct injection pump I am betting that the plunger return springs will be stiffer to compensate for the extra lift in the DI camplate, so in theory the complete 10mm head swap should keep the camplate from skipping on the rollers.
The TDI plunger foot is larger in diameter and uses a larger indexing pin so you would have to do some machining to fit it with the 1.6 cam plate.
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Yeah I know the tdi plungers are a bit differnet and do not fit the 1.6 camplate, I wa splanning on grabbing a head out of a ford ranger as they seem to have the right head assembly to bolt into our pumps. I pretty sure I saw a thread with some info on which heads fit in our pumps anyone know where that thread is at?
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Every VE head are interchangeable, so basically any VE head is bolt on on our pump, as mentionned, the plunger foot of 10,11 ans 12mm dosen't fit in the 1.6 camplate BUT, fits perfectly in a 1.9TD camplate, so you swap a 1.9TD camplate into your 1.6 pump and you'r in business with big head/rotor..
Cheers,
Marc/
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Really? I was pretty sure when I talked to Giles last week that he said I needed a different camplate to go with a 12mm head, and we were refering to malones pump which has a 1.9 camplate already, but I may have misheard what he said. Thanks for the info Marc.
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The camplate from the pump number NR 0 460 494 373, from an 1.9TD ( don't remember the year ) accept an 10,11 and 12mm plunger. But, for example, 4BT 12 mm head dosen't have the needed guide pin seat to accept the right guide pin, some people use 1.6 ones, but... You better put the right stuff into that pump..
Marc/
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Hey Marc thats what we were talking about thanks for refreshing my memory.
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No problem buddy :)
Marc/
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DutchTouch, that seems like a pretty big difference between Summer and Winter fuel. I don't know how Summer vs. Winter fuel compares up here. I started driving this 1.6TD about 3 to 4 weeks ago. Would be nice if I could run Summer fuel for a while. I have yet to find what my mpg is either without an odometer :)
Glad he likes the chip... :)
RabbitGTDguy, what were you trying to convey by posting that link? There's some different info in there.. :) If it's concerning head damage from revving too high, fspGTD overrevved during a mis-shift (downshift instead of upshift). I have the necessary pieces in my 1.9 head that should be able to tolerate high sustained revs so I'm not worried.
Absolutely, I want to get this thing on a chassis dyno after it's tuned.
sorry malone...i apparently misread the post... I assumed by 12mm he was talking about the "12mm" cylinder head itself... not the pump head. My bad....whoops. Guess I don't read into as well as you guys do. To me an over-revved cylinder head is an over revved cylinder head, whether a downshift or result of an upshift, the damage still comes down to valves, pistons and camshafts... I'm interested in knowing how you've accounted for this in the 1.9 head. Also...haven't read into your setup but you must be using a larger diameter mainshaft pump to support the rpm's it'll be turning at. But the topic was regarding an injection pump so the link was unwarranted.
Kudos...
as far as a 12mm head seizing up...injection pump this time so its specified... Karl Mullendore had a 11mm head swapped into his hybrid pump and it seized up on him. the plunger seized into the head assembly. Tried to right it after the fact with no luck and the pump ran pretty bad after that.
I'm using a modified cummins 4bt pump for the m-TDI setup, but thats another post, another forum. sorry for the confusion...
Joe
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I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of 11/12mm pump head failures are due to improper assembly or dirt or both. Most of the failed pumps have been assembled by people that may have been unfamiliar with the finer points of injection pump service. Cleanliness is vitally important, I've heard of some people actually doing the plunger/head swap with the pump installed in the car, not the best situation. Even the smallest dirt particle can fill up the clearance between the plunger and the head and cause seizure. Another potential source of trouble is unbalanced plunger return springs. Few people realize that most things that look like washers in a VE pump are in fact shims. The free length of the plunger springs must be matched with these shims so that the plunger is not displaced from its centered position by unbalanced spring force. Using a die grinder to hog out a 1.6 camplate so that it fits an 11 or 12mm plunger would also be a no-no...
If carefully assembled under clean conditions I see no reason that a 12mm head cannot survive at 5000rpm. Camplate "float" is another matter that will have to be dealt with at high rpm. Naturally, it will be worse with the greater weight of the larger plunger. Heavier return springs would be the only solution.
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This seems like a good opportunity to talk about the different 12mm pump heads.
(http://www.tdtuning.com/pictures/plungers.jpg)
I hope Marc doesn't mind. Here is a picture of a few different 12mm plungers. Notice how both of the 4BT plungers have a groove that runs the circumference of the plunger. I can guess what purpose this serves, but I'd like to hear some other comments on the subject. The one from Marc does not have this groove which is consistant with most of the other VW and peugeot plungers.
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Very nice pics of the plungers. Thats interesting to see that the cummins pumps plungers came in different varieties as well and it'll be interesting to hear what the thoughts on the "grooves" are.
In the meantime, i'm going to look through my bosch injection service manual (which I now have in PDF if anyone is interested...) as I've been reading and working on the governor for the cummins pump.
Joe
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No problem Mike for the pictures.. :)
As Bruce said, a clean working area is more than critical. I made many pumps w/o any plunger seized problem. When i play with pump guts, i don't take them in my bare hand, i always use gloves to avoid the acidity of the body to attack the metal. Anyway, everybody has their way to work..
About the groove at the end of the plunger, i read long time ago that this groove help the pressure to rise faster, BUT, the one ( 12mm head ) out of the vw rally tdi-r is groove less like mine. But, this is not the reason why i choose this model. The common 4bt head dosen't have the proper guide pin seat for lat 1.9TD and TDI pump, so instead of messing around with guide pins and spring, you can use the original ones.
Cheers,
Marc/
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To me an over-revved cylinder head is an over revved cylinder head, whether a downshift or result of an upshift, the damage still comes down to valves, pistons and camshafts...
I agree, but I forgot to mention that fspGTD claimed to have possibly hit or exceeded 9,000 RPM when he accidently mis-shifted and I don't intend on going anywhere near that. I have HD valve springs and that's all to support higher RPM.
I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of 11/12mm pump head failures are due to improper assembly or dirt or both.
If carefully assembled under clean conditions I see no reason that a 12mm head cannot survive at 5000rpm.
I can see that. My friend's 12mm pump failed the moment he touched 5,200 RPM though. I'm still not certain if a 12mm equipped pump (properly assembled) can survive up to 7,000 RPM. Contaminants or improper assembly is a different concern. There's a local VW tuner (Shawn van Neer, some of you guys may recognize him as he was the "King of VWs" in North America with one of the first Rabbit VR6 swaps, more than 10 magazine features, etc. He used to work at Momentum Motorsports and now runs Kinetic Motorsport) who did 13.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile in his 1.6L Rabbit a long ago with IIRC a T3/T04e50 (coincidentally, a turbo similar to the one I may upgrade to next.. this is despite some members here dismissing it as inefficient according to compressor maps) and he has destroyed a few pumps with 12mm.
This is one reason why I'd like Giles to work on my pump; he has the necessary tools to test and fine-tune a pump before I run it in my daily driver. The pump would otherwise require a number of time-consuming trail and errors (and maybe a couple broken pump housings) to get it to work right up to 6,500 - 7,000 RPM.
I would much rather get more HP than increase low RPM torque because I already have decent torque and there seems to be better HP potential during higher RPM, past 5,000. If 10mm or 11mm plus real injector nozzles upgrade will flow enough fuel (with decent atomisation) then I'll be happy.
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Mark - does your current pump have the 1.6's camplate with about 2.2mm displacement or has it got the 1.9's with approx 3.2mm? That's really neat how far you've gone with a 9mm plunger. :P
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Mark - does your current pump have the 1.6's camplate with about 2.2mm displacement or has it got the 1.9's with approx 3.2mm? That's really neat how far you've gone with a 9mm plunger. :P
It has the 1.9 camplate :)
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One thing that i might be worry about, is what kinda power we can extract from a diesel at high RPM.. Im not an expert in engine but i know that some limiting factors will affect the efficenty of the engine. Balancing the crank, con-rods, pistons, counter shaft and perhaps put the crank to a diete, but what about the ignition delay? Combustion time, mixing time?
I think that an 1.6 block w/ 1.9 head might be better than an 1.9. 1.6TD has a shorter stroke so an higher revving limit might be acheived.
As for the 12mm thing, i never revved mines or others over 4800 so all my pumps still hold. I think that bigger plunger might be less toleren for high rpm.. big things has more inertia.. An 11mm or even an 10mm might be enought for the power ballpark that we are in..
my 0,02
Marc/
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At high revs is the 'inlet' past the fuel cut off solenoid an issue? Can failure be partly due to vaccuum and vortex formation either side of piston at high speeds?
If a 'longer' thrust camplate pushes the piston a greater distance; is the piston travelling faster? (Ie) are the cam lobes operating over the same arc of a revolution? Standard was about 5 thou per flywheel tooth in operating range
These pistons look like they could be 1.5 x the weight of standard; anyone weighed them? Heavier weight thrown about more etc...
What happens to the sleeve which is suspended by springs in position due to the viscosity of the diesel between the sleeve and the piston at higher speeds?
Does it stick or wear?
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As far as engine internals go these engines are good for about 7k I figure, if you were to spend much time over 6k I would highly reccomend HD valve springs but thats about it these engines are nice little revers. I don't think there is much power to be made with these engines over 6k, that would be the point where making a reliable injection pump would be extremely hard and having enough fuel for that much boost and flow from that much rpm would be really difficult. I think the GTD injectors are seriously limiting fuel as well, I think malones engine is in much need of some big ass nozzles. I think a 12mm head is a bit over kill, I bet with a differnt camplate and a 10 or 11mm head you could get all the fuel most of us could ever use. But we will se what happens malone is due for some more mods :twisted:
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No problem Mike for the pictures.. :)
As Bruce said, a clean working area is more than critical. I made many pumps w/o any plunger seized problem. When i play with pump guts, i don't take them in my bare hand, i always use gloves to avoid the acidity of the body to attack the metal. Anyway, everybody has their way to work..
About the groove at the end of the plunger, i read long time ago that this groove help the pressure to rise faster, BUT, the one ( 12mm head ) out of the vw rally tdi-r is groove less like mine. But, this is not the reason why i choose this model. The common 4bt head dosen't have the proper guide pin seat for lat 1.9TD and TDI pump, so instead of messing around with guide pins and spring, you can use the original ones.
Cheers,
Marc/
One of these other 4bt pump heads actually has that style of guide pin seat. There are about a million different Cummins pump heads though. How many different sizes of plunger foot are there though?
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To me an over-revved cylinder head is an over revved cylinder head, whether a downshift or result of an upshift, the damage still comes down to valves, pistons and camshafts...
I agree, but I forgot to mention that fspGTD claimed to have possibly hit or exceeded 9,000 RPM when he accidently mis-shifted and I don't intend on going anywhere near that. I have HD valve springs and that's all to support higher RPM.
Good to hear... I'll be extending the RPM range slightly but only with the gov. modification and a careful foot; but agree with Mark in where either engine...
One thing that i might be worry about, is what kinda power we can extract from a diesel at high RPM.. Im not an expert in engine but i know that some limiting factors will affect the efficenty of the engine. Balancing the crank, con-rods, pistons, counter shaft and perhaps put the crank to a diete, but what about the ignition delay? Combustion time, mixing time?
Marc/
IDI TD or TDI will make the best and most reliable power and torque. ...afterall, if I wanted a 7k motor I think i'd go with a gasser anyways... Just love that diesel torque...
Sure, they are good to 7k...but thats "good to" limits. With the price and availability of some parts becoming a bit harder to find, I'd hate to toast a motor and have to go back to the board. It'll be interesting to see how Malone's motor performs, etc. once its up, ready and going "semi-complete" since we all always seem to have projects, modifcaitions, etc. I try to never call anything completion, always seems like something is in motion.
This could be a mind changer as far as whether want to keep their cars at a certain RPM limit or whether they too want to extend their range if the power provides to be reliable and useful. Can't wait to see some real dyno info on these projects. Def. should be interesting... I'm sure its going to be awesome!
Malone, also...turning those RPM's your planning with the fueling, etc. Did you go for aftermarket rod bolts and main studs instead of bolts or stick with the stockers? Sounds pretty bulletproof so far, just hoping nothing else would decide to let loose with stock hardware given that they are pretty weak links (rod bolts and main bolts for stress and crankshaft flex under high rpm load) on gasser VW's and diesels alike. Think i'm going to go with the stud kit and ARP rod bolt kit, just extra insurance. You just mentioned the valve springs, so I imagine you took preperation in this area too.
Joe
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If I recall correctly the 1.6L TD has the same stroke as a 1.8L 8v gasser's. Revving to 6,500 or 7,000 RPM doesn't seem like a big problem. Balancing the crank, con-rods, pistons, counter shaft, and perhaps knife-edging the crank sounds like preparing a 8k to 10k RPM motor. It'd be nice to do but I may not benefit from it much for the $.
RabbitGTDGuy, I could go for a 7k gasser if I wanted to, but I chose not to because:
1) I like diesels. No going back to gassers for me. The alternative fuels (bio, veg) are attractive too.
2) Better fuel mileage than gassers for the power/torque it makes, especially during normal driving.
3) It's unique and very interesting to see what we can get out of an IDI. 8v gas turbo? Boring.
4) My 1.6TD in its present setup makes plenty of torque during low RPM. Right off the line it feels far peppier than a MK3 2.0L ABA or MK2 2.0L 9A (16v). It also feels comparible to a stock ALH TDI @ 2,500 RPM (close to 155lb-ft) because my MK3 is approx. 400 pounds lighter than a MK4. It doesn't take much to move the car. Once 3,000 RPM hits, which doesn't take long, holy crap it pulls! There's a feeling of rush that I could not find in a moderately modified 1.9L TDI. Not to mention the roar the IDI makes when it pulls, and the sound of 35 PSI. The fact that this 1.6L IDI has good potential to pull longer and harder makes me hard :lol:
I see a few VE TDIs putting down at least 350lb-ft at the wheels just to make 170 to 190whp. To me that much torque between 2,500 and 2,800 RPM in a front-wheel drive vehicle isn't very usable. If I wanted a low RPM torque monster I wouldn't have sold my 70k km rebuilt ALH TDI longblock a couple months ago in favour for getting this 1.6L IDI built. However, the TDIs do have great fuel mileage for the torque they make and that's one thing I wished I had.
In overall cost I'm getting the most bang for the buck from this IDI, at least in my perspective. My entire MK3 1.6 IDI vehicle in its present configuration costs not much more than half of a stock A4 TDI vehicle. We are already learning a lot from this project with enthusiasm too. If my IDI engine ever shatters into pieces, starting over won't be too costly compared to owning a TDI vehicle and rebuilding its engine. I also may receive a spare AAZ 1.9TD head soon and naked 1.6 TD blocks are like $100 each.
IDI parts don't seem that hard to find.
Oh yes, I already have Raceware rod bolts *edit: correction: main studs are still OEM.
(http://x12.putfile.com/11/32516085624.jpg) (http://www.putfile.com)
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Actually there are only the rod bolts down in the bottom end, and factory brand new main bolts. Studs would definately be a good idea.
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thats great to hear malone. Glad you decided with the diesel roots ( I can't do gassers anymore either...my last, a 8v Lysholm Stg 4 corrado) bored me too after the motor was done, not to mention...tried to kill me :) ) I chose my diesels as more important for all the same reasons. I've built several 1.8 turbos, for friends though... never was much into the feeling because I've always had a diesel since I was able to drive.
You must be lucky in your IDI TD parts around you then because around here they are scarce, and getting harder and harder to find parts for. I have at least 2 emails or IM's on either the vortex or through thesamba regarding information about whether my 30k rebuilt TD IDI that I had is still for sale. Which its probably by now i hope found its way into the vanagon the buyer bought it for. I hope, with my modifications and rebuild that it serves him many useful miles and an extra boost over stock hp when he goes to turn up the boost. It treated me very well too.
Try to look in the yards around here and you don't have much luck finding TD VW's anymore. However, the prices of the TDI's are starting to come down. Every now and then I see a P-car, a renault and an IDI NA diesel...but most the motors, pumps etc. are all gone now.
Can't say as to whether I agree with your philo on TDI's in the lighter, more agile vw's. With the right suspension and drivetrain setup, and smart driving I believe supplemental power and a good foot will put all that either engine has to offer to the ground in a very good manner. To each his own though. My plan is to build the motor, rock solid, powerful and reliable. Key factory elements mixed with the right about of performance with an old school twist.
As for this project specifically, and IDI's. Man, we have learned alot of valuable information. Though sometimes the poll of knowledge seems a little "closed" when it comes to certain things, ideas, etc. most of us here are always open to share our ideas, thoughts and experiements. Just look at how much Jake has contributed and continues too. I remember when there was just a few of us...or rather, a few of us that we knew of on the internet here and it just grew from there.
I just bought this 79 rabbit just to enjoy "part of" the thrill and simplicity of the motor again and plan to keep it relatively stock...less power but 48mpg, I won't complain there. Your right, there was no similar sound to the IDI TD at high boost. I remember sitting there listing to mine idle and just hearing the turbo purr through the exhaust...very fun. The drive...amazing.
Its also great to see you took all the precautions, etc. to prep for this...though main studs might be a good idea. Though, might be beyond that since it would involve a teardown and line boring of the block to make sure that it is properly aligned when the studs are torqued but maybe things will be fine. There are plenty of TDI's (which run the same mains a rods...wow, 20 years...) running fine with factory bolts (minus the head bolts)
What'll be more interesting is how it holds the power to 7k, what kind of power it makes and how reliable that power/motor combination is. Sounds bulletproof to me and I'm sure it'll prove it on paper! As always...have fun!
Joe
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You must be lucky in your IDI TD parts around you then because around here they are scarce, and getting harder and harder to find parts for.
i'll attest to that... they are much easier to find up here.
a friend just traded me a complete 1.6TD motor, turbo, manifolds and all (needs rings though) plus a good block, probably-junk-head, and a box full of pistons and other spare parts for a used '84 GTI interior i didn't have any use for anymore. he did this because another guy sold him a good running complete 1.6TD for $100 flat.
if you are into TD motors, it might be worth sourcing a few from up here and pick them all up in one shot. roadtrip!
"my last, a 8v Lysholm Stg 4 corrado bored me"
:lol: i can't imagine that. would be pulling over 200whp... i know the corrados are a lot more weight to haul around than say a mkI, but those G60-based setups make a lot of torque. you'd have had trouble getting rubber at all in 1st or 2nd... maybe even 3rd with stock gearbox. boring??? man i want to drive what you are driving now then!!!
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You are def. lucky up your way then. Its so hard around here anymore to even find NA stuff or complete motors for that matter. For instance...an NA diesel I saw up on the Vortex was going for 600 used, not rebuilt! It was bought. The future of diesel, alternative fuels for them to run, etc. is exactly (as malone mentioned) why I chose to dump the gasser faith and keep my cars all diesel. Though, the gf does have a 1.8T 02 Jetta that we bought, but I myself only own one gasser, and thats the 72 Westy w/ 2.0 and Dells which is nice for the summer time and camping, mtb'in, etc.
As for the corrado. Maybe I should have restated why I was "bored". For the same reason that malone mentioned his concentration on diesels, i lost my interest in the gassers in the same way. No doubt, the fact that the corrado was crazy fast (even for its rather heavy nature IMO) and alot of fun to drive it just "bored" me when it came to the orginality and "untried" factor. In saying that...with the GTD and the IDI TD I had built for it, there were many things that weren't often tried before, nor had the IDI TD's really been played with all that much. I remember the old emails with Jake about his before Mark and I ever even started the last forum...and then slowly over the past few years, things have really taken off it seems...or at least those that we all can now see.
There wasn't anything unique about the stg 4 lysholm setup on the corrado. It had been done, all mods were for the most part bolt on, etc. whereas with the GTD i experiemented with and ran the plenum style intake and even had my own propane setup (boost sensitive) up and running on the car. It got alot more attention than I thought it ever would.
And the other factor with the corrado. Well, everytime something nice was done to it...something else would happen. I should've known in the first place what I was getting into. The car came out of Philly and looked like it had been struck by the vinyl Gods. I converted it to manual transmission initially and from there it was a saga. The PO had carelessly rigged a anti theft system/alarm in the car which didn't agree with the corrados already (from the factory) somewhat tricky and finicky wiring setup. Then...it blew a hole through number 4 and I rebuilt the motor and really carried, or began to carry out what I wanted to do. That was the stg 4 additions, the lysholm, borla exhaust, SNS chip, FK coilovers, etc. etc...even converted the interior over to all leather from an SLC and it just ended up being the same as what someone else had done and didn't really find its way into my heart. Not to mention the curious wiring, the alternator dying on my going down the I90, leaks, etc. that just became a pain to chase. So...maybe its a bit clearer now. The fun in the diesels, as has been mentioned is their prospects for the future and the amount of tuning that anybody actually does to them. The nice thing to see is all the "steps" beyond the normal and bolt-ons that we're so used to are taking on in these forums, especially IDI given the fact that there really aren't ANY IDI TD bolt on mods apart from exhausts for these "old school" motors. Its really, alot of fun.
Maybe next time I'm up that way I will have to look into finding a TD IDI for a good price. I'd love to build one to put into the 79 someday... :) You guys really are lucky though having an abundance...
Happy Thanksgiving by the way!
Joe
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Actually now there are 2 bolt on performance mods for the IDI's, downpipes and custom cams! Ther eis more stuff on the way, cheap electronic boost controllers, bov block off plates etc. all in good time. I am very open to suggestions so if anyone has some suggestions for performance parts they would like let me know!
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Thanks for the interesting posts, Joe. I understand the (lack of) IDI parts availability and it is true that the TDI prices are starting to go down. Semi-contrary to what I said earlier, I would have probably kept my TDI if I had room for an extra vehicle. The neat thing is that for over 300 wheel torque the ALH longblock does not need to be built. Just a few bolt-on mods, i.e. chip, injector nozzles, pump head, larger VNT turbo, etc. will yield 300 wtq very easily (see Smog's 365wtq example). And it still gets killer fuel mileage, perhaps retaining 40+mpg in a lightweight vehicle during normal driving with stock engine compression & internals.
For now we'll concentrate on finishing this 1.6 IDI eventually and perhaps a 1.9 TDI would be an ideal second car of mine. I won't mind the V8 style torque during low RPM and the long gears. 1.6 IDI vs. 1.9 TDI - two totally different animals!
I still have the nearly rust-free 1986 MK2 diesel Coupe that my TDI was intended for. I need to find a place to store the coupe though, starting very soon... if I'm forced to sell it then an alternative car I'd consider in the near future is a Mercedes Smart CDI (0.8L 3cyl), which can be chipped. The Smart weighs 760kg or 1741lbs, which is considerably less than even a partially stripped MK1 Rabbit :twisted: it makes about 56HP and 100lb-ft with chip only which is quite peppy especially with a six speed transmission. RWD too. Not to forget a potential turbo and/or injector upgrade :!: My significant other could use the Smart (with multiple chip programs, one being soft for street driving) while I'll use the 1.6 IDI on a daily basis (100km/60mi per day) unless it goes off the road for mod changes.
Happy Thanksgiving Joe! Maybe I should drive down to the US for a feast.. :)
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Perhaps I should mention this because some people are looking forward to see my progress with high RPM and T3/T4 turbo upgrade. I've decided not to continue modding this car from now on because I have new financial priorities, including saving up for a new home (may move in the Spring) and I'm also saving for better equipment for my business. I was seriously itching for 200whp with this 1.6L, which I believe is easily do-able, but I need to be patient for now. It will pay off well in the end. I also would like compound turbo charging instead of a single large turbo. While we're doing that I could/should have the following done:
* Transmission upgrade. A good 02J with Peloquin LSD is approx $2,000 CAD (realistically).
* Main studs and a few other engine internal bits.
* Valves and pistons ceramic coated when 935racer gets a ceramic coater sometime this Winter!
* Two ball bearing turbos!
* Custom rods.. the stock rods may bend if we tune the compound turbo setup to its maximum potential.
* Major fuel pump upgrades.
* Engine mounts.
* Brakes.
... just to list a few. I decided that we should do it all at once for good results, so this IDI's progress will be put on hold for now. Gonna stick with the GT20 as I'm happy with the current power it makes. After all the engine only has 2,500km on it, and going from stock TD power to approx. 150whp is a pretty big jump already. Eventually I will get bored of 150whp and want to try 200whp :p when the time comes..
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You can buy a complete 02A (CTN) transmission kit for 900$ CAD.
If I don't buy the kit, it will be for sale.
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Erik might hit 200whp before you Mark! Today we started mapping out his twin setup and it looks like I have a 1.9 head lined up for him as well. So it looks like when you want to come back for some more mods we are gonna have to shoot for 250whp. Than Felix will want to try for more power, than Erik will be pist and come back for something even more ridiculous etc etc I cant wait!
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I like the twin turbo setup idea. I've had it for a while.....enough to think about badging of the two cars.....
1.6TT
1.9TT
That's on the 2 year plan right now.
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You can buy a complete 02A (CTN) transmission kit for 900$ CAD.
If I don't buy the kit, it will be for sale.
Not bad.. if I look hard enough I may find one for less, 02J even. I have time now so it's doable. There's also the possibility of swapping O2J gear sets into a O2A casing, and retaining the MK2/MK3 shifter & cable clutch. Something to research on.
Thanks for the heads up though!
Erik might hit 200whp before you Mark! Today we started mapping out his twin setup and it looks like I have a 1.9 head lined up for him as well. So it looks like when you want to come back for some more mods we are gonna have to shoot for 250whp. Than Felix will want to try for more power, than Erik will be pist and come back for something even more ridiculous etc etc I cant wait!
Erik might hit that before me? Damn. Looks like we'll have some competition :twisted: :P
I like the twin turbo setup idea. I've had it for a while.....enough to think about badging of the two cars.....
1.6TT
1.9TT
That's on the 2 year plan right now.
I haven't even thought of the TT badging, pretty neat. It's nice seeing fellow TDs taking an interest in compound turbocharging. andy2 you should post a picture of yours!
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[/quote]Not bad.. if I look hard enough I may find one for less, 02J even. I have time now so it's doable. There's also the possibility of swapping O2J gear sets into a O2A casing, and retaining the MK2/MK3 shifter & cable clutch. Something to research on[/quote]
Malone -
I have a source that has several 02J tranny's here in Ontario.
I believe he wants around $700.00 for them.
BJ
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Malone, feel free to come down any time you like :) Lots of diesel in my basement...well, only the TDI motor and the GTD but the orginal 79 1.5 bunny is outside as well.
I hope you find a place for that MK2 Jetta coupe...they are very hard to find around here and I thought about that for the base of the TDI instead of the rabbit (i have a 91 i'm parting right now, 4dr though). That'd make for an awesome canidate for the TDI swap...say... ALH...ok...but what about a PD 130 or 150!!!! Even more fun!
I know what you mean though when it comes to $$$ and doing the motors, upgrading, etc. Currently I kinda have to sell stuff I have, barter and trade to get this motor where I want it. I was able to source my pistons though (not using 1z's); got mikeyworks' pistons he had from the ALH block in his add and then sourced three more good ones in trade for my 4 good 1z's. Seems fair to me. Then...its hoping that parts, etc. will fund the remaining things I still need to get. I'll be doing ARP's in the bottom and racewares up top...unless I find that raceware is able to supply ARP rod bolts and mains for the motor...that'd be nice and the pistons will be sent out to swaintech here next week for coatings along with the mains and rod bearings. Also, props to Bildon Motorsports as they have IMO the best prices around for the racewares and ARP fasteners.
Man...200whp with sequentials...that'd be sweet :) from the IDI!!! I hope you pursue that path in the future. That Mercedes sounds interesting though too!
Anyways...off to finish T-day festivities! This will prove to be an interesting project...
For the above post...where I mentioned the corrado. Here is a pic i found...old...right after I got it. Hadn't done much to it at this point...but the GTD just looks so much more fun!!!
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p1132346817b7e973ee859bfc6591df30/fb1de708.jpg)
Maybe in the future i'll do a PD150 rado like the one i've seen around here somewhere on the net!
Happy holiday!
Joe
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From this morning on my way to work:
(http://www.dieselinside.com/1.6td/dent1.jpg)
(http://www.dieselinside.com/1.6td/dent2.jpg)
First accident ever.. never even a winter fender bender before. We were in a narrow (& wet) tunnel so I was unable to evade otherwise I'd hit the wall, or head-on with incoming traffic. I didn't feel too bad about my car, the other people were OK. I was informed that my insurance rates won't go up because this is my first accident, so I'm relieved.
I've always bought collision for insurance since I first got my drivers license... however 2 weeks into this 3-month insurance (plates) I got into an accident without collision coverage. Talk about luck :? Regardless, I don't want to pay a $300-500 deductible and have the insurance / shop take 3-4 weeks repairing my car. Gonna take care of it myself.
The original radiator is cracked and leaks, so I'm replacing it with a VR6 version. I was pleased to see that there's a second radiator attached to the VR6 radiator (I didn't know until I took a large plastic cover off). It is large and I will use it for the air/water intercooler.
(http://www.dieselinside.com/1.6td/radiators.jpg)
Joe, your TDI project sounds interesting :) I can tell that Corrado is neglected by the Rabbit's fresh tire marks in the grass :lol:
3beejay3, thanks for the heads up. When I'm ready to buy I'll let you know. Do they have 02M transmissions as well? If so what's the ballpark on them?
Sorry for the short replies, got some errands.
Cheers,
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Couldn't help but get confused. What are you trying to achieve with the tranny? Putting an 02J gearset into your current tranny? Why not just get the 02J tranny and put it in? Seems easiest to me.....
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Couldn't help but get confused. What are you trying to achieve with the tranny? Putting an 02J gearset into your current tranny? Why not just get the 02J tranny and put it in? Seems easiest to me.....
With a full O2J tranny I may have to install the O2J shifter (cutting & welding?) and convert to hydraulic clutch.
Putting 02J gearsets in a O2A case will allow me to keep my shifter and it's possible to keep the cable clutch as well. The tranny will need to be opened up for LSD install anyways.
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Couldn't help but get confused. What are you trying to achieve with the tranny? Putting an 02J gearset into your current tranny? Why not just get the 02J tranny and put it in? Seems easiest to me.....
Well, it would be if he could get a TDI 02J or at least the TDI axle flanges. The 02A shift tower actually fits the 02J box and offers protection against overthrowing the gears. In 2001, the 1.8t 02J underwent some 2nd gear syncro revisions. I'm not entirely sure if the TDI trans was also revised. He would need the pedal cluster from a 4cyl 02A car, as well as the clutch master and slave. He would also need an O2A shifter (MK3 is preferred in a MK2 as it is taller) if he wants to use the 02A tower. I haven't heard of anyone adapting the 02J shifter as of yet. A G60 flywheel with a VR6 clutch would offer the best holding power as it is larger than the MK3 TDI clutch and any of the MK4 clutches at 228mm. Finding a TDI starter might also be fun 8)
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Well, I had a big ol blab prepared, but I guess I should ask which car you're talking about? I've been working under the assumption that you were wanting to get 02J gears into your current tranny.
If you were going to mate an 02J to the IDI engine, it would bolt right up. The flanges are 100 mm. The Diesel MKII's came with 90mm as you've probably already noticed. However, the GT, GTI, GLI, GLX, and most gassers after 85 or so had 100mm CV's, so get some driveaxles from a gasser and voila.
Thanks to MrDave for the following (again.....Royalty cheque is in the mail :D). The 02J is the cousin of the 02C (Rallye, anyone?), which is an offshoot of the 02A. The bracket from the the 02C should allow you to mount the 02J to the stock 02A mount location, avoiding the crazy MKIV mount on the frame rail). I've ordered this for my project and can give you the definitive answer in a couple weeks.
Oh yeah, and some of the Rallye's came with cable shift and......you guessed it, hydraulic clutches. I'm currently doing some homework to see if the hydraulic clutch and pedal cluster will work with the 02J.
Lastly, on the cable shift, no welding is/should be required. Look at the FutrellAutowerka VR6 swap for ideas on mounting it. You can also fab up some straps to hold it into place if you want.http://futrellautowerks.com/projects/89clvr62.htm
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Couldn't help but get confused. What are you trying to achieve with the tranny? Putting an 02J gearset into your current tranny? Why not just get the 02J tranny and put it in? Seems easiest to me.....
With a full O2J tranny I may have to install the O2J shifter (cutting & welding?) and convert to hydraulic clutch.
Putting 02J gearsets in a O2A case will allow me to keep my shifter and it's possible to keep the cable clutch as well. The tranny will need to be opened up for LSD install anyways.
I was under the assumption you had an 020 trans? How do you plan to retain your stock linkage shifter?
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Yes he has an o2o trans, I can't see any advantage of using the 02a box with o2j internals. Mark when we find a cheap o2j I'll throw in a nice lsd and make some custom mounts for the tranny and the shifter box etc, shouldn't be too hard. Seeing how I gotta rip the whole tranny apart I can powdercoat the transmission case! That would be sick.
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Perhaps im still asleep, but both, O2A and O2J is the same tranny, with few minor difference on the casing. Both has cable shift and hydro clutch.
I have a O2A from a 98 TDI and when i removed the one on my Golf to put the Peloquin, i compared the outside and they are very closed.. They share the almost the same gear set.. R&P from the 02A is 3.15 where the 02J is 3.38..
Marc/
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Perhaps im still asleep, but both, O2A and O2J is the same tranny, with few minor difference on the casing. Both has cable shift and hydro clutch.
I have a O2A from a 98 TDI and when i removed the one on my Golf to put the Peloquin, i compared the outside and they are very closed.. They share the almost the same gear set.. R&P from the 02A is 3.15 where the 02J is 3.38..
Marc/
This is true. The 02A and 02J are very similar and some parts are interchangeable.
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Yep. The only difference that should be apparent is that the 02A has a different mount above the driver's axle, but that should mount directly to the mount for the 02C. As mentioned before, I've got the part coming in and will have the info for you soon.
dC
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I was under the assumption you had an 020 trans? How do you plan to retain your stock linkage shifter?
Yes, 020 and I was wrong about retaining the stock linkage shifter. This is what I was thinking:
1) MKIII 02A shifter (bolts right in).
2) 02A tranny (bolts right in).
3) 02J gearsets (stronger).
4) Peloquin LSD install while the gearsets are out/exposed.
However, having done a little more reading recently I think I should stick with standard 02A (gearsets) with LSD, it should hold up just fine in my application. No need to bother with 02J parts. Costs less this way too. The 02A may be found from the following vehicles: Passat 16V, Corrado G60, all MK3 VR6s, Corrado VR6, Passat VR6, and some MK3 TDIs. There are a number of 300-plus whp VR6Ts with 02As.
I haven't done full research on the entire tranny swap yet so there may be some flaws to my thinking. If I'm going for a full 02A then I won't have trouble finding one for cheap. The Peloquin LSD may be purchased from http://www.thescirocco.com.
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Except the vr6 trannys don't bolt up cause they have a different bellhousing.
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Thanks for the reminder, will try to find 4cyl 02As.
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I bought my Peloquin at thescirocco, Peter is a great guy to deal with..
Marc/
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OK, can someone tell me why Peloquins or Quaiffe's are so desired? I'm assuming that they are some sort of limited slip diff that can put more traction to the road, but Peloquin's site doesn't have much info on what his stuff actually does.
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OK, can someone tell me why Peloquins or Quaiffe's are so desired? I'm assuming that they are some sort of limited slip diff that can put more traction to the road, but Peloquin's site doesn't have much info on what his stuff actually does.
Read about the Quaife's benefits here:
http://www.autotech.com/prod_drive_diffs.htm#quaife
The Peloquin is another brand of torque biasing differential, and it delivers all the benefits of the Quaife.
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Perfect. Now I have to add that to the 1.5 year plan....
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you can also get a clutch cable adapter for the 02a. a friend has one in his vr6turbo, it is a nice piece. im going to use one for my o2a swap. cost aboud 120 bux usa. its a european part so maybe u canadians could get it easier. worth the money instead of swapping over to a hydro clutch. and i like the feel of the cable.
-jared
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for far less than 100 bucks you can get the "adaptor" you speak of to elminate the need to convert over to hydro clutch.... worldimpex.com ...i have the pn somewhere...
Its simply the clutch cable actuator from a eurovan ...cost was around 40 bucks I believe through them. From there...its getting the cable to fit...several ideas/ways to do this have been discussed on the VWVortex...I'll do some digging...i looked into this when I started the mTDI for the Rabbit...
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40-60 bucks for the 02A clutch cable adapter is not bad! Good info, thanks
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A little update for those who are curious:
* The prechamber cups are being ceramic coated today.
* The piston protrusion was measured at .79mm, right in spec for a 1-hole headgasket. I was running a 3-hole headgasket.
* The cylinder walls look great from extra care, unlike my other two TDs :)
* The drained motor oil looks clean.
* 935racer's head deck mod appears to work well; there's a nice even burn over the pistons.
I mentioned a while ago that I had blue/white smoke below 2,000 RPM even after we tried pump timings from 0.90 to 1.10. If I leave my glow plugs on (manual switch) the smoke was reduced significantly. Hopefully the precup and headgasket change will reduce the low RPM smoke for the time being.
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* The piston protrusion was measured at .79mm, right in spec for a 1-hole headgasket. I was running a 3-hole headgasket.
Any idea how much that lowered your compression?
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* The piston protrusion was measured at .79mm, right in spec for a 1-hole headgasket. I was running a 3-hole headgasket.
Any idea how much that lowered your compression?
Nope, but I imagine the difference won't be much. 935racer may have before/after compression #s as he has the compression tester tool.
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Unfortunately I didn't do a compression test before I pulled the head off, so we don't have any accurate measurements.
On a side note I already had some pre cups coated yesterday and when I installed them they did not sit flush in the head, I than pulled them out and measured them compared to the old ones and found out that the old one were 10 thou smaller than the new ones for measurement D and C as shown in the "IDI there is a future" post. This means at some point the head had been decked 10 thou. So now I have coated the old pre cups and will be reinstalling them today with the thinner headgasket in hopes of eliminating the at idle smoke.
*If you are installing pre cups measure the old ones and make sure they are at stock spec, if they aren't your head has been decked and you need to take the appropriate material off the pre cup.
Its the first time I have ever had this happen but thought I would mention it to help others avoid the inconvience.
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Here's the diagram to coincide with 935racer's post above:
(http://www.dieselinside.com/misc/prechamber_dimensions.gif)
1.9TD Prechamber Cup:
A: 1.0975" (27.8765mm)
B: 1.2615" (32.0421mm)
C: 0.676" (17.1704mm)
D: 0.158" (4.0132mm)
Measurement D for the original precups pulled from my 1.9TD head was in fact 0.151". So the new ceramic coated precups with at least .158" did not sit flush in the apparently decked head. Thus, my original precups are being coated instead.
The new precups could be modified to fit in my 1.9TD head but while my original precups are already out I prefer to have these coated. We know they will sit perfectly flush again.
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I was running a 3 notch on my AAZ with piston potrusion between .022-.026 thou thats the height recomended for the 1 notch gasket (.026-.033).I tested one cylinder on my rebuit engine before starting it (had not run yet) and I got 440 psi after about 4-5 cranks. I think each thickness equals about 20-30 psi,So if I had the 1 notch on there I would have seen somthing like 480-500 psi,Just a guess However I could be out to lunch :roll:.If I would have tested the compression after the engine was broke in the result (440psi) may have been higher?
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BTW I too just got some new AAZ precups from altrom and thay sat up .025 thou from the deck.We had to install the precups and machine them down flush.It was a little tricky to machine as both aliminum and steel were being cut at the same time :lol:.
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as per the suggestion above i checked out world impex and found the clutch actuator for pretty cheap. its not the complete kit but thats a sweet deal.
http://www.worldimpex.com/item_detail.html?sku=126798
im sure making the bracket and retrofitting your existing cable would be pretty easy. i have been waiting to buy one cause i cant justify 120 bux, i can justify 40 bux though.
nice beta rabbittdguy
-jared
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I was running a 3 notch on my AAZ
No wonder why your headgasket blew, these 1.5L gaskets are flimsy :lol: j/k.
It's interesting to know that you have to deal with the precup height/thickness too. Thanks for sharing your experience!
http://www.worldimpex.com/item_detail.html?sku=126798
I bookmarked the link for future reference, thank you!
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Update: The ceramic coated prechamber cups and 1-hole headgasket are installed. The result? More white smoke at idle, if not the same. Quite the opposite of what I was expecting. If turning on glow plugs reduces the white smoke at idle, it makes me wonder if the ceramic coated prechamber cups are effective at all. Maybe only during higher EGT operation. Keep in mind that my entire prechamber isn't coated, just the precups. The area marked blue in the picture below is the only part that hasn't been coated:
(http://www.vwdiesel.net/picserv/redrotors/pre1a.jpg)
Picture by RedRotors
... so for those of you who decide to coat the prechamber it may still be worth it... or maybe not.
935racer has a working & unmodified NA 1.6 injection pump that he will swap in today. Something might be up with my current pump not injecting to spec. The engine block & head seems healthy (damage & leak free) and we've tried brand new OEM injectors. Hopefully the pump swap solves the problem. More updates coming...
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I'll agree with what you have said, something to consider next time.
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What are the compression and leakdown numbers now?
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^ im so going there in the spring!!
Im also hoping there will be a summer diesel package? Or in other words, same stuff different oil (?) :)
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Yes we will make some sort of diesel sumer package. As for the compression #'s I'll maybe get a compression test done this week, or whenever mark can bring the car back out here. Hopefully there will be no need for leakdown #'s you only do that when the compression is really low on a cylinder...
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Here's an update on the white smoke issue @ zero/low engine load, which has continued for almost two months now. For those who haven't read about it before: After the engine is fully warmed up it'd still constantly blow white/blue smoke at idle or low RPM part throttle. The smoke pours out both sides of my car, I even got a serious comment from another guy (car) in his 30's in Vancouver saying that my car's "on fire!!!" :roll:
We tried the following with no success:
1) New injectors.
2) Pump timing from 0.85 to 1.15.
3) Fuel screw low/idle screw high and fuel screw high/idle screw low.
4) Swapped pumps.
5) Pulled head. The block & head looked to be in mint condition, pre-chamber cups were ceramic coated.
Here are some of my observations:
1) Driving above 2,000 RPM there's zero smoke. Zip, nada, none. Runs and sounds perfectly smooth.
2) Glow plugs switched on manually at idle = less white/blue smoke.
3) Engine shudders/misfires below 2,000 RPM at part throttle. However, if I go WOT off-idle, there's no shudder and white/blue smoke. I believe this is due to extra fuel = more heat.
4) Stopping immediately after driving, the smoke is not visible until about 5-10 seconds later until the EGT drops. Lowest EGT at idle is 300 degrees F, pre-turbo. 350-400 degrees is more common. However, maybe the reason I don't see the smoke immediately after stopping is because it takes a few secs for the smoke to rise up where it can be seen from the driver's seat.
Most of the above suggest that it may be lack of HEAT, causing the white/blue smoke... just like many healthy diesels blowing a little blue/white smoke when cold starting. I spoke with Giles two nights ago and he suggested that my TD may be consuming far too much air and I'm lacking heat. I'm also boosting approx. 1.5 PSI at idle. Of course! That makes sense. The 1.9TD head intake ports were heavily ported and the deck was modded for extra flow as well. This is such a simple problem and we went through all the trouble of doing other diagnosis for nothing! :)
I am still consuming oil, but there are a couple leaks at the oil pan, which will be fixed eventually.
Temporary solution (diagnosis): Install 1.6TD intake manifold to restrict airflow, but the head flow mods are still there. Another way is to remove intercooler piping to avoid boost at idle, and have the inlet of the PD130 intake inlet blocked at least 75% to restrict airflow into the engine.
Permanent solution: Bigger turbo to avoid boost at idle :P Reinstall original EGR valve to the PD130 intake and have the EGR plate, or shall I call it "throttle plate", be in closed position @ below WOT to restrict airflow into the engine. It should result in a richer air/fuel mixture & more heat.
A blow-off valve would be installed between the turbo compressor and throttle plate to purge excess boost in case throttle is closed at high boost. Who would have expected that a BOV will finally serve a purpose in a little IDI :)
Now... we tried the temporary solution last night. We took the intercooler piping off and I drove around a little more to ensure that the coolant temp is optimal (approx. 90 degreees C or 190 degrees F). Stopped the car, covered the PD130 intake inlet with a hand (about 75% blocked). Revved the engine in neutral... still lots of smoke :( no difference. It was dark but the smoke may have been more grey-ish than white.
DVST8R mentioned that some Cummins use an intake heater as opposed to glow plugs for cold starts. We can experiment by using a heat gun directly into the intake inlet of my IDI. If it works well, then I'll have to make some form of intake heater, with a customized "race pipe". This may be more simple and effective than a mechanically actuated throttle plate + BOV. BTW an electrically actuated throttle plate is a possibility, it can be wired to the OEM WOT switch on the fuel pump so the plate opens completely at WOT.
Another possible problem to consider is that the geometry between the 1.9 head and 1.6 block may be a bit off. Or it could be the deck modification. While the enhanced airflow above 2,000 RPM is phenomenal, fuel/air combustion quality may have been sacrificed at low load. Perhaps the swirl characteristic in the intake ports were reduced a bit too much? Or do these exist in TDIs only? There is an interesting direct injection diesel that has two intake ports routed into one valve. At low RPM only one intake port with maximum swirl capability is open.. when upper RPM is reached, the other port (more straightforward=more flow) is opened. It's like the VNT of head intakes.
Still.. if I go WOT below 2,000 RPM it shudders and smokes less (compared to part throttle) so adding more heat may be sufficient.
Comments?
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Your excessive idling EGTs and smoking indicate inefficient combustion is happening at idle. I would expect to see the EGTs of a good running VW Diesel drop below 200 deg F at idle if you wait long enough (or certain get to around that point.) The 1.9 head is definitely a possiblity... if it dropped the compression ratio too much it wouldn't be making enough heat to fully combust the mixture at idle RPMs. Have you run any calcs of done any testing to see what compression ratio you have? Are the ring seated in? Leak down (to test ring seal only) or compression (might give you a clue to the CR) numbers would be useful to know.
Also, are you using a low-temp thermostat? If so, you might consider running the coolant hotter, closer to the OEM thermostat level. You also want your oil to get up to boiling temps often to keep it free of moisture build-up anyway. Might help a little... just a thought. Are your oil temps rising as well? You probably don't want to be using an external oil cooler unless it's thermostatically controlled on this motor.
That is also really interesting that you noticed after dropping the RPMs, the smoke doesn't appear for a little bit. It sounds like it's cooling off due to inadequate compression of the 1.9 head. You could always fall back to bumping up your idle RPMs as a temporary or even a permanent solution. IMO it would be much easier on the motor mounts and probably idling fuel consumption even to raise the RPMs to get rid of missing than idling at "proper" idle RPMs with missing and sporadic, poor combustion occurring.
If you feel so inclined... now would also be a good time to experiment with ceramic coatings on any or all of the aluminum surfaces of the combustion chamber and piston tops. I know you've had the head off and on a few times though and that can get hard to keep doing, but put it on your list for "next time".
Finally, I don't buy the consuming too much air at idle being the culprit idea. Diesels are harder to start at high altitudes where the air is thinner, not easier. I believe the thinner air makes their compression pressures and temperatures lower. You'd think the reverse might be true if there were extra air.
The VNT 1.6 Rabbit had no problem idling with vanes completely closed which caused a little bit of boost pressure at idle. 1.4 psi is only 9% more absolute pressure than atmospheric. Those mods you did to open up the breathing at higher RPM I doubt would help volumetric efficiency at anything but very high RPMs.
Another thought - if your glow plugs being turned on during idling adequately solved the situation, (it would be easy enough to temporarily wire them to 12V while the engine is idling to test this...) you might be able to rig up an RPM-dependent switch to turn them on whenever the RPMs dropped below a certain amount. That would be a unique solution and IMO, pretty cool and easy to do if it actually worked. I think the new Bosch duraterm glowplugs can be run for long periods without overheating like the early glow plugs do, so they would be a good choice for this kind of use.
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Thanks for the post Jake :)
Higher RPM in neutral results in a lot more smoke so raising idle won't help.
I've wanted a compression & leak-down test for a while lately, but 935racer has the testers and we haven't had too much time in the shop. 935racer, how about we do it this Saturday?
My engine idles very smoothly, it starts misfiring if you rev it in neutral above 1,100 RPM or as soon as the vehicle accelerates off idle, especially at part-throttle. Despite the smooth idle I guess there still may be improper combustion based on the 300-400 EGT.
Perhaps I should note that I do not have a cold-start pull. I have a 650amp battery and a small gasser starter (transmission is from a 1.8L 8v) but the engine fires to life after 1 or 2 cranks in -4 degree C (24 degree F) weather after sitting overnight. Starts great, but immediately after startup if I hold WOT the engine cannot rev on its own, until 10-15 secs later. Perhaps that's another indicator of low compression?
Anyway I just ordered an OEM cold-start pull that fits in my MK3 dashboard. $28.78. Of course it won't be the ultimate solution, but I may just need a little advanced timing.
When 935racer pulled my 1.9 head, he also replaced the thermostat at my request. I don't recall what temp it is, my last thermostat was 87 degrees C (188 F). I'll ask him what the temp rating is, but the temp according to my water temp gauge is 185 degrees usually.
My oil temp gauge is the only gauge that's not functional. I've visted two auto parts shops for fittings for both oil pressure and oil temp sensors on the 1.9TD head, but they didn't have the proper fittings :evil:. I'm going to visit another this Saturday.
If you feel so inclined... now would be a good time to experiment with ceramic coatings on any or all of the aluminum surfaces of the combustion chamber and piston tops.
If that's the case I'll likely wait until I get a temporary daily driver and leave the TD parked until 935racer gets a ceramic coater.
Another thought - if your glow plugs being turned on during idling solved the situation, you might be able to do something to wire them to go on whenever the RPMs dropped below a certain point.
Good idea. I can get one of my friends to build a switch based on the RPM signal coming from the "W" terminal on the alternator. I drive in traffic a lot on a daily basis, will the glow plugs last long? Does it say somewhere how many continous hours they're rated for?
Glow plugs didn't completely cut my smoke, it just reduced it. If the engine is revved in neutral with or without glow plugs, there'll still be a big plume of white smoke. I already failed Aircare (emissions) with the glow plugs active throughout the test. They repeatedly revved the engine pretty high as part of the idle test, but I normally don't do that in traffic.
Coming up:
Compression #s
Leakdown #s
Oil temp #s
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Knowing that switching the glow plugs on helped the situation I think says a lot - that you are indeed not getting high enough compression temperature. Why it misses a little above idle but not at idle is mysterious... Is it just a transitional thing that happens when extra fueling is given to raise the RPMs, or does the missing happen if the RPMs are held at a fixed number a little bit above idle?
I'm pretty sure I noticed once before when I was watching a codriver racing my car at at the start line, they had this habit of revving the motor aggressively up and down a few times and I remember noticing for the first time ever that I thought I heard missing coming out through the exhaust noise when they revved it very quickly and aggressively under no load. I never heard it except for that condition, so never gave it too much thought through. But could it be that too much fuel applied too quickly could make the mixture more likely to miss? I think it's plausible, because if the fuel is turned up more gradually then it has more time to warm up the combustion chambers, but if a load of fuel suddenly gets dumped when the combustion chamber walls didn't have the chance to get warmed up, the extra fuel would take more heat energy from the charge to convert it from liquid to vapor to the point where combustion could be delayed or might not even happen at all.
Could you switch to any thinner of a head gasket or are you already as thin as you can comfortably get? Employing a few small tricks instead of one big one may very well be your fix here. Your coolant thermostat OEM temp?
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Why it misses a little above idle but not at idle is mysterious... Is it just a transitional thing that happens when extra fueling is given to raise the RPMs, or does the missing happen if the RPMs are held at a fixed number a little bit above idle?
I believe it's a transitional thing. Part throttle @ say 1,500 RPM will misfire, but WOT @ 1,500 RPM won't misfire as much.
So I'm doing WOT constantly in 45 minute bumper-to-bumper traffic (each way) to avoid the excess smoke. Combine that with a 6lb flywheel and a stiff clutch and imagine how much fun that is :P But with a stock NA pump I'm not accelerating too quickly.
Your coolant thermostat OEM temp?
185 F (85 C)
Could you switch to any thinner of a head gasket or are you already as thin as you can comfortably get?
I recently switched from a 3-hole 1.9TD gasket to a 1-hole 1.9TD gasket and I don't think I can go any thinner. The piston protrusion height is near the max limit of the 1-hole. The 1.9TD head was also decked which may or may not have affected compression.
if a load of fuel suddenly gets dumped when the combustion chamber walls didn't have the chance to get warmed up, the extra fuel would take more heat energy from the charge to convert it from liquid to vapor to the point where combustion could be delayed or might not even happen at all.
Now that's an interesting thought. I don't remember holding at 1,500 RPM in neutral long enough or stable enough until the cylinders are warm and see if it reduces the misfire. To accurately test it I'll raise the idle screw to firmly hold 1,500 RPM and experiment with different idle conditions.
Employing a few small tricks instead of one big one may very well be your fix here.
I think so too. So I suppose I will try the following in particular order:
1) Higher temp thermostat.
2) Look into building an automated glow plug system for low RPM.
3) Airflow restriction (again). I will install the EGR, keep the throttle plate in an almost closed position and actually drive in traffic - see if it makes any bit of difference.
4) Heat the intake air (briefly experiment with heat gun first). I have a hot air rework station that I use to desolder chips in TDI ECUs.. 200 degrees F for intake air is no problem :D although I would start at lower temps.
(http://www.aoyue.de/images/prod/Aoyue_850A++_1.jpg)
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Malone - one more idea for you, might more one of the more "experimental" ones though... Switch to injectors with a different time-fuel release profile, IE: experiment with different pilot injection. They inject a small amount of fuel before the main load to get the fuel burning earlier. Then the small burning flame helps the big main fuel load get evaporated and more smoothly combusted. I know stock VW IDI Diesel nozzles are what they call "throttling pintle" nozzles... which employ this feature to some degree by the pintle not opening a large cross section earlier parts of the stroke. There are some angled flat-cut pintles that can make the pilot injection transition a little more smoothly into the main fuel load. I don't know if it would work, but flat-cut pintles are to be found on some OEM VW, european-only eco-diesel applications I believe. The other way to fiddle with the pilot injection feature is to use dual-spring injector holders (which I'm curious if you've already got or if you just have the single springs?) The first stage has a lower spring rate so the injector snaps open to get the pilot injection going quicker, and then the spring rate increases and the pintle lift slows down when opening more for for the main injection. Sort of a lot of fussing to test this stuff when there is only a chance it will fix your problem (and could even make matters worse as it is experimental), but you are kind of blazing new territory here with your 1.9 head on 1.6 block and I suppose that's just part of the territory.
On that note, I can't help but wonder haven't anyone else tried a 1.9 head on 1.6 block before? A while ago I thought Bryson (Dr Diesel) had build such a beast, IRRC. But oh yeah... I guess your motor is the first to employ the "secret" combustion chamber mod though... right.
On the bright side of things... at least your motor starts right up... and with a gasser starter motor to boot! :shock: ...and it sounds like when it gets above 2000RPM that it goes pretty well too. :wink:
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Thanks for bringing the injector/nozzle alternatives to light - that's something I'll strongly consider.
I just got an injector pop-tester last night :D so I can test some injector variations, a friend in Europe may be able to send a few injector examples. The tester will be a handy tool.
Both sets of injectors (OEM & GTD) that were used in my TD are single-spring.
I wondered the same thing about whether anyone else has tried a 1.9 head on 1.6 block. Erik, 935racer's friend, mentioned trying a 1.9 head on his 1.6 block. I'm curious as to see how it will run, especially without the head deck mod that lowers compression.
But oh yeah... I guess your motor is the first to employ the "secret" combustion chamber mod though... right.
:lol: I know what you mean. It would be nice if everyone on this board will share all their tricks. If I did the head deck mod myself I would have taken pictures of it and posted it here or at least described what was done.
If my head will come off again for a ceramic coating session then I'll ask 935racer for permission to take pictures. If he doesn't allow it then perhaps we should respect his business... but head work is similar to gassers, there are a number of machinists across the nation that know the same tricks. Maybe there's even publically available info on the Internet, I'll see if I can dig up some links.
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That's fine with me if you guys want to keep it a secret; I didn't mean to imply or request that you should reveal it. (But of course, common sense is that you might get useful more help in diagnosing your problems if we knew more about your setup.)
I only meant to say that because there is a secret mod involved, you might have differing results from others who have tried 1.9 heads on 1.6 blocks.
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Hey guys don't worry its not really that big of a secret. I am actually working on making a detailed post of what exactly I did. The reason I have not posted any pictures or talked about it much yet is because I wanted to make sure it worked and I wanted to get it on a flow bench to show actual results and stuff first but what the heck I'll try and explain it right now. I am not trying to hide stuff from you guys, I really like how we can all share info and tips and tricks on our diesels and I promise to do my part in showing what I have done.
Picture a cam lobe. Now picture a cam lobe and the head of a valve. Half of the cam lobe is round. The valve head is round. If you were to stack the cam lobe on top of the valve and line the bottoms up there would be that funky shape hanging off the end of the valve. Now put that valve back in the head, and carve that weird overlap shape into the deck of the head about .25-.5mm deep.
It might be hard to picture without pictures I'll try and draw something up and to better illustrate. Mark we can do a compression test on saturday.
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Malone,What cam do you have in this engine,1.6 or 1.9,Are they different form eachother mabye swaping them is an option :?:
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The deck mod probably adds 5cc - 7cc of volume per cylinder. I dont recall if we mesured it. It is used on the PDR race trucks as well as on some gas engine's it was originoly pioneered by a guy in India, he clamied that on a gas motor it made it almost direct drive, no need for a tranny as the torque spread was so good. It definatly is an air monster. This car went from smoking up three lanes of traffic with thick black soot, with his giles pump to no smoke and needing to turn up the fuel a fair bit for just a haze. :shock:
The cam is a custom build, not sure which stage is curently in there though. Dave?
Mark mabey you can draw up a pic of the deck mod? I don't think my paint skills are good enough. :roll:
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I thought the cam's stock, unless Dave snuck in a custom cam when he pulled the head recently :D
Sure I'll draw the diagram of the deck mod. I'm currently at work and won't be home until late tonight though.
*edit: DVST8R has just posted a diagram on the next page
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Got your PM.
Here is my attempt at Paint, straight up KG style. :P
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b382/dvst8r/Deck-mod.gif)
The Red circle is the the exhuast valve, the Blue one is the intake valve, the grey area's on either side are the area that has been relived. Of coures in real life they have uniform shape and size, as well as, they have a slightly differn't overall shape, size, ect..., but it will give you guys an idea. As Dave said earlier the relief is about .25mm-.5mm deep.
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Yeah thats kind of what it looks like, I'll grab a core head and go at it with a marker so you guys know what I am talking about. The mod gives a huge increase of airflow. You shoulda heard how shocked Giles was when I said I had to turn the fuel screw in a couple turns to just get a haze under boost. Sorry buddy now you gotta build a bigger badder pump :twisted: This isn;t something I would reccomend unless you have a proper electric die grinder and some porting skills. I can't remember the weight but I think I removed over 1lb of aluminum from Marks head.
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I wish I took a picture during the 2 days my TD lasted (since it was swapped in my MK3) with Giles' stage 4 pump, but this is a fairly accurate representation of my smoke, although it was more dispersed with a downturned exhaust tip:
(http://www.dieselinside.com/misc/smoke.jpg)
While driving I couldn't even see 1 feet past my rear windshield as the smoke was battering it.
Now this picture represents my current smoke at same boost since the airflow improvement:
(http://autonet.ca/News/2005/03/23/f150.jpg)
Zip, nada, no grey smoke :P The GT20 may have contributed to the extra airflow but according to its map it doesn't seem much more efficient than the stock TD turbo, if at all. The difference in smoke & power though is just incredible, thanks to 935racer's headwork.
I think the modified 1.9 head is worth it. We can reduce the low load white/blue smoke to keep the car daily driveable. Like fspGTD said, it's experimental, but we will make it work. :)
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Well since Mark's "smoke" picture didn't work, that and I think it's a photochop anyway, if it's the pic I think it is, this will give you an idea of what it was like.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b382/dvst8r/final_decision.gif)
:twisted:
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Sick :twisted:
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That tractor is badass. But really it is amazing how much airflow there is now compared to when the stock 1.6 head was on. I'll get some #'s once I get my flowbench all together.
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Brett's picture above is more realistic re: my TD until it blew :) The smoke in the pic I posted is a bit too dense. Nice tractor pic btw.
If heating the intake with a heat gun helps then this is the permanent setup I may try: a few glow plugs drilled into the pipe just before the intake.
(http://www.dieselinside.com/misc/racepipe_glowplugs.jpg)
The 3 red thingies represent 3 glow plugs. It doesn't have to be VW Bosch, it can be whatever will spread heat well. Just need to drill holes into the racepipe and then screw in the glow plugs. Extremely easy to install and extremely easy to replace/maintain, not to mention inexpensive. Depending on the number of glow plugs, the pipe will resemble an airplane radial engine :P. It may reduce the need for glow plugs in the TD head, which take longer to test & replace.
The custom low RPM switch for plugs is an ideal solution, but for now I can use the factory switch on the fuel pump bracket.. it's used for the shiftlight indicator on factory instrument clusters. I can wire the no-throttle switch (opposite of WOT switch) to the glow plugs...voila, done in 5 minutes. During no throttle (e.g. @ idle) glow plugs are turned on. As soon as I touch the throttle to accelerate the car, the glow plugs will turn off immediately and the prechamber/cylinder probably won't cool down too quickly as more fuel are immediately injected.
This may be a nice progress. The EGR throttle plate & higher temp thermostat are still considered as well.
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Mark, if you are going to this much trouble, why not simply wire the main glow plugs to do this? Even easier, I'd think, and keeps the heat where you need it.
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Mark, if you are going to this much trouble, why not simply wire the main glow plugs to do this? Even easier, I'd think, and keeps the heat where you need it.
A few reasons :):
1) Using the main glow plugs alone cuts down smoke almost completely @ idle, but not while revving the engine in neutral, which resulted in a fail at Aircare.
2) Using both sets of glow plugs @ head & intake may show improvements. It could also result in smoother Winter starts.
Glow plugs in the "race pipe" before the intake won't be high maintenance. If I want to get rid of the plugs completely, I can simply replace the racepipe with another pipe that has no holes. This requires loosening of just 4 bolts or nuts. The only negative thing I see in installing glow plugs in the intake is potential turbulence of charge air travelling around the plugs but I don't think it'd be a big issue. Anyway it'll be an inexpensive experiment. One small thing at a time.
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Mark, not a bad idea at all, but I would think you might get better results using a heater designed for this kind of application instead of glow plugs... I'd look into grid heaters found in some (usually direct injection) diesel's cold starting systems. :P
The problem with using a glow plug here is that you can be assured the heat will be utilized far less efficiently than mounted in the head, because of how far away it is in both distance and timing from the fuel injection event (so it might not help very much.)
FYI - I don't know a whole lot about DI diesel grid heaters, but a quick web search uncovered a few data points: I found references to 400, 600, and 1000 watt models being added or OEM on some light-duty truck DI diesel motors. I coudn't find a picture of what the heating element of one looks like, but this page has a picture of what one looks like on the outside (scroll down a little bit past the center): http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/2006MY.htm
Also, be careful about overloading your alternator. Ideally you'd want it to be able to "keep up" at idle and not draw your battery down. You are talking about adding a lot of additional electric current draw here that will possibly be used frequently and for long cycles. Even a 500 watt model would be 46 amps current draw :shock: Alternators often can only put out a fraction of what they're rated at idle by the way. I've got a picture of current versus RPM of an automotive type application unit somewhere that might help illustrate this. You might want to rethink going all out on the electrical heating.
If it were me I'd try a warmer thermostat first. :wink:
Some VE pump throttle arms (like I think on some RA, SB, or 1.9 TD engines) have the throttle pedal isolated from the governor input shaft, and they're connected with a spring and a damper. This slows the reaction of the pump to the throttle pedal. Although it's not the hot ticket for a quickly responding engine, you might not need the precise throttle response for your application. It might prove useful for keeping your motor from missing during the "snap throttle" emissions test. Or you could just defueling the pump for the test and then re-set it how you want it afterwards. :o
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I have no stereo system in my car, just interior & exterior lights, glow plugs, and occasionally the vent fan. That's still a lot of current draw for a grid heater though!
Again, thanks for the very informative posts, I'm consuming them.
Roger on doing the thermostat swap first. I'll also wire the no-throttle switch (on fuel pump) to the main glow plugs tomorrow. I have a question: The factory wires embedded into the switch appear to be 18 gauge, is that too small for glow plugs?
My idle water temp is actually 180 degrees F (82 C). It occasionally rises to 185 while driving. If I leave the interior heat on full blast during idle the water temp may even drop below 180 degrees F. That doesnt' happen anymore after approx. 20 min of driving, I assume due to increased oil temp. Would a 194 F (90 C) thermostat be a good choice?
Cheers,
Mark
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It is a lot of current draw... and it would be even higher combined with glow plugs being on at the same time! :shock: According to Bentley, four factory A1 diesel glow plugs initially draw 140 amps when they're switched on cold, and then the current drops down to a steady 36 amps. The newer bosch duraterm plugs might drop that current down even more during extended glowing however.
The following alternator "dyno plot" showing current output capability versus RPM is typical for automotive street application alternators:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid197/p079874ce6bef73ce722556e9e4cda170/f1088f69.jpg)
This explains why on some cars the voltage easily sags at idle.
I really doubt the light-duty throttle switch would hold up to glow plug current. You could always just wire in a heavy duty relay in parallel with the stock (timed) glow plug relay. It could be controlled by the VE pump electrical shut off solenoid +12v signal routed through the throttle switch maybe. Or perhaps the stock glow plug relay could be triggered if not directly controlled by the throttle switch.
Factory thermostat temperature for both an '84 Rabbit turbo-diesel or a 2001 Golf TDI is 87 deg C - 102 deg. C according to ETKA. So a thermostat that starts opening at 87 deg C shouldn't give you any major problems with overheating and boiling over if you've got a healthy cooling system I wouldn't think. Although I'm not sure if thermostats are readily available much hotter than that, a little bit hotter might work even better for your application if you could keep the coolant from boiling. You might need to also change radiator fan switches if you find your radiator fans were on all the time with the hotter thermostat.
The VW "blue" coolant was introduced to run at a higher temperature without boiling by the way than the old "green" stuff, so that might give a little added protection against boilover with running the engine hotter. Not sure how the boiling point of vw's latest "pink" coolant compares though. More glycol and less water can raise the boiling point, as can running a higher system pressure (I found some specifics in the middle of this web page:
http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/coolants.htm )
So also increasing the pressure of your expansion chamber cap would make your system more resistant to boilover. Although the extra pressure is harder in the rubber hoses, etc. I'm pretty sure the stock VW pressure caps release at about 20psi.
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I'm still running green coolant but will switch when I swap thermostats. I bought a jug of VW pink coolant a while ago that I'll use - will look up its boiling point.
My MK3 coolant reservoir had to be replaced 2 times due to boil-over from WOT pulls with LDA active. Once it leaks through one of the small ports on the reservoir (not through the pressure cap, which hasn't happened at all) it is irreversible - it will continue leaking even when the coolant's mildly warm. Maybe my cap's on too tight or is defective.
The VR6 radiator I installed seems to do a better job in stabilizing the coolant temp. My old 1.8L 8v radiator was even smaller than a 2.0L 8v radiator! I haven't seen over 195 degrees F lately, but I haven't driven with the LDA active lately either, I prefer to wait until intercooling is in effect.
What is the burn point / amp rating for the OEM glow plug fuse? I currently don't have a glow plug fuse (didn't come with for the swap) but I would like to buy a modern fuse with the same burn point. I had a Golf/Jetta II Bentley that's currently in 935racer's shop... not sure if it has detailed information on the fuse - will check tmw.
Cheers,
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look into Evan's if you want to try xtra high coolant temps - it's boiling point is 375 at sea level. It's not as good at tranferring heat as glycol/water, but if you are trying to keep the combustion chamber hotter, so much the better. One of it's good point in hight temp is that it tends not to form steam pockets at the super-hot points in the cooling system, namely in the cylinder head, so even with say a spot-temp of 300f it keeps cooling effectively, whereas a pressurized glycol mix with a boiling point of 245 or so will have formed a steam pocket there - steam cools really poorly, and temps in localized spots can run away to severe damage territory really quickly. Also,with no steam pockets, no water vapor/bubbles in the coolant stream, in the radiator, etc.
It's different stuff, and usually will require an upgraded cooling system (bigger radiator) for warm climates. Some interesting testimonials on their site, including running some earthmoving equipment at high altitude in China - high altitude effects pressurized cooling systems all the more.
One of my friends with a 1.9td in Colorado has had troubles with overheating in his converted Suzuki - it seems fine on shorter trips, but long hills at altitude have cause boil-over 3 times. It may be too late, but I wanted him to give Evan's a shot. So far, he just plans to be ready to rebuild it :?
I think I'll swap over to it next summer when I am on the road again - my rig tended to run hot as well. It works the motor pretty hard and at high rpm to push my large-tires-and-boxshape down the road.
oh - and as far as corrosion resistance, it's supposed to be an electrical insulator - no corrosion.
http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html
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The deck mod probably adds 5cc - 7cc of volume per cylinder. I dont recall if we mesured it. It is used on the PDR race trucks as well as on some gas engine's it was originoly pioneered by a guy in India, he clamied that on a gas motor it made it almost direct drive, no need for a tranny as the torque spread was so good.
I think I remember reading about this guy in India. Anyone have a link?
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I just wanted to point out that Mark if you can beat the 188 crank hp mark in a 1.6l liter displacement diesel, you've beaten the specific power output of the brand new, yet to be raced even V12 TDI lemans car!
Imagine, us grassroots, ameteur-funded DIY'ers beating VW/Audi motorports with all their millions in resources...
Check out what this guy said about the brand new V12 TDI in the Lemans racer:
This engine is the specifically most powerful diesel there is in the world and, up until now, the biggest challenge that Audi Sport has ever faced in its long history, explains Ulrich Baretzky, Head of Engine Technology at Audi Sport.
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000250072361/
The displacement (5.5 liters) and hp numbers ("exceeding 650hp) are stated elsewhere in the article. Do the math to figure out what hp a 1.6 liter diesel would need to get to match the specific power of this motor, and you will find it's "only" 188hp.
If you can develop an engine even close to this number while making it also daily driveable, I'd say that you should deserve a big medal. :D
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Big medal for 188, no worries man its going over 200WHP all in good time. :twisted:
P.S. I built the motor :wink:
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"Most powerfull Diesel engine in the world"... as compared to what?... race "car's"
I have ridden in a dodge with more dyno, and track proven hp then that. As well I have witnesed several dyno's of trucks pulling over 800whp. It would be approx. 700hp to be equivelnt hp/L, for a cummins 5.9L. Don't even get me started into pulling tractor's... :P
I'm sure Marks motor will get there, its just a matter of $$$. :)
In there defence I don't think Marks motor would survive a 24hr race though. :wink:
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Bobcat skid steer loaders with the 3300 Kubota diesels have those grids. Ill keep my eye out for one.
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In there defence I don't think Marks motor would survive a 24hr race though. :wink:
The race car MUST also make that HP smoke free :shock:
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Remember that the R10 race engine is restricted by the rules to a measely 20 psi boost.
Without that boost restriction, I'm thinking 1k hp would not be unreachable, even for a 24 hr engine.
moT
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The ACO's website lists the "absolute supercharging pressure (mbar) for [5250cc to 5500cc] diesel Supercharged Engines" as 2940 mbar. That's...
2940 / 1013 * 14.7 - 14.7 = 28 psi of boost (42.7 psi absolute)
BTW, diesel engines under 4000cc are permitted 41 psi of boost! :shock:
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The race car MUST also make that HP smoke free :shock:
Sorry Audi, you lose 1 point - there's no cool factor without the smoke :roll: :lol: Seriously though, the V12 is impressive. I'm looking forward to seeing it perform in the Le Mans race. I hope their clutch holds up unlike the Caterpillar diesel at Le Mans.
My TD's 140nhp (Gtech) peak was smoke free. 188bhp (crank) is approximately 170whp and 150-155nhp. The camshaft upgrade, intercooling, and a more efficient turbo in my application should continue to suppress smoke with the power increase (to an extent).
Of course a 24 hour endurance race is out of the question. :lol:
Just out of curiosity; are there any other diesels that make more than 118HP/L smoke-free?
First I'll try for max. HP/TQ possible without smoke.. have it dynoed with a video.. then go for max. HP/TQ possible regardless of smoke (EGT & drivetrain strength are the limit).
The R10 can probably put out much more than 118HP/L smoke-free with over 20-28 PSI boost though.
5.5L R10 @ 28 PSI: 5.1 PSI per litre
1.6L TD @ 35 PSI: 21 PSI per litre :shock:
deepmud: Evans cooling - interesting.. I did some searching and IMO there's not enough VW testimonials to encourage me to make the switch.
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Update on the low load white/blue smoke issue:
First off, some of you may recall that I've had smoking problems during low engine load or at idle. The smoke was bad enough to come out of both sides of the car and I can't turn on the vent fan or you'd see the news headline: Mark Malone Commits Suicide by Inhaling Smoke in Car :lol:
Thursday on the way to work I noticed something; there was no smoke at idle. 15 seconds of idling and there's still no smoke visible from the driver's seat. I checked the glow plugs to see if I left them on. They weren't.
Instead of doing a WOT acceleration from a stop I tried to accelerate as slowly as possible, which will usually induce shudder and lots of blue smoke due to misfire, but this time it was smooth as silk!! :shock: It feels soft & springy accelerating in 1st gear, much nicer.
I was surprised... but I did not want to jump here and announce that the smoke magically disappeared as I wanted to wait a few days to see if the new results are consistent. Yes, it's consistent.
Friday I pulled into a fueling station to wash my windows and I let my car idle (for approx. 30 secs). I walked to the back of the car and I could see a very tiny amount of blue smoke.. about 2 feet radius around the exhaust tip. There are many other gas cars that smoke more than I do due to cold weather.
How did this happen?? I can only scratch my head but perhaps the rings needed seating after all :) The engine has 3k to 3.5k km (approx. 2,000 miles).
Yes, I still puff blue smoke when accelerating but not as much as before. Revving while in idle will still cause smoke (not significantly reduced from before) and I'm not sure if it's good enough to be Aircare complaint. But it's great now for daily driving!!!
I also noticed a slight improvement in power, but I also had to adjust my throttle cable so I'm not too sure. With the leaky NA pump my car seems to have more torque in the 1k to 3k RPM range than my MK2 TD :shock: I was told the NA pump is in its factory setting but I'm sure the fuel screw was turned up at some point as I'm boosting 15 PSI max .. the extra 5 PSI can't come from the GT20's efficiency alone, or the head work. No grey/black (overfuel) smoke in all conditions.
My water pump is from my retired 1.8L 8v gas engine and it's still leaking. A new water pump and some accompanying hoses will be ordered. It'll be swapped in once my Giles pump (currently shelved) is updated and ready to install. These along with intercooling & cam should be a significant step forward in performance & practicality.
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"Most powerfull Diesel engine in the world"... as compared to what?
You left out an important part of the quote... "specifically most powerful diesel engine in the world." Presumably this is compared to any and all diesel engines (of any possible stripe) in the world.
Specific power is hp per unit of displacement. So if the Audi R10 TDI had 650hp, its specific power (power divided by 5.5 liters) would be 118.12 hp/liter.
But even in that metric, it seems ther are some diesels out there that might have a 650hp R10 beat. According to Hugh Mackinnes' Turbochargers, "As a result of high-pressure turbocharging with intercooling, tractor pullers are obtaining up to 800HP at 4000 rpm from a 400-CID [6.55 liter] diesel." [page 118] This is kind of an old book. But despite that, I don't know if the bar has really gone much higher. The engines he referenced were running triple-staged turbos and over 200psi boost pressure. Specific power of such an engine would be: 800hp / 6.55 = 122 hp/liter. Hmmm...
On closer look, audi actually claimed their R10 to have power "in excess of" 650hp. Since they won't reveal their exact numbers, there is no way to check the validity of their claim. We can determine that their R10 motor would need 671hp to match the 122 hp/liter that the tractor pulling diesels can reach. It certainly seems plausible that they could be making that.
So the bar is apparently higher than I previously though. A 1.6 liter VW turbodiesel would need to put out about 195hp to reach the world record setting 122 hp/liter mark for a diesel. Keep working at it guys. :) If we can get even close, with smoking, and on an engine less reliable, it's still a major accomplishment IMO competing against the resources of an OEM, to beat them in their own claim, emphasized in a public press release.
A 1.9 liter IDI TD or TDI would need 232hp to be at the possible world record 122 hp / liter mark, by the way.
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So I guess my 57 mini-horses has a ways to go :D
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Just out of curiosity; are there any other diesels that make more than 118HP/L smoke-free?
http://x502.putfile.com/videos/d7-22011333026.avi
That local Volvo has a Nissan 2,8 diesel engine ~350hp. Not too much smoke... Best times for Volvo 12.8 and Mercedes with smoke and 350-400hp 12.7
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deepmud: Evans cooling - interesting.. I did some searching and IMO there's not enough VW testimonials to encourage me to make the switch.
That's what my friend Mike (in Colorado) said :D
If I could buy it off the shelf, I'd have done it already for ya' a couple years ago:D
Maybe this summer.
1.9td, big intercooler, up to 15 to 20 psi (still have the little turbo) and a lot of constant load (39.5 x 18 Boggers and a roof height near 7 feet) works it pretty hard. The scary part is going to be living with a possible sustained high temp, and considering that "normal". The coolant doesn't cool better, it's actually LESS able to trasfer heat - it just makes high temps safer - at least in theory. It's the theory part that's a little scary. My rig will be completely reconfigured in it's drivetrain and cooling/intercooling as compared to the last time I drove it, so the coversion, if I do it, won't be a good scientific before/after comparison. I would be report results anyway if/when I make the switch.
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not to be pessimistic but you cant really judge your horsepower very well with a g-tech. i would def like to see the car on a dyno to prove me wrong. my friend owns a dyno and you will be suprised how low numbers cars actually put out.
im not trying to be a bugger though, i would just like to see some dyno charts. would be nice to see how flat the torque curve is.
-jared
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Well as far as smoke free power and power per psi, the R10 definatly has everything that I can think of beat, however....
http://www.cumminsracing.com/
Though they do not tell you howmuch power it makes "cummins experts" agree it is well over 1100hp... Which would be 186Hp/L
Next, I know that current pulling tractors make 3000+Hp out of approx 6.6L, converted Diesel to Alcohol run in excess of 5000hp. As we are talking diesel we will stick with the 3000hp which would bring the Hp/L too...~455HP/L
Now stop and think of a 1.6td with that Hp/L ~ 730ish. What you have to keep in mind is that these tractors are prepped for this event and that is it, they run cemented blocks, no coolent, custom everything. Last I heard a IP for a contending tractor was running in the neighbohr hood of 20K USD. They will only run for about 5min at a time, as they have no way to cool the motor, and are torn down after every event. Finally they smoke like a freight train hauling a tire fire. The reason they do this, as they could easliy run a clean, but they don't want the chance to leave any possible power in the pump.
Jake pulling tractor's today while closely garded on the exact psi they are running, it is known that it is in excess of 300psi. I have a relitive in Alberta that does the NW pulling circut with an Alcohol 2wd truck class. While he does not build diesel prostock or promod tractors he is around them week in and week out, and does wrench on them frequently.
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What is a cemented block? :oops:
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A cemented block is when you fill all of the coolent passages with cement to increase the strenght of a block, it is very common in pure drag cars, or pulling vehicals. Were the event is so short that they don't need a cooling system.
I should adress that it is nolonger cement that they use but a "block cement" formula of some sort. However at one point it was cement that was used. :wink:
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the alcohol tractors run real clean, there was one alcohol tractor on our circuit this year and it was pretty amazing. no one voted for him to set the sled.
-jared
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"cummins experts" agree it is well over 1100hp... Which would be 186Hp/L
...
current pulling tractors make 3000+Hp out of approx 6.6L, ...which would bring the Hp/L too...~455HP/L
That's amazing. :shock: And I guess Ulrich Baretzky was smoking crack.
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the alcohol tractors run real clean, there was one alcohol tractor on our circuit this year and it was pretty amazing. no one voted for him to set the sled.
-jared
Yeah Alcohol, has even a higher energy per which ever unit you choose to use then diesel, as such the diesel guys are really starting to struggle to "keep up" with the monster alcohol guys these days. I'm still a sucker for a pro stock or pro mod diesel tractor though, I have loved them since I was knee high to a duck. :wink:
Jared where are you from? What pulling circut?
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Yeah Alcohol, has even a higher energy per which ever unit you choose to use then diesel
Not so.
Gasoline has 19,000 to 20,000 BTU/lb
Diesel has 18,000 to 19,000 BTU/lb
Ethyl alcohol has 11,500 to 12,800 BTU/lb
Methyl alcohol has 8,600 to 9,700 BTU/lb
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I wonder why they haven't installed a 3,000HP+ diesel motor into a 1/4 dragster and blow the current 7 sec record away. It would be interesting.
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because of the rules.
also top fuel is putting out 5500hp.
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Yeah Alcohol, has even a higher energy per which ever unit you choose to use then diesel
Not so.
Gasoline has 19,000 to 20,000 BTU/lb
Diesel has 18,000 to 19,000 BTU/lb
Ethyl alcohol has 11,500 to 12,800 BTU/lb
Methyl alcohol has 8,600 to 9,700 BTU/lb
VWRacer, Thank's for correcting me I obviously was under the wrong impression.
Mark, the reason that those motors are not in a drag car such as the one that i posted the link to is size and weight, tractor blocks for there displacement are huge and heavy, neither of which matter to a pulling tractor as the tractor has plenty of space, and you end up adding weights to the front end of the tractor anyway.
Master ACiD, The drag car mark refers too doesnt run in a sanctioned class therefore you could put a tractor motor in but for reasons I have already mentioned I don't thikn it owuld be an easy or worthwile task. Last I heard Top fuel aka: nitro methane guys where in the 6200Hp+ area. With that being said I like my diesel nice and safe and stable, Nitro is so sketchy :shock:
So I pose my next question: Why do alcohol tractors consistently make more power? they run the same motor's just converted to run alcohol, and produce alot more power, is it better cooling of the fuel ?? or ???.
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So I pose my next question: Why do alcohol tractors consistently make more power? they run the same motor's just converted to run alcohol, and produce alot more power, is it better cooling of the fuel ?? or ???.
Are they still compression ignition? If not they would be homognous charge engines and could spin higher RPMs with similar characteristics to a gasser.
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i have a theory that btu per gallon isnt an indication of power potential.
for instance, you take a gasoline car engine, convert it to run on alchy, and you get 10% more power. how can this be? gasoline has more btu per gallon than alchy.
the reason, i think is the air to fuel ratio. alchy may not be quite as high in btu value than gas, but you have to run more than twice the ammount for the engine to run properly. roughly a 12:1 afr for gas, and 5:1 afr for alchy. by the way im talking about optimum power here, not stoich.
so inside the actual cylinders, it would look more like this.
btu of gas:20,000?
btu of alchy : 25,000?
diesel: somewhere in between?
i am not sure about diesel. i know that just like alchy, it has a lower afr than gasoline, if you ran diesel in a spark ignition engine. for instance, try running a 50% mix of diesel and 50% gasoline in a lawnmower, and the engine run run very lean and starve for fuel. need to run it with the choke on to keep it running. if you richen up the carby on the mower engine, then you can run 50% diesel and 50% gas mix without lean issues.
pretty much the same thing happens when you try to run a gasoline engine on alcohol.
to put it all together and form a conclusion i am not really able to do. it starts to get foggy from ths point on out for me. like i said, its only my theory and i dont know if this is all true.
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Got your PM.
Here is my attempt at Paint, straight up KG style. :P
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b382/dvst8r/Deck-mod.gif)
The Red circle is the the exhuast valve, the Blue one is the intake valve, the grey area's on either side are the area that has been relived. Of coures in real life they have uniform shape and size, as well as, they have a slightly differn't overall shape, size, ect..., but it will give you guys an idea. As Dave said earlier the relief is about .25mm-.5mm deep.
Could you do this to a 1.6/1.5 NA?
More air flow, more fuel...you know. :wink:
120 hp 1.6D.... :twisted:
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I'm sure you could, as it was oringinolly developed for NA gas motors.
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(http://www.vwdiesel.net/picserv/redrotors/pre1a.jpg)
Picture by RedRotors[/img]
cool, the picture of the cuted head i give to redrotors!
i'm happy to see that it served to someone.
good works!
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the alcohol tractors run real clean, there was one alcohol tractor on our circuit this year and it was pretty amazing. no one voted for him to set the sled.
-jared
Yeah Alcohol, has even a higher energy per which ever unit you choose to use then diesel, as such the diesel guys are really starting to struggle to "keep up" with the monster alcohol guys these days. I'm still a sucker for a pro stock or pro mod diesel tractor though, I have loved them since I was knee high to a duck. :wink:
Jared where are you from? What pulling circut?
im from upstate ny, the ciruit is a northeast circuit. one of our big pulls is the washington county fair. it has been on espn before. i dont have a pulling tractor though i just help wrench on my friends.
-jared
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i have a theory that btu per gallon isnt an indication of power potential.
for instance, you take a gasoline car engine, convert it to run on alchy, and you get 10% more power. how can this be? gasoline has more btu per gallon than alchy.
the reason, i think is the air to fuel ratio. alchy may not be quite as high in btu value than gas, but you have to run more than twice the ammount for the engine to run properly. roughly a 12:1 afr for gas, and 5:1 afr for alchy. by the way im talking about optimum power here, not stoich.
so inside the actual cylinders, it would look more like this.
btu of gas:20,000?
btu of alchy : 25,000?
diesel: somewhere in between?
i am not sure about diesel. i know that just like alchy, it has a lower afr than gasoline, if you ran diesel in a spark ignition engine. for instance, try running a 50% mix of diesel and 50% gasoline in a lawnmower, and the engine run run very lean and starve for fuel. need to run it with the choke on to keep it running. if you richen up the carby on the mower engine, then you can run 50% diesel and 50% gas mix without lean issues.
pretty much the same thing happens when you try to run a gasoline engine on alcohol.
to put it all together and form a conclusion i am not really able to do. it starts to get foggy from ths point on out for me. like i said, its only my theory and i dont know if this is all true.
I think you've got the heart of the issue -- the amount of air needed. Horsepower scales with rpm ... I think the F1 guys are running at 18,000 rpm redlines ... dragsters well over 10,000 rpm. At those rpms getting enough air in is tough even with super or turbo charging. With alky you need less air and you get a get a better/quicker cooling effect on the inlet charge as the alcohol gasifies.
As long as we're talking "normal" rpm levels the torque advantage of diesels translates directly into a power advantage. Things change when race engines get built for really high rpms -- at the limit rpm wins. Years ago Toyota demo'd a small single cylinder gasser at 90,000 rpm just to show they could do it ... great specific power but tiny. For me if you want to set the specific power standard with a diesel you've got to make the thing really spin. I don't see any reason why this can't be done. I do know (having blown up a gasser or two in the early 60's!) that pre-ignition/detonation is a huge problem in that world...this gives diesels a leg up to start with. I've heard remarks about the relative speed of the flame front but haven't seen numbers besides nobody says a cylinder can only have a single fuel injector ... as for the pumps my daily driven is an old 6.9 l IDI ford with a stanadyne rotary pump very similar to the Bosch pumps on our VWs. My truck revs to 3600 no problem...now that's a V8 so the pump makes 8 pulses per revolution and they are big pulses feeding 6.9 liters of displacement. This is a bone stock pump. Seems like getting 4 smaller volume pulses per revolution at twice the speed shouldn't be impossible ... (that's the same number of pulses per unit time) ... well that's 7200 rpm a nice step in the right direction. Anyway you guys are the experts ... it's been nearly 40 years since I hot rodded an engine (still subscribe to Hot Rod though) ... but it's great fun to listen in on your discussions ... thought I'd chime in for the holidays.
All the best.
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Fuels which are "pure hydrocarbons" (like gasoline, diesel, methane, propane, etc) must get all of their oxygen used in combustion from the air. Alcohol however has oxygen stored inside its molecules, so more fuel can be burned for a given amont of air. This is the primary reason why alcohol runs with a lower air to fuel ratio and also why it makes more power (for a given quantity of air) than a pure hydrocarbon fuel. To read more along these lines, I recommend the book "High Performance Automotive Fuels & Fluids" by Jeff Hartmann.
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Fuels which are "pure hydrocarbons" (like gasoline, diesel, methane, propane, etc) must get all of their oxygen used in combustion from the air. Alcohol however has oxygen stored inside its molecules, so more fuel can be burned for a given amont of air. This explains the primary reason why alcohol uses lower air to fuel ratios and also why it generally makes more power than a pure hydrocarbon fuel as well.
Hmmm. I wonder how this affects biodiesel, since it is oxygenated as well. I'd guess that is why it reduces smoke, since the engine is effectively running at a little lower fueling level for a given injection charge as far as the fuel-air ratio goes.
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I posted this on November 10 '05 in page 3 of this thread:
I failed Aircare (emissions) a few days ago due to excess white smoke during an idle test (hardcore revving in neutral). The criteria to pass is 0-30% exhaust opacity. The average of all passing diesels is 6%. I got 49%.
I went back to Aircare for the second time a few days ago and passed:
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/aircare_2004.jpg)
My car went from being a disgusting smoker (49% smoke opacity) to one of the cleanest diesels I have ever driven (2.69% smoke opacity). Both results were with regular diesel. And what did we do to make the significant change in smoke? Nothing but drive. During my first Aircare attempt the engine had less than 1,000km if I remember correctly. Right now it's probably around 6,000km. The engine just needed to be broken in.
Since the first Aircare attempt 935racer removed the head, had the prechamber cups ceramic coated, and installed a slightly thinner 1-hole headgasket vs. the 3-hole I had earlier. It was an attempt to increase compression/heat. The smoke since these changes were not any better, probably worse. We also swapped out the IP for a different one with no positive results. However, after driving a few thousand kms the smoke started dropping quickly. The shudder during low load at low RPM is virtually gone now. The engine purrs like a kitten and pulls very smoothly. It's like a whole new engine again, such a pleasure to drive :cool: It feels like I have a bit more power as well, or it could be placebo effect. My average EGT has dropped ~100 degrees F (pre-turbo) to 700-800 while cruising on the level highway @ 100km/h (approx 2,400 RPM tall gear, 2600lb load). Idle EGT seems to drop a little more quickly, usually to a minimum of 340 degrees F unless I idle for a long time.
935racer laid out a few injectors:
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/3_injectors.jpg)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/3_injectors1.jpg)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/3_injectors2.jpg)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/3_injectors3.jpg)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/3_injectors4.jpg)
935racer installed the complete MB 300D injectors in my 1.6TD and I went out for a test drive. I had shudder during low RPM but it turned out that one of the injector lines were loose. After tightening I went out for a drive again and it was smooth just like the factory VW TD injectors. It was dark outside and I do not have a speedometer so it was hard to tell if I got a performance gain.. but it seemed I picked up speed more quickly at the top of 3rd and 4th gear.
Seeing as 300D tuning is quite popular in Europe with some 500+hp results I wonder if they have upgraded nozzles. If they do, I'm sure it will fit in a VW TD.
I'm curious as to know how to run the GM 6.2L nozzles.. they do not seat properly in VW TD injector bodies. Any suggestions?
Eventually I will post a new "nozzle shoot-out" thread that details tests of the following injectors, done over a single weekend. Each injector set will be Gteched multiple times on a same stretch of road:
1) VW OEM injector set (1,000km new, 155 bar)
2) VW GTD aftermarket set #1 (160 bar)
3) VW GTD aftermarket set #2 (155 bar)
4) MB 3.0L 300D set #1 (130 bar)
5) MB 3.0L 300D set #2 (155 bar)
6) MB 3.0L 300D aftermarket (?)
7) GM 6.2L (?)
8) vwmike's 2mm opening nozzles (?)
Note that the MB injectors have 3 small ports at the top vs. VW's 1 big port (where the IP injector line attaches to). I wonder if there will be a difference with MB nozzles in VW TD injector cores.
Injector flame test :D
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/flame1.jpg)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/flame2.jpg)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/flame3.jpg)
It's an amusing way of seeing which injector has the biggest and most intensive spray.
The 130bar MB 3.0L injector sprays a bit longer than the VW 1.6TD injectors. I would have taken more detailed pictures of each injector's flame if it weren't for a dying camera battery.
935racer (Dave) will have a comprehensive guide to governor modding with pictures covering every step. Here's a teaser pic... there will be better lighting in pictures for the actual guide:
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/governor_mod.jpg)
We were actually going to finish it on Monday but my camera's battery died so we aborted it. We'll finish it this week. The guide will follow in a few days, at the latest next week.
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Interesting flame test :lol: ...Makes for a cool pic! :)
Those Benz injectors look like "CHIP" center hole in pintle nozzles. Are they DN0 SD 240? Those have higher lift, as documented in the nozzle pintle lift comparison thread here:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2029&start=8
And there is more info on them here:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2230
Supposedly if you look really close at the fat pintle tip, it should have a tiny hole drilled down the middle and then another hole drilled sideways connecting to it. The CHIP feature is for pilot injection, and the injector has been superceeded to different styles of pilot injection nozzles more like our vw "throttling pintle" design due to the CHIP having problems getting easily clogged with carbon. Supposedly the CHIP injector bodies have a filter incorporated in them (as an added measure to keep the CHIP from clogging...) that may explain those different looking holes under the fuel supply unions compared to a standard injector body. Neither their flow not their in-car performance on a VW application has been tested, so I'm very interested in hearing how your test results pan out.
I'm all set up and willing to flow-test injector nozzles (at full pintle lift) if anyone's interested, it would be a much easier method of testing a lot of injectors than swapping them onto the car and dyno testing each. From the flow test results we'd have better information as to which injectors are worthy of the time and effort needed to to accurate, scientific in-car testing. The flow test results would also be quite precise and repeatable. Just a thought, and an offer. :)
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1) VW OEM injector set (1,000km new, 155 bar)
2) VW GTD aftermarket set #1 (160 bar)
3) VW GTD aftermarket set #2 (155 bar)
OEM injectors are those that come stock in u'r 1.6TD's. OK!
What about the GTD injectors?? I usually read ppl here referring them as the RA/SB (Europe only..) injectors (or nozzles)! Is that?
I get a bit confused about that.. :?
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:shock: :lol: :!:
I expected you'd respond :lol:
Those Benz injectors look like "CHIP" center hole in pintle nozzles. Are they DN0 SD 240?
The MB injectors are currently in Dave's possession. I'll verify the part # next time I see him or perhaps he could check it for us.
Thanks for the CHIP details and for the link to pintle lift specs, very interesting. Based on my brief impression with 300D injectors I found that they may be a nice alternative to GTDs (concerning performance) but they fueled less than I expected: I did not immediately notice an increase in max. boost and EGT.
If you are just looking for a very high flowing injector, I have been doing some experiments with modifying some conventional, narrow-tipped pintle tip injectors for higher flow and the preliminary results are very encouraging. :) If you are interested in trying out one of my modified sets, shoot me an IM.
I'm very interested in trying these :)
From the flow test results we'd have better information as to which injectors are worthy of the time and effort needed to to accurate, scientific in-car testing. The flow test results would also be quite precise and repeatable. Just a thought, and an offer. :)
That is the kind of information I (and some others) would really benefit from. I'd love to see flow test results :)
How is it done? Measuring fuel volume in a container after injection(s)?
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OEM injectors are those that come stock in u'r 1.6TD's. OK!
What about the GTD injectors?? I usually read ppl here referring them as the RA/SB (Europe only..) injectors (or nozzles)! Is that?
I get a bit confused about that.. :?
Yes the GTD nozzles I have are "RA" or "SB". My OEM 1.6TD injectors are not GTDs (they're from a non-intercooled 1.6TD) and it supposedly flows a bit less.
By the way my GTD nozzles are not OEM. They're aftermarket copies.
from fspGTD:
Nozzle ID Application [VW Part #] Lift
----------- ------------------------- ------------ ------
DN0 SD 273 Hydraulic 1.6D&TD 068 130 211D .024"
DN0 SD 274 Intercooled 1.6TD 068 130 211F .0315"
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did you ever check the compression again on this engine?
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Hey how about some pictures of the twin turbo setup??? I know its at least partially done :P
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did you ever check the compression again on this engine?
Not yet.. the engine still has just under 10,000 km (6,200 miles) I believe. Next time I swap injectors I think I'll do a compression test.
Seeing as you're just curious about compression with a 1.9 head on 1.6 block, I don't think my engine will be a good reference point because my 1.9 head has an uniquely modified deck that lowers compression.
My cold start-up (around 0 degrees C) is instant (fires to life after 1 or 2 cranks) and it's very smoky. It also runs a tad rough although it idles fine on its own. I don't have the cold-start cable yet. About 2 minutes later it's smoke free and runs smoothly. It's an acceptable compromise for a daily driver, for me anyway.
DVST8R: What twin turbo?? :)
Another update: fspGTD has a set of custom nozzles that flow more than GTDs. He will send these to me after I give him his due :)
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Oh its a RUMOUR I have heard through the grapevine... :wink: Somthing about a kkk24 stacked with a t3/t4 hybrid... or somthing, but it is probably just hearsay. I mean who in there right mind would shove such a big turbo on a little 1.6L diesel :P .
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Got your PM.
Here is my attempt at Paint, straight up KG style. :P
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b382/dvst8r/Deck-mod.gif)
The Red circle is the the exhuast valve, the Blue one is the intake valve, the grey area's on either side are the area that has been relived. Of coures in real life they have uniform shape and size, as well as, they have a slightly differn't overall shape, size, ect..., but it will give you guys an idea. As Dave said earlier the relief is about .25mm-.5mm deep.
Could you do this to a 1.6/1.5 NA?
it'd kill your compression ratio.
For compression differences between 1.9 and 1.6 heads on 1.6 block without deck mods, I'm still trying to figure out why everyone keeps saying that a 1.9 head will lower my compression. The 1.9 and 1.6 pistons are identical in piston crown design, 1.9 and 1.6 head gaskets have the exact same thicknesses (verified on ETKA) for the exact same piston protrusions, 1.9 and 1.6 TD engines both are supposed to have around 490psi with a wear limit of 412 ish psi. I can't see where the 1.9 engine picks up the extra compression from to compensate for the slighly increased air volume caused by the bigger precups in the 1.9 head, ie if this makes such a difference when the 1.9 head is installed on a 1.6 block then why does the 1.9 engine have 490 psi with the same 1.9 head? It doesn't make sense. At any rate, I will know for sure within the next few weeks because I have almost got all the parts together and will be swapping my rebuilt 1.9 head onto my 1.6 TD block shortly.
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I can't see where the 1.9 engine picks up the extra compression from to compensate for the slighly increased air volume caused by the bigger precups in the 1.9 head, ie if this makes such a difference when the 1.9 head is installed on a 1.6 block then why does the 1.9 engine have 490 psi with the same 1.9 head? It doesn't make sense.
Because the 1.9 cylinders are bigger?
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I can't see where the 1.9 engine picks up the extra compression from to compensate for the slighly increased air volume caused by the bigger precups in the 1.9 head, ie if this makes such a difference when the 1.9 head is installed on a 1.6 block then why does the 1.9 engine have 490 psi with the same 1.9 head? It doesn't make sense.
Because the 1.9 cylinders are bigger?
would that not give it less compression? I would think that the top of the piston would be larger, so more air space, so less compression. I would have thought that VW would have had to compensate somewhere for the bigger cylinder in the 1.9 in order to maintain the same compression ratio, but it seems they did the opposite, made the precups bigger. Makes no sense to me.
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So what part of your mods are giving you basically twice the amount of torque right from low rpms too high rpms? Down at 2400 your boost cant be making too much of a differance. Maybe your larger exhaust and better flowing head? Curious as to what you think.
*edit: I combined the existing 1.6TD plots for a nice comparison. The power differences are pleasant :):
Stock 1.6TD (black) vs. Current 1.6TD (red)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16tdstock_vs_16tdmod.jpg)[/quote]
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I can't see where the 1.9 engine picks up the extra compression from to compensate for the slighly increased air volume caused by the bigger precups in the 1.9 head, ie if this makes such a difference when the 1.9 head is installed on a 1.6 block then why does the 1.9 engine have 490 psi with the same 1.9 head? It doesn't make sense.
Because the 1.9 cylinders are bigger?
would that not give it less compression? I would think that the top of the piston would be larger, so more air space, so less compression. I would have thought that VW would have had to compensate somewhere for the bigger cylinder in the 1.9 in order to maintain the same compression ratio, but it seems they did the opposite, made the precups bigger. Makes no sense to me.
there is more volume in the 1.9 cylinder so it basically means there is more air to be compressed, which gives the high compression. I'm really interested in deck mods to convert to 1.9 :)
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So what part of your mods are giving you basically twice the amount of torque right from low rpms too high rpms? Down at 2400 your boost cant be making too much of a differance. Maybe your larger exhaust and better flowing head? Curious as to what you think.
Likely from the following:
* Larger exhaust
* Better flowing head (big mound of aluminum shavings after 935racer finished the headwork)
* Better flowing PD130 intake (also port-matched to head)
* Better flowing exhaust manifold
* The GT20 turbo does spool QUICK
* Both turbine housing and exhaust manifold were cermachromed
* Higher camplate lift in fuel inj. pump
* New injectors
* Retained short intercooler plumbing (no FMIC)
* Maximum 1.6 piston OEM overbore size
* Lightened flywheel
I think that's most of it.
I did a little research on the deck mod (http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b382/dvst8r/Deck-mod.gif) that 935racer did to my head. I found a site that is dedicated to notching the deck of the head where the edges of the cylinder meets. For all types of cars. Notching is just that, imagine sticking a knife straight into a butter, that's what the narrow notch looks like. It's not exactly the same style as mine, but people have reported that it broadens the torque curve; more torque down low and more torque up top. That was a while ago and I don't have the URL now, but I'll search for it.
I can't say 100% if 935racer's deck mod actually worked in my case as all the modifications were put together at once, but I'd do the deck mod again as it also lowers compression, which is what I need for mucho boost. Better than pushing the whole cylinder head further from the cylinders via a thick flimsy headgasket.
I believe the Giles pump also played a big part in that low RPM torque. I am currently running a NA pump and I did a Gtech a while ago, it reported HP in the 50's. This is with the same calibration and on the same stretch of road. I forgot what the torque was, but 50HP!! :roll: I had turned up the fuel screw a little bit and it is still very driveable on streets & highway.. no grey/black smoke whatsoever and no problem accelerating to ~140km/h either. I could probably go faster but haven't bothered. Max boost is a slow 16 PSI due to limited NA fuel.
I will be sending my Giles pump (currently sitting on a shelf) + upgraded plunger parts back to him soon for an upgrade. I'm really looking forward to being able to rev past ~5,100 RPM (along with intercooling, 935racer's race cam), and I definitely need the extra fuel as I was smoke-free above 25 PSI or so (with LDA and fuel screw fully turned up in Giles' original pump).
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I remember discussing transmission options earlier in this thread, so I'll update on that: DVST8R is selling his VW 2.0L 02J transmission + shifter, which I will happily purchase soon. A taller 5th gear is considered.
I'll be saving up for a Peloquin LSD. It's better to have the transmission put together right before installing it in my car.
Stock driveaxles may be retained.. I don't think I need to worry about them unless I plan to run slicks, in which case it'll be a lot cheaper to just replace stock driveaxles a few times. I won't be running slicks all the time, just during some Friday night 1/4mi races (street legal tires may be required though). If the stock axles are that *bad* then I'll consider getting stronger aftermarket ones.
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Here's a Gtech plot of my current NA pump (black lines) vs. my most recent run with the TD pump (red lines).
(http://www.dieselinside.com/1.6td/gtech/16na.jpg)
I did three Gtech runs with the NA pump using the same Gtech calibration I used with the TD pump. The numbers were 52.9HP, 52.4HP, and 50.7HP so I chose the average.
My max. ungoverned boost with the NA pump is 16 PSI. I had the fuel screw turned up a slight bit above stock.
If you wondered; don't NA 1.6s make 52HP? shouldn't mine perform a little better with the additional fuel & perhaps boost? Answer: Some people still tend to overlook the fact that Gtech numbers are not brake or wheel horsepower numbers, so I'll reiterate: Gtech numbers are net. Based on 52nhp I'm guessing I have about 65-69bhp.
On the first page there's a graph of my stock Jetta 1.6TD that's factory rated at 69HP, and it reported 54nhp in Gtech. That's normal.
The Gtech numbers with the NA pump in my car is quite realistic if not conservative (I expected slightly higher numbers) and it also enforces that the consistent 140nhp numbers (estimated 160whp or 175bhp) with the TD pump are not inflated. That said, I cannot wait to run Giles' new pump update :). I desperately need more fuel and I honestly believe 200hp will be a piece of cake. :twisted:
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I found the 16 PSI boost level quite interesting. When the NA pump was first swapped in and untouched (fueling not adjusted), I boosted in the 13-14 PSI range. That's even higher than what a stock 1.6TD can boost with a standard 1.6TD pump :shock:
I suspect that my GT20's turbine was customized (aside from cermachroming) as it was originally marketed for diesel engines, TDIs in particular. I also found that my EGT climbs very quickly during high RPM. It's likely due to a lot of backpressure with the turbine. My air/water IC wasn't functional either, but the EGT sure climbed quick anyway.
That said, with a larger turbo setup, race cam, intercooling, and constant fueling my torque peak may be way up there 8) not 4,000 RPM like last time. The peak HP (currently 5,100 RPM right where the fuel-cut off was) could very easily be somewhere in between 6,000 RPM and 7,000 RPM.
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So what part of your mods are giving you basically twice the amount of torque right from low rpms too high rpms? Down at 2400 your boost cant be making too much of a differance. Maybe your larger exhaust and better flowing head? Curious as to what you think.
neverdieidi - Just thought I'd point out that it looks like the black G-tech run you are pointing out was done in 2nd gear but the red run was in 3rd gear. That could definitely throw off the results, and make them not very useful for direct comparison.
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You're right, I did a full 1/4 mile run in the stock 1.6TD (black line) and I forgot that Gtech automatically chose to plot 2nd gear.
I assume the lower 2nd gear will inflate numbers because of the extra g-force felt vs. a 3rd gear pull. If that is true, then re-doing the black Gtech run in 3rd gear will likely not close the gap with the red line.
The more recent Gtech plot I posted above are both 3rd gear pulls, done on the same stretch of road, with the same car & Gtech calibration. That to me is a more useful comparision.
I may come across another stock 1.6TD with really low mileage - I'll do a 3rd gear Gtech run in it if anyone cares.
Seeing as I'm not the only Gtech user, I wonder if anyone else has a Gtech file of a stock 1.6TD running 3rd gear?
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Ill see if I can get some stock third gear runs, if nothing else ill put mine back to stock and run her.
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Ok.
Hey guys, I finally took a video of my cold start smoke while leaving home for work this morning :) I may post it tonight.
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any chance of having or making a video of the full power of your diesel malone? like acceleration and such. :D
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any chance of having or making a video of the full power of your diesel malone? like acceleration and such. :D
Yeah I'll take a video for sure :), need to get the TD pump back in there first.
I had 11mm and 12mm parts that were in Alberta and they were supposed to be returned to me, but they're now considered stolen (I haven't seen them since 2004). The guy mentioned several times over several months that he'd ship the parts back to me and then he stopped responding.
I may go with a 10mm from Brett's Ford Ranger TD pump as I don't feel like shelling out another $200 USD for the third time for 12mm parts :evil: Damn thieves. There are a few 12mm for sale for a decent price but they are aftermarket (may not be OEM quality) and they need to be shipped as well. I'd rather waste no time: Its been months with the NA pump so I want the pump + 10mm rebuild to commence soon.
With Bosch 10mm I can be assured that it will spin 3,500 RPM (7K RPM) reliably. That paired with fspGTD's custom nozzles that flow 64% more than stock should provide nice fueling. Then eventually if I do NEED more fuel I may buy 11mm or 12mm and send a spare TD pump to Giles. That'll be great for compound turbos, but it will be nice to see how much HP we can get with the single GT20 turbo for now. We have yet to see full potential with the GT20. If I start smoking and the EGT is starting to push the limit then I'll be done with the turbo :twisted:
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Sounds like things are moving along nicely, Mark! Thanks for the update. 8)
Regarding 2nd gear versus 3rd gear G-tech results, keep in mind that the G-tech knows how fast you are going by integrating acceleration versus time, so it really is not a factor that the g-forces are bigger in 2nd gear than 3rd because that would be expected. The G-tech should be able to perfectly compensate for that, assuming the road is flat so it is getting accurate readings.
However, actual results don't match in different gears for the following reasons:
1. aerodynamic drag isn't linear with speed - since this drag increases exponentially as speed increases, it causes the higher gear results to be artificially lower. At lower speeds (and therefore lower gears), aerodynamics make much less of a difference.
2. engine-speed rotational inertia - heavy flywheels and engine-speed rotating components take more of the engine's available % of power at lower gears, which require a greater % change in engine RPM for a given change in road speed, than in higher gears. In my experience, this factor overwhelms aerodyanmic drag differences in the very low gears: 2nd gear and especially 1st gear. It is especially noticeably when you lighten a flywheel, because you will see your G-tech net horsepower figures increase in the lower gears significantly, (2nd gear significantly but even more dramatic difference in 1st gear!) but the difference it makes becomes less noticeable the higher the gear being tested, to the point where you might not notice of measure on the G-tech much difference resulting from a lightened flywheel in the higher gears.
So what I find is that there is a "sweet spot" gear where the G-tech reports highest horsepower numbers. In my Rabbit GTD autocrosser's case it's 3rd gear, but that could vary by a lot of factors like: gear ratios, aerodynamics of the car, relation of overall mass to engine-speed rotational mass, etc. What happens I belive is at too low of a gear, the net horsepower will be less than the optimized gear because of too much engine-speed rotational inertia causing high resistances to the the quick-changing engine RPMs. At too high of a gear, net horsepower will be less than at the optimized gear results because of excessive aerodynamic drag.
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i wish i knew as much about diesels as you do, geez, all the fine details you guys look at, im happy just knowing about how to increase fueling and boost! ill be paying a few visits to passenger performance this summer :D
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Speaking of compound turbos, I don't recall having posted these images earlier in this thread:
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/comp1.jpg)
(http://dieselinside.com/1.6td/comp2.jpg)
The smaller turbo is an OEM T3 and the larger one is a T3/T4.
935racer is fabricating a better setup; tubular equal length exhaust manifold and a custom intake manifold with radiuses that are approximately twice as large in the 90 degree bend that attaches to the head. The turbos may be a T3 with .48 A/R turbine / .42 A/R compressor, and a standard Holset HY35.
edit: Thanks for the info Jake :)
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:shock: :shock: :shock: Pulling up beside a diesel with that would be nuts! Can we say, "smoked ya!" :lol:
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:shock: :shock: :shock: Pulling up beside a diesel with that would be nuts! Can we say, "smoked ya!" :lol:
I would strongly suggest not pulling up to my right or you will be staring straight into an exhaust pipe in my front fender :D
(http://x10.putfile.com/3/8214484233.jpg)
(not my car, but similar idea)
The last turbo in the compound setup will sit towards the passenger side with its turbine outlet facing directly to the fender, so a short & straight exhaust pipe through the fender is ideal.
The car will still be street legal however. I'm thinking of reinstalling the stock exhaust system (under 2") that fits easily with no rattle and then teeing its downpipe to the big exhaust pipe, which is controlled by a valve. The valve will be wired together with my max. fuel & boost switch. Wiring will be extremely simple, about 30 minutes to complete.
Leaving the switch off inside the car uses stock fully muffled exhaust that is quiet and street legal. Flick the switch to "on" and the LDA, boost valve, & big exhaust opens up more within a couple seconds. More boost, fuel, and exhaust flow all at once.
Stock exhaust = bolts right on. Fender exit exhaust pipe = straight pipe, no bends.. also very easy. The main challenge is fabricating a 2" downpipe to connect the stock exhaust system to the main pipe, and there's lots of clearance with 2". All this may actually be easier than fabricating a complete turboback 2.5" or 3" exhaust system that is rattle-free on a lowered car.
Pros of the dual exhaust system:
* Easy to install
* Less prone to rattling
* Street legal with no compromises between regular driving and racing
* Cheaper in pipe costs. I.e. one big straight pipe and a few 2" bends for downpipe instead of a complete mandrel bent 2.5" or 3.0" system + aftermarket muffler.
Cons:
* Might be more expensive overall (only due to a good quality electronically actuated exhaust valve).
* Valve may become stuck due to soot build-up in the long run. However, the car will still be driveable should this happen and the valve is easily accessed or removed for cleaning.
Switch "off":
(http://x10.putfile.com/3/8215173031.jpg)
On:
(http://x10.putfile.com/3/8215174381.jpg)
I typed this in detail so 935racer can comprehend this idea, seeing as he's the welder.. what do ya think?
Am I crazy or is this actually viable? :) I'm open to discussions..
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my God this will ne awesome! What is your goal with this car anyways? just a really fast powerful IDI, racecar, mechanical show car? or just one plain sick jetta!? :P
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I'd go through the hood,with a small stack.That would really turn some heads !
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I vote for through hood not fender :lol:
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i say fender, its not a truck, or make it DTM style, like on the audis, coming out of the top of the rear quarter panel! :D
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I'll add a couple small things here, the o2j that brett has is going to need some work, I would reccomend a different R&P rather than a 5th gear swap. I've driven these close ratio trannys and I hate them, as soon as you shift you need to shift again, I remember in my 16vt I was always skipping gears, and cruising around town doing 70km/hr in 5th gear at liek 2 grand. Peloquin definately, while I have the case open for that it would be easy to put in a differnt R&P and powdercoat the cases! Stock axles will not work this tranny, and the stock cv cages will blow up every weekend anyways, I got really really fast at swapping axles in my 16vt. I am getting DSS stage 3 axles for my truck this time round.
The exhaust idea... Not so great, the best thing would be to make the one straight pipe going out the fender and than a different downpipe going to a 3inch exhaust. I'll build you a nice exhaust that doesnt rattle, that 3inch one I just cut out of your car was pretty gnarly. oh yeah the reason the exhaust valve is no good is cause you have a 3"turbine outlet and that exhaust if flying outa there, than its gonna hit this flat wall, that the problem right there, its liek driving your car into a brick wall, just crazy back pressure instead, and after all this back pressure trying to squeeze that hot gas into a 2'' pipe is going to double your trouble.
It will be far less hassle to spend the 20 minutes to swap DP's that fit nicley and don't leak.
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With the LDA disabled it makes under 100HP, so I figured a 2" exhaust or even a MK3 VR6 exhaust won't be too restrictive. The big exhaust valve will be hard wired to the LDA switch, meaning it'll always open whenever power is demanded.
But even with under 100HP I can see the back-asswards flow potentially being a problem with the valve in the way, so you may be right.
Physically swapping DPs is fine with me. I won't mind using the fender exhaust on a daily basis. Will switch to full exhaust only if I'm issued a VI or for emissions testing in 2008. Smoke (after cold start) is not a problem with the LDA turned down.
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Here's the cold smoke video as promised. I was holding the camera with my left hand and shifted/steered with my right hand. :D
Click here to watch 1619TD-Cold-Smoke-video-1 (http://media.putfile.com/1619TD-Cold-Smoke-video-1)
I rolled down the hill with the engine off and then started the engine & began videotaping at about the same time. This is about 5 seconds after leaving the front of my house.
6 seconds later I started accelerating and the "big bang" is visible. The smoke is cut down significantly after accelerating down the street. This smoke isn't as bad as it used to be during Oct - Jan. I wish I videotaped my cold-start smoke back then :lol:
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In most Canadian provinces,you only need one noise reduction device on the car.
A turbo (or two ;)) is classified as a noise reduction device. :D
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Here's the second video, also taken today. I did lousy camera handling this time. At the beginning you can hear how quickly the engine fires up.
Click here to watch 1619TD-Cold-Smoke-video-2 (http://media.putfile.com/1619TD-Cold-Smoke-video-2)
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The smoke isn't too bad.How long would you have to let it warm up for to be able to drive away with no smoke ?
Have you tried backing down the fuel.I get similar smoke (not as much though),when running lots of fuel and the engine is cold.Low timing will cause it too.I wonder if with the lower compression and added fuel you need a lot more timing ?
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Have you tried backing down the fuel.I get similar smoke (not as much though),when running lots of fuel and the engine is cold.Low timing will cause it too.I wonder if with the lower compression and added fuel you need a lot more timing ?
Yes we have tried these. I had a brand new set of OEM injectors (now roughly 3,000km on them), and another set of injectors with new aftermarket "GTD" nozzles on them. I also have a NA pump with unknown mileage and a TD pump with under 6,000km. We have tried pump timing ranging from 0.80mm to 1.21mm. We also turned down fuel all the way to the point where it felt like it put out 20HP and we also turned it up all the way. None of these combinations made a slight improvement in cold smoke. The cold smoke is likely unavoidable due to the low compression or according to chrissev's theory, the 1.9's prechamber cup port is not aligned 100% correctly on top of the 1.6 piston's notch.. I'm not sure if that is true. If I ceramic coated the head more thoroughly the big smoke may be reduced.
Re: your other question. Note that 0:21 to 0:23 (seconds) in the first cold start video there is a puff of smoke from a gear change. The TD continues to smoke like that until optimal operating temp is reached in about 15 minutes. The puff of smoke is more apparent after cold starting in heavy Vancouver traffic where there's a lot of stop 'n go driving. More apparent when starting in 1st gear after idling with low EGT. A few seconds later the smoke is no longer visible (from the driver's seat) while the engine is constantly under load or back to just idling.
As long as the water temp stays at or above 180 degrees F it's smoke free in all cases.
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Any more info on your compound setup, malone?
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Interesting idea. I'm not sure how much of a concern this is for you, or if there's a way around it, but it reminded me of something I read regarding vehicle modifications....
quote: "The majority of problems with exhaust systems after noise usually consist of loose, broken or missing parts. Your vehicle will be rejected for these reasons, as well as having a cutout installed (muffler bypass), if any part of the exhaust system is closer than 48 mm to any part of the fuel or brake system or any combustible material and is not protected by shields, or could burn an occupant while entering or leaving the vehicle.
The tailpipe must be terminated so that exhaust fumes are expelled beyond the outside perimeter of the vehicle, and the termination must not point upward."
I've seen lots of hot rods/muscle cars with straight pipes with a bolt on cap on the end, and a "T" to a full exhaust system. As far as I know, these aren't legal...so I would think having something that was even easier, ie just a dash mounted switch to go from full exhaust to out the fender, wouldn't pass either.
I could be wrong, and not trying to rain on your parade, but I would personally rather know about it beforehand than have to change it afterwards. :?
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Thanks for the heads up. I did go through Aircare twice and no one raised an eyebrow at my straight pipe w/ no muffler. The car was louder than average too. A couple employees did however on both occasions try to crawl under my car to check for the catalytic converter, which seemed to be their only concern.
You may be right that a switchable exhaust system may not pass. An exhaust pipe protruding out of the fender will definitely get their attention. Regardless, my next Aircare is in 2008 (assuming I keep the MK3 body) and I've decided to just "permanently" run one type of exhaust at a time. Passenger Performance may fabricate two complete systems; one routed like factory, and the other a straight pipe out of the fender. They can be swapped in a day when needed. I may run the fender exit exhaust daily with only two things temporarily stopping it: A VI from the police or Aircare in 2008.
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I've talked to the guys at aircare as well. Should be OK without the cat, as you've found, and they shouldn't be concerned about a muffler, as it isn't an emissions device. I brought it up more for VI reasons.
I'm swapping a 1.9td into a samurai, and was going to go straight pipe, but decided on a straight through muffler, just to look the part if/when I do get pulled over, which I think is bound to happen driving that thing around :cry:
I figured having an exhaust out the fender would draw attention as well, making the VI legality of it more relavent.
by the way, those twin turbo pics.... :shock: :twisted:
VERY COOL!! can't wait to see the outcome !
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Update:
I mentioned that a 52HP NA pump was swapped into my MK3 in January or February while the modified pump is supposedly going back to Giles for an upgrade. The engine still started up and ran like new, even after the abuses last Fall with the extensively modified LDA pump. However, this month I had problems with the water pump. Overheating occured and my cylinder walls are now scored. This is why I bought a 1984 Rabbit 1.6D a week ago to temporarily use as a daily driver.
On the bright side, the 1.6TD block was stock unlike the rest of the engine/car. It's unlikely the block + 020 transmission will hold up to the ultimate power with the upcoming boost + fueling increase. I've always been bugged thinking "we should have done something to the block at the beginning," now here's the chance. DV8STR's O2J transmission is also in the shop waiting to be installed.
The 1.6/1.9 engine had approximately 10,000km (6,200mi) on it until the coolant problem. We've gone quite far in terms of engine build so I don't want to flush it down the toilet. The power the 1.6/1.9 had with the modified pump was mind-blowing and I can see a lot more potential with better airflow/fuel flow. fspGTD also made my custom fuel nozzles this year and I've got to put it to the test! :)
Importantly, I received news that I landed a new permanent job within the RCMP. Finally! I've been waiting for that for almost a year. I will buy a new daily driver that will be at best mildly modified (we'll see :lol:), and the 1.6/1.9 project will be my second car/track racer.
Even though a daily driver will help me ensure the 1.6/1.9's longevity by not forcing to drive it daily while it should have received any maintenance it needs, we still need to put a little more effort in keeping it healthy this time around. The basic coolant issue was ridiculous and could have been avoided in the first place. The next engine build should be done properly with new water pump etc.
The 1.6 block may be bored out for 1.9L AAZ pistons, and custom rods installed, making it a 1.7L. The AAZ pistons are also better suited to my 1.9L TD head. We've seen andy2 bend his rods. To mate AAZ pistons to the 1.6 crank, custom rods are required, so TDI rods are out of the question. Also, I'm not interested in the 1.9 crank + TDI rods + 1.9 piston assembly. I prefer to retain the 1.6 crank, which may be nitrated or cyroed.
The new daily driver may be a TDI. I have the business of chip tuning TDIs so it's nice to have a demo TDI vehicle. I'm also going to shop around for a new home this year, preferably with a garage (currently don't have garage space). These are factors that may slow down the 1.6/1.9 progress this year only. However, finally having a garage will mean good things for my diesel vehicles.
My 1997 MK3 needs paint ($50 (http://www.vwdov.ca/forum/showthread.php?threadid=94417)) and suspension replacement (free, FK coilovers are under lifetime warranty), which could be done in the meantime.
BTW I still admire IDIs more than TDIs because of the simplicity and how effective they are with performance.
I'm debating on whether to keep my 1997 MK3 shell or sell it with a stock 1.6TD, and move the 1.6/1.9 to a clean German Rabbit. MK1s feel a lot more tossable; more fun to drive. The -600lb weight advantage is nice, too.
edit: I'd also like to note that during some hard (est. 170-190bhp) runs, my coolant tank spat out coolant even after replacing the tank and cap. It looks like that Raceware head studs and the 1.9 headgasket cannot hold the head and block together sufficiently. So a $75 USD copper headgasket and/or o-ringing the head and/or block will be a good idea to keep the motor solid.
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^ Holy long-winded post batman. :lol:
I've talked to the guys at aircare as well. Should be OK without the cat, as you've found, and they shouldn't be concerned about a muffler, as it isn't an emissions device. I brought it up more for VI reasons.
I'm swapping a 1.9td into a samurai, and was going to go straight pipe, but decided on a straight through muffler, just to look the part if/when I do get pulled over, which I think is bound to happen driving that thing around :cry:
I figured having an exhaust out the fender would draw attention as well, making the VI legality of it more relavent.
by the way, those twin turbo pics.... :shock: :twisted:
VERY COOL!! can't wait to see the outcome !
Actually, my 1997 Golf wouldn't pass without a cat.. they did check to ensure that I have it (I kinda do ;)), but they didn't bother to check for a muffler etc.
You're right about the VI so your post is valid about my switchable dual exhaust system idea. I guess it's still better to run one exhaust system at a time.. physically swap them if needed :)
Cheers,
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Great to get an update and hear about the job and plans you have for the future. Bummer about the cooling issue. Good luck on house-hunting, a garage was more important than square footage when I was searching! Probably similar for you...
On the crankshaft, I am leaning towards polishing, shot-peening, and cryoing, in that order. What experiences do people have with custom rods on high output VW Diesels? I have only talked to VW Gas guys and those rods hold up with just minor modding to a lot of power, but I imagine the BMEPs are much lower. Dunno, just wondering.
Keep us informed, you are a real inspiration. Any more information on the compound setup? I am leaning heavily towards that myself.
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edit: I'd also like to note that during some hard (est. 170-190bhp) runs,
is that what your 1.6td is running?!! :shock:
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Those are estimated numbers, I didn't have the chance to go on a dyno, but I'm confident in these numbers after being compared against a MK3 Golf VR6 (by racing & comparing consistent Gtech results). Anyway, it was real fast.. enough for me to want to keep the engine :) I'm selling my 3 diesel vehicles, this black MK3 Golf, the red 1991 Jetta 1.6TD, and the light blue 1984 Rabbit.
There will be no room to store these cars other than the TDI I'll be getting, but after I'm settled in a while after moving, I'll find a clean chassis to put the IDI engine back in. Maybe a MK1 or MK2 instead of another MK3.
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Great to get an update and hear about the job and plans you have for the future. Bummer about the cooling issue. Good luck on house-hunting, a garage was more important than square footage when I was searching! Probably similar for you...
Thanks.. $250,000 ($223,000 USD) will get me a 900 to 1,200 sqft condo or apartment in Langley, BC, which is a 1 hour 15 minute drive away from my work in Vancouver. Detached homes with decent garages are at LEAST $310,000 USD ea. in Langley. Homes in Vancouver are not cheaper.
I can find a townhome with a garage for $223k USD, but it's a very narrow 1-car garage. No elbow room. Lower mainland BC likely has the highest housing costs in Canada :roll: I have a few months to do house-hounting, though.
I could consider renting a small warehouse with a few people to store full-time project cars in, but even that may be expensive.. we'll have to see.
On the crankshaft, I am leaning towards polishing, shot-peening, and cryoing, in that order. What experiences do people have with custom rods on high output VW Diesels? I have only talked to VW Gas guys and those rods hold up with just minor modding to a lot of power, but I imagine the BMEPs are much lower. Dunno, just wondering.
Keep us informed, you are a real inspiration. Any more information on the compound setup? I am leaning heavily towards that myself.
Other than what I've posted before, I have no further information on the compound setup. The turbos I mentioned may not be finalized... finding the best sized compound turbos on paper is tricky.
Your order of crankshaft prepping sounds good. I'm curious as to know how custom rods affect BMEP.
Simon Cooper "tdi rs" used custom rods in his ~220whp mechanical TDI after bending stock rods. He did not mention any adverse effects from switching to custom rods.
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okay so 170-190 hp, do i even want to know where the torque is at?! :idea:
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okay so 170-190 hp, do i even want to know where the torque is at?! :idea:
Not much, around 190-210 ft-lbs to be conservative. My TD's torque peaked at approx. 4,000 RPM unlike a typical TDI at 2,100 to 2,500 RPM. Estimated 140hp at 4,000 RPM, climbing higher until the fuel cut-off point at 5,250 RPM.
I like the closer torque : HP ratio because it means I do not need to make impractical amounts of torque just to have adequate HP. My next TD setup may have torque peak during higher RPM. It'd be interesting to see if I can hold 250lb-ft at around 5,252 RPM for 250hp, but I'll still push the engine as far as it can go.
If my ~200 ft-lbs torque peaks at 2,500 RPM instead of 4,000 RPM and then quickly drops off (just like a TDI), I'd likely only have roughly 120hp. Depends on the rest of the torque curve.
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how much time and money has been put in to get these numbers? what do you think i could achieve as a semi serious diesel tuner? 110hp a possibility?
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Major components are as follows.. prices are in CAD:
Fuel pump upgrade: $950
GT20 turbo and exhaust manifold, both cermachromed: Roughly $1,000
Air/water intercooler conversion based on brand new OEM TDI intercooler: Approx. $500 total
Autometer gauge set (including oil temp, oil pressure, volts that I already bought years ago): $500 after discount.
Damaged 1.9L AAZ head: $300.
4-puck clutch, pressure plate, and lightened flywheel: Roughly $300 combined.
The PD130 intake manifold is valued at approx. $175
That's $3,725 total
Starting with a wrecked 1.6TD engine and including upgrades, including complete 1.9TD head rebuild, the costs were probably $4,000. Includes $265 USD for Raceware head studs, custom camshaft, etc.
Throw in $200 in misc. stuff, like headgasket, new timing belt, oil, fuel filter, etc.
That's a grand total of $7,925 CAD. Still a rough estimate. Seems like a hefty price tag. Also I was nowhere near the maximum power potential due to lack of intercooling, lack of fuel during high RPM, etc. I haven't bent my shot-peened OEM rods yet. Building on the stock block may suck in another $2,500 mainly due to AAZ pistons, coating, custom rods and crank work (not cheap). 2 new turbochargers for compound turbocharging is not going to be cheap either. I'm fortunate enough to receive sponsorship by Superior Fuel Injection for upgrading my fuel pump to a Stage 5 or so next time. I've only put 10,000km on my stage 4 fuel pump and I still need more fuel!
$8k CAD so far seems like a lot, but including the value of the vehicle shell it's not more than $12,000 CAD... which is still half the price of a typical low km 90HP MKIV TDI vehicle.
The MKV Jetta TDI will cost me around $30,000 CAD after taxes and I'm back to square one with 100HP :roll: but it's intended to be a warranteed daily driver (and my chip demo vehicle) so my IDI will be an evening or weekend racer/driver.
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how much time and money has been put in to get these numbers? what do you think i could achieve as a semi serious diesel tuner? 110hp a possibility?
To answer your second question, start by:
1) installing an intercooler.
2) installing a boost gauge and a pyrometer (tap in thermocouple pre-turbine).
3) upping your boost to 24 PSI or so if you have a T3 or K24.
4) upgrading your fuel pump and setting its timing to 1.05mm. Doing the fuel governor mod and turning up fuel IQ is decent, but there's still more than that.. i.e. upgrading camplate to 1.9. That should be enough for 110HP.
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sweet! i plan on getting intercooler and exhaust done next month, the intercooler is 21.75x6.5x2.5 and is 300cad from kinetic motorsport. The exhaust i plan on getting done at passenger performance. So thats a good start. Plus ill be getting a manual boost controller and uping the boost. Just need to figure out when to do the egt gauge install.
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Good idea on the exhaust upgrade, I forgot about that. Maybe PP can install the EGT thermocouple pre-turbo when you go in for a downpipe...
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thats what im hoping will happen, heck maybe ill even get them to install my intercooler while im at it...Intercooler, 2.5 exhaust, egt gauge!! Damn i'd be set then!
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Yep I can definately do the whole works for you, aftercooler installs and plumbing are my favorite.
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so whats that gonna cost me :P ?
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Downpipe, full mandrel bent exhaust, aftercooler piping, silcone adapters and boost clamps, egt install... Probably want to make a custom air intake and put a cone filter on there at the same time, Gonna be around $1200.
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thats it!!!! *** son you have a customer...next month that is, gotta make the money first :D Ya i know which exhaust ill probably be getting, i know the intercooler, so ya sweet.
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1) installing an intercooler.
2) installing a boost gauge and a pyrometer (tap in thermocouple pre-turbine).
3) upping your boost to 24 PSI or so if you have a T3 or K24.
4) upgrading your fuel pump and setting its timing to 1.05mm. Doing the fuel governor mod and turning up fuel IQ is decent, but there's still more than that.. i.e. upgrading camplate to 1.9. That should be enough for 110HP.
Hey, malone, is that really needed?! I got a little "scared" with that 24PSI (1.65bar!!) for "only" ~110hp! :|
What about with 1.0-1.2bar? How much power would you expect to reach (doing all the other mods and proper inj pump tuning) :?:
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Hey, malone, is that really needed?! I got a little "scared" with that 24PSI (1.65bar!!) for "only" ~110hp! :|
What about with 1.0-1.2bar? How much power would you expect to reach (doing all the other mods and proper inj pump tuning) :?:
24 PSI may not be needed for 110HP... you can turn down the boost until you find the most efficient spot (in regards to power/smoke ratio and EGT). 24 PSI / 1.65bar with a healthy stock T3 or K24 turbo isn't that excessive IMO.
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I dynoed 113hp with 0,7 bar. Stock Garret, intercooler, big exhaust and good pump
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24 PSI / 1.65bar with a healthy stock T3 or K24 turbo isn't that excessive IMO.
Yeah, my fear is more about the motor itself than the turbo :!:
What do you think? Are my concerns funded?
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thats it!!!! *** son you have a customer...next month that is, gotta make the money first :D Ya i know which exhaust ill probably be getting, i know the intercooler, so ya sweet.
I can fab quite quickly, its just natural for me 8) Pm me and we can work it out for ya.
HP,
24 psi is no danger zone for your engine I've had a few 1.6's running 30-35 psi on the stock turbo on a stock engine with only fuel and exhaust mods, NO aftercooler, with no issues. Yes I know thats way out of the turbos effeciency range bla bla but it just shows that you dont HAVE to have a aftercooler or worry about your engine at those boost levels. Remember that fuel=power, not boost, if you went and dissabled your wastegate you might hit 24 psi but you arent going to get much more power than you have now, but if you match your fuel for 24 psi of boost than hot damn she will scoot :D
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Right. :)
Just that 1.6L motors use to get a little hot. And I mean stock :!:
I wonder tuned up..
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I hear lots of people say their 1.6's run hot, I have neer had this issue, maybe get a different thermostat, hows your water pump?
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hey dude, don't forget you live in CANADA, land of 50F high for the summer.... we Amerkicans ya know we got that higher tempreture than you, ya know eh? :lol:
please don't get offended. :D
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hey dude, don't forget you live in CANADA, land of 50F high for the summer.... we Amerkicans ya know we got that higher tempreture than you, ya know eh? :lol:
please don't get offended. :D
hehe... np
ya mine runs hot when I give her. It skyrockets up to the 3rd tick from the right, and balances out at around the 4th tick after a few mins of cooling off. My other diesel was a whole lot different though... 1.6 mech lifters. That thing never seemed to get too hot, unless I was booting it on the highway. I'm going to have to guess thermostat/water pump being the culprits, and possibly having the smaller K14 turbo?
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Yeah man I know what you are saying hahaha, its cold here no doubt, I remember when I first got into diesels I was still living in san diego, I called one of my buddies in canada and I was liek dude its november here and its cold my diesel isnt starting as good as it used too, and he liek well how cold man, and I was like I dunno about 60 degree's hahaha he called me a whining ***.
Yes the k14 will definately make your engine run hotter, your oil temps especially, first thing I notice on the 1.9's when I put a bigger turbo on is the drop in oil temps.
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935racer, is you pm box full?
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I don't think my water pump has any problem. It's just hot in here...
35šC today.
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No, my pm box is only like 50% full.
35 clecius... damn I need to move back south. 8)
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so im assuming you got my pm?
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35 clecius... damn I need to move back south. 8)
And cross the Atlantic. :lol:
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malone have you done anything to your project lately any recent upgrades or dynos?
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Ha! :) I won't be spending much, if anything, on the IDI (machining & parts) yet as I have Three Big Expenses for 2006:
1) An engagement ring (bought 1 week ago).
2) A new vehicle (base TDI model with DSG, Platinum Grey, should pick it up this week).
3) A new home this Fall.
For now I'm selling all of my older VWs (already sold one of them) and will be driving just the TDI for a while. Then once I'm settled the IDI will be rebuilt and I will look for a clean VW chassis to drop the IDI engine back in.
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o well.... good stuff congrats and all that good stuff good luck!
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Got your PM.
Here is my attempt at Paint, straight up KG style. :P
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b382/dvst8r/Deck-mod.gif)
The Red circle is the the exhuast valve, the Blue one is the intake valve, the grey area's on either side are the area that has been relived. Of coures in real life they have uniform shape and size, as well as, they have a slightly differn't overall shape, size, ect..., but it will give you guys an idea. As Dave said earlier the relief is about .25mm-.5mm deep.
What do you think about this?
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/xavjetta/deck-mod.jpg)
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Still waiting...
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I don't know, I didn't do the head work, you will have to get Dave (935racer) to chime in. I would say they are excessive though, and the one side is supposed to be conciderably smaller then the other side. On your drawing they look equal. What I have down is not even close to scale, it was a lame at best attempt in paint to make a graphical representation of what was going on. Malone doesn't have that car on the road currently so mabey you could convince him to pull the head and take a picture or two of the head work. :wink:
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i even dont understand wich benefit it give...
Greetz, Benjamin
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Better flow under the head.
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(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/xavjetta/deck-mod.jpg)[/quote]
Like brett said, his computer paint photo is not very accurate, but its a hell of a lot better than I could do on the computer :? Don't relieve the head like you have pictured above. I wouldnt reccomend to anyone doing this unless you have quite a bit of porting experience and ultra steady hands and killer hand eye coordination. One thing you can do though is radius the edge of the aluminum head right before the valve seat, just dont hit the valve seat. So it will look somewhat similar to what you have painted above just don't let the bevels' edge stray more than 1-1.5mm wide. Do the intake ones first to get your practise down (preferably on a core head before you do it on your good one) than do your exhaust last, so you can do the best job on them as the bevel has most benefit on the exhaust side.
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Was that tested on the flow bench at all or a single change done dyno/g-tech tested? Not doubting it, just curious.
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Yeah I'll see if I can dig up some flow charts, I havent flow tested any IDI heads for a long time now, after I did all the research I just doccumented what worked well and where and I just duplicate it now.
I would like to RE-STRESS, the mod I mentioned above with the bevel around the complete radius is small, the bevel should not exceed 1-1.5mm.
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I imagine any more than you are talking about would be disastrous to the compression ratio.
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Exactly.
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I imagine any more than you are talking about would be disastrous to the compression ratio.
why? Its on the other side of closed valves....
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935racer: look at this:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/xavjetta/headjob.jpg)
What do you think about it?
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I imagine any more than you are talking about would be disastrous to the compression ratio.
why? Its on the other side of closed valves....
No the modification I was mentioning is on the deck surface.
X@V, this technique does work, but will drop the compression ratio quite a bit, If you perform this modification you MUST blueprint the displacement you have added and balance them across the cylinders. Blueprint the head stock, than try this method on a core head before doing it on your good one. If you do not have too much porting experience on your hands than you can try the same shape but let it wander no further than approximately 5mm from the valve seat, I would still reccomend beveling the edge just outside the valve seat, do the complete circumference of the circle and don't let the bevel stray more than 1-2mm. Whatever measurement you decide to take off keep it the same all the way around.
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I understand...
Before this operation, my compression was 390, 520, 520 and 420 :?
I changed the rings and one exhaust valve (it was leaking on the 390psi cylinder). A difference of 10-20PSI between two cylinders would not make a big difference, if I compare to before.
I will do it on a old 1.6TD's head tomorrow and I will shot you the result.
Where could I send my next head to have a good job, ans maybe pre-cup coating?
Thanks
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935racer: look at this:
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/xavjetta/headjob.jpg)
What do you think about it?
(http://www.donandmurph.com/pringles.gif)
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I understand...
Before this operation, my compression was 390, 520, 520 and 420 :?
I changed the rings and one exhaust valve (it was leaking on the 390psi cylinder). A difference of 10-20PSI between two cylinders would not make a big difference, if I compare to before.
I will do it on a old 1.6TD's head tomorrow and I will shot you the result.
Where could I send my next head to have a good job, ans maybe pre-cup coating?
Thanks
X@V, that is really poor compression test! Obviously you want to keep it as even as possible across all 4 cylinders, just as you would with your injectors, and just as you SHOULD with the airflow, although the VW factory seems to think otherwise... Worst intake manifolds ever. Speaking of which I should have my base model intake manifolds for the 1.6td ready in a few weeks, would you be intersteed in trying one?
As far as the head go's, I can do whatever you like, however you like it, but I would reccomend staying away from coated pre chambers.
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For the manifold, I can't use your's because I have a VNT17 (GT1749VA) turbo.
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935Racer:
What sort of intakes are you guys building? I'd be interested in seeing what you've got. The stock 1.6TD intake does fine for being in limited space as it is, but you're right, it's really limited. Got any sneak-peaks?
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I will post some pictures on the manifolds as soon as I get my next order of head flanges in, ETA 3 weeks unfortunately. They are tubular manifolds, the economy version, which is still far better than the stocker is just a single plenum with 4 runners, pretty basic but it is miles better than the stock manifold. The race one, well I am gonna let the pictures do the talking there, but if you think the "lehman" dual plenum manifolds used by audi rally teams are something special you are in for a real treat. :D
All the intake manifolds will require the turbo and manifold to be mounted upside down, its the only way to get super effecient airflow to the valves. This of course is no problem with my new tubular exhaust manifolds, which feature a narrow angle merge collector, pulsed firing order, and completely equal length runners.
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Would you do the head porting of my 1.9TD's head if I ship it to you?
I have two 1.9TD's head here.
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Yes I can do the porting for you. Porting isnt cheap though, and as much as I push headporting for vw diesel, the best bang for your buck is different manifolds. Oh and if some one gives me a cad of a vnt turbo inlet I will make some vnt manifolds, I'll get some flanges cut and make some vnt only collectors.
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Would you like to have the VNT17 flange pictures with all the informations?
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Yes very much so! I'd really like to make some vnt manifolds.
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If you do a manifold for my turbo, I will buy one!
I will send you the informations probably wednesday (I'll be working tomorrow from 7h30am to 10h00pm)
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No problem, I will most definately build you a manifold :D I am still waiting for some head flanges to get cut, but the sooner you get me the turbo inlet flange the less time I have to wait for those ones too.
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There is some interesting info here.
THIS POST IS 6 years old, so don't think I didnt know, I just wanted the young ones here to see what has been played with before.
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I wonder what this car would have done on a real dyno I would bet he was close to or already matching what Dave did down the road with basically the same engine but with a bigger turbo. Honestly it was absolutely huge turbo 50 trim to4e. I have one but I don't think it will ever find its way on to any of my vw diesels
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I could be off but I think it is the same engine that Dave had. I thought Dave *935 racer* got Malone's old engine to start with his big build.
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yeah it was i believe.
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just was looking at page 14 of this thread and it has tons of info that I am looking for. I sure wish the even younger crowd checks this out. Wealth of things already tested.
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thanks for bumping this thread...some good stuff here...
Regards,
Ken
1981 Rabbit Convert gasser converted to ALDA equipped ECO TD
1984 Jetta gasser converted to N/A 1.6D