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General Information => General => Topic started by: TimpanogosSlim on December 16, 2014, 11:17:50 pm
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I'll start by saying: I don't want to run my engine on pure junk. I understand that the greasecar system can result in some bad things for a VE pump over time, and that WEO has some stuff in it you don't want to burn in concentration, etc.
I don't even think i'll break even on the idea any time soon.
But the thought of burning waste crankcase oil, spent ATF, and even some old rancid vegetable oil, has an appeal i have been unable to shake so far.
So hear me out. I'm thinking about adulterating diesel or maybe B100 up to 20% with whatever might be free or cheap, but responsibly.
I figure there's a good chance i only really want to burn that stuff in the summer. The guys who do this regularly have a separate tank they keep the free stuff in, with heaters, and they start and stop on regular old dino diesel.
I am also not a mechanic (I'm a software tester!) so there is a limited quantity of this stuff i can acquire. Just my own cars, my friend's cars, etc. I may even do a complete flush of the ATF in my land cruiser, which has an A442F transmission with a capacity of 3 gallons. Not kidding. And it takes roughly 5 gallons to do a complete flush, due to circumstances.
Though i do know a shop owner, so i suppose i could go get WEO any time i feel like, provided he's cool with it and i have a clean way of retrieving it.
I have already managed to cheaply acquire a Frantz toilet paper roll oil filter setup in remarkably good condition on ebay for not a lot. Just needs a new o-ring and some TP.
My general plan is to get a 15-30 gallon barrel, a lift pump of some sort, a filter head that will accept the largest spin-on fuel filter / water separator i can find, and set up a rig in my shed.
In the summer, there will be more than enough time when the oil in the barrel is quite warm. It would be easy to set up a thermostat that only runs the pump when the contents are over a certain temperature. In theory i could run the whole rig on solar panels and a few golf cart or wheel chair batteries. From the bottom of the tank, through big diesel filter, then through toilet paper roll, and back into the barrel. Over and over until it runs reasonably clear, then into a 5 gallon can to be decanted into the tank right before filling up with diesel or biodiesel.
In theory, that kind of setup should take care of the water, carbon, metals, breading, taters, herbs, spices, etc in the feed stock and produce something that will burn with not much smoke (provided the WVO content is low).
How crazy is this idea?
What am i missing?
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You'd be wise to have a settling tank first, then transfer everything to a polishing tank. If you do it that way and only run it as a percentage then I really don't see any issue whatsoever running a mix. The settling tank will let a LOT of the suspended junk come out prior to it going directly in to your filters. A polishing system won't allow for thorough settling since there's always going to be fluid moving around.
Vegetable oils that haven't had the glycerin removed WILL gum up the engine over time. Waste motor oil / transmission fluid / hydraulic fluid don't have that issue.
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Not crazy at all Slim, People make money doing this but they do it different and you need to do differently in a few places from what I have experienced and done in the past.
1. Do you have room for a 55 gallon barrel? Volume will go down after time as the crud you mention, such as taters and breading settle to the bottom and you want to avoid that area when it comes to processing.
2. The Frantz filter may or may not get the finest fines out of the system I know this device has sold millions and was around when I was looking in the engine compartment as dad held me on the bumper. I even have one on my Rabbit to try and get the soot out of the oil but it still is very black. Not sure it would filter as well as a simple 2 micron filter on a flange in line with a pump.
3. Yepper, filter in the summer when warm will do. Paint the barrel black and that oil will heat up just fine in the sun. Let it sit several days to a week and the crap drops out as the oil heats and cools. Set some up in a gallon milk jug on to the barrel and watch the result. Literally clear on top and cloudy on the bottom in days. That is why you pull the oil off the top of the barrel and drain the dregs out the bottom.
4. Pre filtering or pre settling will go a long ways to make better oil. Those plastic 4.75 gal. cubies are great to just stockpile, let them set for a week then put it in the barrel for another. You don't pour it all in one place and expect it to settle out and then filter it. That would be way to easy.
5. So your pump idea is good and the solar power is a good green option to burning this fuel in the first place. I can't see a problem with the re-circulation idea if you really get the garbage to settle out and you decant the top off and dump the dregs. Most folks take it from one tank to another and filter in stages in between. Yeah this takes space.
6. So if you filter from the barrel to the diesel filter/water separator I don't know what the Frantz filter is going to buy you. Now if you filtered with the TP then the diesel filter/separator I could see that working. Most go from a 10 micron to a 2 and then spin the water out or heat it and boil it out.
Or are you thinking the TP is the 2 micron filter stage?
7. WVO or ATF will smell differently than diesel. You will never get rid of the KFC spices and Herbs. Thus keep the windows rolled up or you will be stopping at all the junk food places more often. I ran B100 from a place for awhile and it was well processed but still had the car smelling like french fries at the lights. Makes for some interesting conversations when you pull into a parking spot next to someone getting in their car. Hey man, is that car running on something that smells like fries?
8. Be Aware setting something like this up makes the work area very smelly. The guy I was buying veg oil from in Vancouver had a shed and a nice setup but his wonderful 350 K dollar home smelled like a dumpster area from the time you passed his boat in the drive to the back yard shed. You just can't stop that smell from going every where once it warms up. Maybe with a good soap and water wash all the time but that isn't what you want to be doing anyway.
Good luck on this. DAS
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DAS, thanks for your input.
4: Good idea. I can start stockpiling stock and letting it settle right now.
6: In theory the frantz filter is "sub micron" being a "depth" type filter. As marketed anyway, the chunky stuff will ultimately get stuck in the fibers of the bog roll. With enough passes i mean. Frantz says that a bog roll will also hold up to 6 ounces of water, but i figure that separating water is a job that is better performed by a more traditional filter. I hear that John Deere dealerships can sell me a 2 micron or less diesel filter and i plan to look into it, but i figure that the Frantz should be able to filter out the carbon and fine particulates in WEO, given enough passes through the filter. Am i wrong?
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Nice "HOW TO" DAS,
Just for 3 "Let it sit several days to a week ..."
If it`s dirty oil you need WEEKS,so I dont like to pay filters but I buy pressuse CF.
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My experience is single tank systems invariably end in problems, and you don't have a 'plan b'.
The scale of your operation is inversely proportionate to how much time and how often you spend working on it...
Save yourself some time and effort by starting in increments of 55 gal or bigger.
Never slurp form the bottom of the waste tank, and do not collect from sources of crappy (high solids) oil.
If you warm the oil, it will settle out faster, but convection will stir it up again.
My last system;
collect at restaraunts with a 325 gal IBC tote in the back of the truck, 3.5 hp gas suction pump or sump pump on inverter.
let that settle in the sun a few days
pump out from the top(leaving the dregs), gas pump to 3 of the sock filter bags...about 10 minutes.
send to storage tank.
Best if you have an inside man at the food place, they can drain the fryer through a shortening fiiter into cubes, and you have very little waste.
I looked at and touched so much oil doing this, I won't eat at many of the restaurants in town, and I barely like fried foods any more.
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I don't really want to play the biodiesel game and I'm not real excited about wvo. I might be able to source weo and watf but i haven't had that conversation with my shop owner friend yet
.:Sent by pneumatic tubes
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TimpanogosSlim, I understand the Frantz idea now that I was reminded that you are looking at engine oil here. Given that it was originally designed to filter oil I would have to agree that plugging that in the mix would serve the purpose you intend. Somehow I got all WVO ideas in my head and totally dropped the WEO or ATF and those are way different starter products. They will not have KFCs secret spices unless you drop a wing in the bucket.
This takes time and as much as you are planning an automated system in several respects there is still a lot of handling involved. Get yourself a pair of coveralls, I can't even begin to think how many pairs of pants I ruined or oiled just by moving a little bit of the clean or dirty stuff. Things I never thought of at first were related to pressure being created by pumping or just warming in the sun. Note to self: When the plastic cubie is really solid when you touch it, release the big cap slowly. The blurp that can come out is clean oil you really hate to loose.
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Yeah i am thinking that a holding tank should have a breather or expansion tank of some kind. Charcoal canister from a gasser maybe.
.:Sent by pneumatic tubes
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I don't have a convincing reason to treat wast oils of any source differently from one another.
lube oils may be a little harder to clean, as they are designed to suspend contaminants.
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Looks like the best option currently for 2um filtration is a CAT 1R-0749 at about $15 (holds over 2 quarts). Needs compatible filter head 280-2698 about $25.
You still need a conventional water separator in front of that. Any number of options including CAT 179-2949 which fits the same filter head.
.:Sent by pneumatic tubes
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Have you considered a centrifuge? If you're not doing WVO, you don't need the heaters... just spin the stuff and go.
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Centrifuges are great but it sounds like the up front investment is kinda high.
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Figure out how much you drive, the cost of diesel, the cost of your materials to effectively filter, etc.
I thought of running wmo, back in the day, but decided the inconvenience and spending my free time processing oil wasn't really worth it. It was smarter for me to pay at the pump.
-Todd
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I'd figure ~$400 for a Dieselcraft spinner, a boneyard gear PS pump and a .5hp motor.
My concern would be that the WEO particulate will not gravity settle in a reasonable time.
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A longer settle time would do it. A concern that I read about was the acids. Even a centrifuge can't get rid of them.
That being said, the guy that I bought my first diesel Rabbit from was a mechanic who had a pretty decent supply of waste oil. He and his buddies ran black diesel for years and only let the oil settle, then ran it through whole house filters. They said there were no issues, but obviously the ratios are key.
-Todd
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"Vegetable oils that haven't had the glycerin removed WILL gum up the engine over time. Waste motor oil / transmission fluid / hydraulic fluid don't have that issue."
I realize some people have had this problem with using poor quality WVO, but between my last 3 cars, plus a couple of others I have kept track of, the total of all them being just less than
400,000 kms, that issue has not turned up. Still have to see any kind of direct failure of any component from using it. Of course this from using a 2 tank system, and very good WVO to start with; no lard or WVO that has any real amount of water.
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Anyway, I guess i should have stated my objectives more clearly.
1: Minimal cash investment. No more than a couple-three hundred bucks, and less if i can do that.
2: Minimal manual labor. As automated as possible.
3: Stock should be transferred between containers as infrequently as possible to minimize mess.
The point that this will be more successful with a larger container is well taken. 55 gallon steel drums aren't hard to come by. But that raises the question of how easily i can acquire stock from a larger source.
Using the really large diesel filters from CAT sounds like a good idea to me. The conventional 10um followed by the 2um followed by a depth filter. "whole house" water filters often use a spool of cotton twine as filter media which is a depth filter just like the toilet paper filter i already got.
Settling is sensible but invites transfers from one tank to another which i want to avoid. It might be enough to have the pickup for the pump a few inches from the bottom of the tank.
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Ok, you provided clarification to what you want and how much time and money you care to throw at this task. Some of us over engineer on purpose, so you must know what that will look like in the end. Engineers already throw a factor of safety at whatever they do so to over engineer it might mean wasteful expense.
Some of my replies and others I think forgot you were dealing with a non veg oil substance. That will change the game and expense. I would go for two settling tanks minimum and if you can get a pump you can vary the rate on. That way you can go slow and get the end of the pump closer to the dregs without sucking them off the top. Ever siphon off oil from water. Do it slow and you will never see a drop in the oil. Do it too fast and it is all over in there.
Pouring the base oil into the drums can be done better with a hose of about a foot in length on the end of a filter. Press the hose to the inside of the drum when pouring in any new oil and it tends to stir less of the settled material back up into solution. Easy does it and time will be your friend. Slower pour less settling time. It just seems a long job but it really isn't.
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I'd also add a floating pick up. Stay as far away from the bottom as you can. Add a dirt leg with a valve to remove the junk.
-Todd
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Dirt leg? That's what I wear.
You might have to explain how this works to get the gunk out. That small hole at the bottom of the tank only comes in handy if you think about using it later. We had our 55 gallon drums set up on a rack so it was easy to have that valve on the side and a short pipe downwards to drain it later. Sometimes we got a good amount of good oil off with it and just let it set and skimmed it a day or so later.
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It's just a pipe with a valve at the lowest point of the tank. If everything settles to the bottom of the tank, open the valve and drain the nasty stuff every once in a while.
Same principle as draining a compressor tank, water heater, etc.
-Todd
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Here's a three stage settler I made for veggie. Plastic drums and pvc pipe.
Pour in five gallons and let it slowly drain into the system. As dirty oil enters at one end, clean comes out the other.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/gev57hfv9kygxkh/SteppedTanks.png)
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Now you can't get any more low tech and cost efficient than that. Simple, uses physical principles, no electricity and could be set up with a slow release of oil into system with a valve and it would be a set up and let it go arrangement. Just what he was asking for. Great going TylerD.
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If settling to remove stuff, a cone shaped bottom is a huge benefit. Not always cheap, but keep your eye out.
IMO IBC totes are the best thing going, they barely cost more than drums, are forkliftable, have native plumbing support, and are easier to see inside.
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What you mean an inductor tank like one of these?
http://www.plastic-mart.com/product/6650/60-gallon-inductor-tank-42066
I don't see those come up used very often. Good idea for separating out the sludge i guess.
Plastic totes, sometimes in galvanized frames, seem to be cheap and plentiful. And big.
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The 3 stage settler or cold filtering setup, one must make sure the temperature of the oil being poured in is colder than what's presently in the tanks, otherwise it rises up to the top and into the final tank with no dwell time in the other tanks.
If you have a floating pickup, a dirty leg is not really needed unless you have a lot of crud that must be drained often. If you are talking a few cups of water in a year, just leave it sit undisturbed in the bottom, not gonna hurt anything. Having a drain at the bottom is a big liability if that fitting ever leaks or fails. If I have to drain the bottom, I'd design it with a pipe that goes in from the top to bottom and use vacuum to suck it out
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Brewers use conical tanks with a valve on the bottom specifically to separate sludge (cake of dormant and dead yeast, what brewers in the german tradition call "trub"). With a quality full-flow ball valve i don't see what the liability would be, short of curious children working the valve, and i could just install a cap on the outlet and take off the handle.
Millions of homebrewers use cheap polyethylene conical tanks. The tank fitting itself is quite sturdy on these, most of them having been intended for storage of water-based fluids in an agricultural setting. They're designed for rough use. And it's pretty easy to get steel or brass threads to seal against HDPE.
Basically you're saying you don't trust the quality of the main selling point of the tank. The evidence appears to be that tank manufacturers thought of the issues you thought of too.
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Brewers use conical tanks with a valve on the bottom specifically to separate sludge (cake of dormant and dead yeast, what brewers in the german tradition call "trub"). With a quality full-flow ball valve i don't see what the liability would be, short of curious children working the valve, and i could just install a cap on the outlet and take off the handle.
Millions of homebrewers use cheap polyethylene conical tanks. The tank fitting itself is quite sturdy on these, most of them having been intended for storage of water-based fluids in an agricultural setting. They're designed for rough use. And it's pretty easy to get steel or brass threads to seal against HDPE.
Basically you're saying you don't trust the quality of the main selling point of the tank. The evidence appears to be that tank manufacturers thought of the issues you thought of too.
Did I say anything about quality and whether I trust it or not? There are varying quality for anything you buy. You pay for what you get.
Which has less probability of a spill? A conical tank with a ball valve vs a plain old 55 gal polyethylene barrel? Conical tank can topple over if the stand gave way= you have a major spill. You can inadvertently open the ball valve and have a spill. The ball valve tank threads could leak and you have a spill. Not a big deal and not that messy if you are brewing beer which is easy to clean up. Not so with WVO or WMO.