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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Dr. Diesel on November 05, 2006, 08:40:14 am
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Smokeydub and I are taking a nightschool class in diesel engine maintenance. It's all big truck engines, but there's some useful info for all engines. Most notably so far was a video shown about oil flow at different cold temperatures. There's no secret here, cold oil takes longer to reach everything in an engine than hot oil. The problem is compounded by thicker oil viscosities. Previous to seeing this video, I wasn't quite aware of just how bad the problem is.
The short story is these imperial oil engineers replace the valve covers on some engines with plexiglass boxes to permit viewing of the valvetrain in action. They chilled the vehicle overnight in a rediculously expensive drive-in refrigerator to -25˚C. At this temperature, it took 12 mins for 15w40 to reach the cam lobes, 8 mins for 10w30 and 4 mins for 0w30 synthetic. You could clearly hear bearing squeal during the 15W40 test.
The test was repeated at -35˚C (lower than most will ever see, admittedly) and the times went up.
Armed with this alarming information, I've built a little test oil heater. It's very simple, just a regular block heater welded into a 1.5" hole in the back of the oil pan. I filled the pan with the appropriate amount of oil and plugged it in. Within 10 mins, the oil temp rose from 40˚F to 170˚F where it appeared to stabilize. This, of course, is without the heatsink action of the oil pump pickup and the block itself-- just an open pan on the floor.
I still want to leave it plugged in for a few hours and make sure that nothing stupid will happen. I can't imagine it being able to overheat the oil, especially when bolted to an engine and ambient temps below 0˚C.
Regardless, I'll try and see what happens.
Another item of benefit I've recently acquired is a Moroso oil pressure accumulator. Simple device, a piston within a cylinder. Nitrogen charge on one side, engine oil on the other side. When the engine is running, oil pressure moves the piston, compressing the nitrogen. Shut off the valve to store pressure. Next time the engine is started, open the valve first. Wait for the oil light to go out, then start the engine with full pressure. No more engine-killing dry starts.
I think this device combined with a block and oil pan heater will make for an extremely long-lived engine.
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Wow... with that kind of info it's amazing that these engines even last as long as they do. I'd love to get full info on your experiment if you could :D
Where did you find that oil compressor deal? It sounds quite interesting
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I really pity the large engines used on standby power generators. They fire and instantly accelerate to 1800rpm and full load. Thankfully most have block heaters and live in a small shelter.
I worked on engine/generator controls for a cooper inline 8cyl 900hp@900rpm natural gas engine that had a full prelube system. Cooper recommended that the prelube pump be kept running at all times to "float" the crank and prevent it from sticking to the bearings. What was most remarkable about the whole thing was the huge difference in cranking speed with the prelube pump turned on, huge reduction in friction...
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I would add that old diesel oil thickens with age as it gathers soot and old combustion debris,so change it regular,also,oil flow on ohv pushrod engines takes ages for oil to reach rocker arms,ohc engines seem to have a better oil flow to the head.
Bert
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(http://www.moroso.com/catalog/images/23900_part.jpg)
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=13600
Those oil flow times were for an OHC engine!
I will update progress on this idea.
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Were for ohc engines :shock:
you lot need to come to the uk for the winter -8 MAX :wink:
Bert
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I've always known that cold starts are the worst for any engine, and people who like to jam on the gas right after a cold start are pretty stupid, unless they've got 0w30 which even still is pretty stupid...
Dr Diesel did you say that you installed an element directly into the bottom of the oil pan? I was considering doing that myself, and the only thing stopping me was... nobody else has done it, and not sure about the fire hazard, etc. I'm just really tired...
I've already got the marine battery/isolator/3000 watt power inverter so I can run it stand alone when there are no power sources
Other products I have run with great success in the winter are Wynn's Metaloil, and surprisingly slick 50 does a good job (some idiot ran an airplane on slick 50, then drained the oil out and took it out for a spin... but the motor ran??? wtf!!!) I still don't really trust teflon in a motor though, since it scores so easily.
Dr Diesel I have some oil extreme concentrate I'm going to be testing on the dyno soon. They claim I will gain 5-7 hp and reduce engine wear by half:
(http://www.oilextreme.com/images/enginesurface.jpg)
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just to add to my previous post, i was thinking of using an element from an oven but will probably be too big... I just need something to basically cover the whole entire oil pan (it will obviously cut warming times by a lot)
if the oil could be heated from -20C to 5-10C in less than 2-4 minutes, I will be a happy man!!! :)
again, the main reason that nobody really does this is the fire hazard issue. it would be a fire hazard for the reason that some people would leave it plugged in for too long, etc.
very interesting topic Dr Diesel. Thanks!
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Thats why it makes me sick to my stomach when I see people at school start up their car and then leave literally 2 seconds later.....
8 minutes for 15w40 wow! I wonder how much a block heater would help. It would be interesting to see times for some warmer temperatures and compare the time it takes for proper oil distribution.
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Reason # 52 I need to move back to southern California. :lol: I use a block heater in the winter on cold days (0degrees celcius and below), you feel a huge difference in engine warm up and starting/cranking.
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i put the (regular coolant frost-plug) block heater in the back wall of the oil pan near the drain plug. The floor of the oil pan might be better, but I was concerned about ground clearance issues. The last thing I want is to have a raised manhole cover or frozen cat turning my heater into a 1.5" drain hole! As you probably know, a block heater element isn't much bigger than the end segment of your thumb. A stove element sized unit would probably evapourate the oil in a matter of minutes.
I will try cooking it for a longer time on tuesday just to see what happens. I have a feeling it won't get a whole lot hotter than 170F. In a bucket of 2" deep water the temp maxed out at 184F. Somebody said they have some sort of internal temp regulator, which would be handy, but I don't really believe it yet.
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well Dr D if you say that the oil will evaporate in a matter of minutes, that is exactly what i want to hear! :lol:
Basically I want to be able to go to my car, hit the glow plugs, and switch on the element inside of the oil pan and not have to wait 10 minutes for the oil to heat up. I would not have the connector stick out of the bottom of the pan, but probablywhere you have yours sticking out (at the rear of the pan where it's safer). I'm mainly looking to decrease wear on the engine, and i believe this will work perfectly :)
It's nice that i have a few 1.6's lying around that i can pull the pan and do some testing now, with cold oil in the pan to see how long it takes to warm up, and take a look at what the oil does as it is heating up, and also measure for clearance issues before trying it on my motor :)
as of now i'm thinking that a toaster oven's element might be small enough to fit inside the sump :) we will soon find out!!! plus i could use the temperature dial to keep it on low if i just want to keep it warm :)
btw, any price info on that moroso oiling system?
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(http://www.moroso.com/catalog/images/23900_part.jpg)
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=13600
Those oil flow times were for an OHC engine!
I will update progress on this idea.
When you open the valve to fill it up your oil level will be low, or do you overfill your oil to compensate for that? I like the idea though.
I never would have thougha cam could run for 12 minutes without oil and not be junk. I have a block heater and an oil pan heater on my TDI :D
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ohc engines seem to have a better oil flow to the head.
Funny that, they have always given much more cam trouble due to bad lub than OHV engines... notorious for it, esp. if left idling for minutes at a time before moving off.
A very powerful heater will sizzle the oil a round it and not heat up the erst of the oil in a couple of minutes - you DON'T want a heck of a powerful element! If it's 'that' cold a day, give it plenty of time while your're cleaning fof the screens and things maybe
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I use a magnetic oil pan heater that pops onto the bottom of the pan.
Worked well enough when I was up in Yellowknife last winter for a few weeks, and I move it from vehicle to vehicle as need be. In Vancouver one has little need for a permanent block heater.
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But those 12min times were for a huge truck engine, no? Our VW diesels have the oil pressure sender on the end of the cylinder head (at least my Rabbit does), so we know exactly when we have pressure in the cam bearings. It does take several seconds for the light to go off on a cold morning, but using synthetic oil in the winter helps that. Do the later cars not have the sender on the head?
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I'm a little sceptical about those oil engineers:
My toyota would start fine at -25 unplugged, and the oil pressure gauge moved just as fast as normal...faster than it built pressure after an oil change. 10-30 oil and pressure sensor in head BTW
They must have had a pretty good battery and starter to start at -35. None of my vehicles would do much more than click at that temperature (when the dog tangled his leash in the extension cord and unplugged them.) At -35 and below, you have to rev it up before dumping the clutch -in nuetral- or the thick tranny oil will stall it out. Then do it again with the tranny in gear and transfer case in nuetral.
My vote is for regular block heater, or even 2 of them. Magnetic heater on oil pan if you need to. Emergency heat for cold starts from propane torch aimed at the exhaust manifold for 10 minutes. I've seen a few bulldozers with chimney setups around manifolds so you can shove a tiger torch in there for a while.
Another note, our Honda 1.3 didnt have room for a block heater in the casting. The factory heater was a bare heater element that strapped to the exhaust manifold. I bet you could do the same for cheap on any car with the heater element out of an electric kettle.
I currently have a $29 200 watt magnetic heater stuck to the block under turbo, seems fine for vancouver temps and hasn't fallen off yet.
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Mine 1.9TD in my Jetta 97 start without blocheater without problem at minus 45 celcius running with Mobil 1 5w50 oil. (Excluding wind factor, this doesn't affect engine, only humans and animals.)
Its ran 520 000 kilometers without any change on the engine (turbo, head and bloc is original) and didn't drink more tan 1 pint of oil in the interval of 24 000 kilometers of abuse (I drove it like if i was solen it).
The important is the maintenance. Injectors remplacement after 250 000 km, when the timing belt is replace be sure the timing is set correctly. And for cold start all glowplug are working.
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Only my old JohnDeere 2120, Massey Fergusson 165, Massey Fergusson 699, Oliver 1370, Universal 1340DCT and my Valtra need to be pluged before minus 5 celcius :lol:
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Don't warm the turbo, warm the intake manifold :lol:
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Oil pressure is one thing, oil flow to the cam lobes is quite another. Most engines will make oil pressure far quicker due to the thick oil in cold weather, provided the oil pump hasn't lost its prime. The problem is providing lubrication to areas not fed by pressurized galleries. The cam lobes are lubricated only by leakage from the lifter bores and the cam bearings. Thick oil doesn't leak from the bearings near as quickly, thats why oil pressure is much higher when the engine is cold, so the cam lobes can run dry for quite a while at startup.
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Interesting subject... I use an oil accumulator on my Audi race car (SCCA club race). It came with the car, but the PO firmly believed in guaranteeing full oil pressure even in the tightest of turns on the track. The 5 cyl's have never really had oiling issues, but you can never be too sure, I guess...
I believe mine's made by accusump and it sits on the passenger side footwell. It's got lines going from a sandwich plate on the engine that tee's into the remote oil cooler lines.
The accumulator seems to do its job fine, but the thing that throws me off is that mine has a manual valve on it. I have to remember to open the valve before going onto the track...and I'll have to admit that I've forgotten sometimes. The other part is that it's hard to tell what the oil level should be when you change the oil.
Are you talking about using the accumulator as a "pre-oiler"? If I shut mine off at the valve @60 psi, it'll hold that until the next time I open it. Presumably, you could open the valve just as you start the engine to force oil pressure up, right?
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Presumably, you could open the valve just as you start the engine to force oil pressure up, right?
Sounds like that's what he means
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AMSOIL has an oil Pre-Charger. It has been out for about a year now. AMS-Oiler (https://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/amk.aspx)
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Looks like a neat system... and quite a bit smaller than the 1.5 quart Accusump on mine. Much easier to remote mount in the engine bay.
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Nobody has answered the oil level question do you way over fill? or so you let it run right on the bottom of your dipstick once your accumulator is "charged?"
I don't like the thought of either one...
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Jackbombay...can't say I've exactly figured it out yet. I normally figure in the normal oil capacity then add the capacity of the accumulator plus some for the oil cooler/lines. Not very exact.
I can't accurately check the oil level when it's running and I'm not exactly sure if the accumulator is 100% full when I rev it and shut the valve before shutdown. With the valve shut and the engine off, the level isn't low, I do know that...
I definitely don't want too much oil in the system for the crank to whip into a froth, but I'm not exactly sure how to tell what's "right".
That all said, I've run the car like this for 3 years and the PO ran it like that for another 5 years. Remember this is a racing application and the 5-cyl's are known to be tough as nails... Perhaps Accusump would have more info.
Don't the nascar guys use a gear driven pre-oiler before they start their motors? Kind of a neat idea as well... Back to the original ideas though, it would seem that some method of heating might work the best to lower (edit) the viscosity...
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of heating might work the best to raise the viscosity...
lower? :)
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i would add the regular amount of oil plus the capacity of the accumulator and lines. Check the level with the accumulator charged and shut off.
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Would using a small hydrolic pump (or other) plumbed into the pan and head (possibly oil pressure sender port) be beneficial for priming the engine? Or does the engine need internal pressure created?
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I think that a small oil pump would be most beneficial for preventing dry starts. All you really need is a 'primed' engine, meaning that you get less metal on metal action while cranking your cold motor to start.
http://www.emp-corp.com/html/contact/faq/ look at the bottom of the FAQ... they are working on an electric oil pump to prime the engine, and to lessen the load on the engine. Couldn't find any info on their electric oil pump .. :(
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Does anyone know how much power a block heater takes?
I live in an apartement and I can't plug the car when it's very cold. I was thinking of welding a block heater to the back of the oil pan like Dr.D did and using an inverter on the battery to power the block heater for a few minutes before starting the engine. I have a very good battery (1100 amps AC Delco), I'm not worried of draining it. I'd use an inline fuse just in case something goes wrong and a switch to turn it on and off.
Let's say it's a 200W heater and 12.6V being normal battery voltage. 200W/12.6=15.87amps.
A 200W heater would need 15.87 amps to heat up. Pretty good, my stereo systems pulls more than that and I can listen to it for a few hours with the car off.
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for a few minutes before starting the engine
But would just a few minutes at 200W do the job? A quick guess knowing that an electric kettle is 2,000W and takes waht? about 3 minutes to boil a 1.5 litres of water.. maybe 5 or 10 minutes to get the oil up to 50 or 60?
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I think this (http://cgi.ebay.ca/12-volt-gear-driven-transfer-pump-for-oil-diesel-new_W0QQitemZ300046367853QQihZ020QQcategoryZ26449QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)might fit the bill, maybe too high GPH though
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well I still adamantly believe that having an element directly inside the oil pan, directly touching the oil, will be the trick. I'm not too worried about boiling the oil because it wont be on the hottest setting. It's pretty hard to even boil cooking oil with the large elements deep friers use.
2 minutes with that type of setup, and your oil would be really really runny, easily flowing into spots it would not normally flow to under cold conditions. Hook up a remote control to turn the system on and make it more efficient. By the time you get to your car, your oil is pre-warmed.
i like that gear driven oil pump, but you still need to get a motor to drive it... could possibly use a cordless drill i suppose, but a lot of work.
black smokin diesel, i strongly suggest you get a marine battery and an isolator. stick the marine battery in the back, and use that for your heating purposes. its not a wise idea to draw from your cranking battery like that... on really cold days you'll need all of the cranking power you can get to turn over your cold and cranky motor.
once i get an oil pan to do some experiments in, i will see what works/doesnt. and find some sort of timer for the remote system. :) and i may even just use the element from a hot water kettle. remember that we don't need to 'boil' the oil, just bring it up to around 5-10C to lessen the wear.
it wouldn't even be a bad idea to heat up the oil in the spring/fall temps or cold summer nights either.
BTW I have peltier elements that are 350W rated... wonder how they would work.. :) only good till around 100C though... But they could generate electricity from the hot oil pan hehe
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Couldn't you wire in a shut off switch for when the oil reaches a certain temperature? I'll probably go with one of those magnetic heaters and just stick it on the pain and use a timer
Also, that pump states it's 12v, wouldn't that imply that is is electcially driven?
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Here are a few pictures of the pre-lube pump that I made for my 2.0 TD Audi engine going into a Syncro Vanagon.
I got an electric brake booster pump from a school bus, this pump supplies hydraulic pressure to the brake master cylinder if the engine stalls. Paid $25.00 for it at the wreckers.
I tested it with 10/40 oil and it pumped great. It is bolted to an aluminum plate that I have drilled so that the oil filter fits on the back side. (The other filter is for my tranny that is pressure lubricated)
I have put a fitting in my oil pan and will run a flexible hose to the pump suction side and one more hose from the filter to the block where the oil pressure sending unit fits. I will mount it fairly low so that it primes easy.The driptray will catch the oil when changing the filters.
You don't have to make it this fancy, just put it on an aluminum block and run 2 nipples from the back.
Just connect it through a relais to a push button on the dash.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/itzdshtz/DSCF1594.jpg)
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/itzdshtz/DSCF1595.jpg)
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now that is good.... what kind of schoolbus was it?
my oil heater experiment panned out (hah hah... :roll: ) like this:
from 50F the block heater took it up to 220F in one hour. That was as high as my temp gauge read so I unplugged it. With a block and oil pump pickup in the equation, it would take longer to reach that temp if at all.
I bolted this pan onto my passat's new engine. I'm going to use a digital block heater timer to make sure that it kicks on only 20 mins before I need the car, and shuts off after that point if I'm delayed. I don't think it'd be a good idea to leave it on longer, or to use a hotter heat source. This little block heater bubbles the surrounding oil as soon as you plug it in.
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Cool idea to use the brake booster pump. How common are those? My old '77 GMC 1 ton had a hydraulic accumulator to hold pressure for the same purpose, but I dont recall any 12V pump.
There are people selling 12 volt pre-lube pumps :
http://www.pre-luber.com/preluberkits.htm has a nice looking setup with a computer to control pre-run and after run times. $$ though
My experience with block heaters is that they take at least a half hour to do much warming up. I think you could easily kill your deep cycle battery by over discharging it. Plus you would have quite a load on your charging system to charge your cranking battery and the depleted marine battery.
How about one of those little $250 portable gas generators...plug in the block heater and fire the generator a for a while.
If you are serious about being able to preheat your engine away from AC power, you need one of these: http://www.espar.com/htm/Specs/water/D4Wspec.htm its only 10" x 6" x 3" I cant find any prices online, bet it isnt cheap. Webasto also makes automotive market diesel fired heaters.
My grandfather used to tell stories about taking a roasting pan of hot coals out of the wood stove and putting it under his model T in the mornings. So use a barbeque burner under some kind of steel cover? Slide it under there and 'fire up'. Be a good way to find out if your IP has developed a leak.
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Couldn't you wire in a shut off switch for when the oil reaches a certain temperature? I'll probably go with one of those magnetic heaters and just stick it on the pain and use a timer
Also, that pump states it's 12v, wouldn't that imply that is is electcially driven?
yes sorry... that yellow thing looked like some sort of filter... hehe was really tired
bubbles in the oil isn't too bad for it. as long as the oil sump is deep and the heat source is deep as well. that way the hot oil will rise and warm up the colder spots.
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i personally am in favour of using a diesel burner to warm up my engine... its just the way to go. Wonder how long it would take to heat up the motor?
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It was an early eighties bus, can't remember what make.(Bought it a few years ago)
I also bought a pump at the same time from I think a 3 ton Ford truck with hydraulic brakes and there are some numbers on it, maybe you can trace where it came from: Bendix 18519-HG25
If you look at the mastercylinder ( looks like a bigger version of the GM hydraulic booster) you can see it bolted to the booster part.
It has a check valve build in to it, so that it doesn't spin backwards when your engine runs
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REgarding th ediesel burners (like webasto or espar) it wont' take too long ,perhaps half to 3/4 of an hour unless it is below -20 outside to get the car up to full operating temp. I think both the smaller units are over 15,000btu's and since they heat an circulate the coolants it gets things toasty fast. It's on my TDI wish list so I never have to scrape the car off again. The other thing is you can run it to get the temps up while you are driving for a much faster heat up that way too.
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Don't the nascar guys use a gear driven pre-oiler before they start their motors? Kind of a neat idea as well... Back to the original ideas though, it would seem that some method of heating might work the best to lower (edit) the viscosity...
From my experience the NASCAR boys use a dry sump system and use an external pump that actually heats the oil and circulates it prior to starting. They want the engine above 150 deg. F before starting. They then keep the car plugged in while it sits on the starting line before a race/practice.
VelocityConservation
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driving the car with cold thick 15w40 oil is probably not a good idea. i love people who say you should drive your car right away... its pretty much just an emissions gimmick.
of course the main reason that the car is heating up faster is because of the added friction from not having enough circulating oil lube the motor... i don't know if i really like that idea...
don't forget that newer tdi's come with about 3 glow plugs inside the coolant to warm it up about 2-3 minutes faster. Bigger battery... bigger alternator... and the plugs only last about 4-5 years... maybe...
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i love people who say you should drive your car right away... its pretty much just an emissions gimmick.
Not true, there are several reasons..
Leaving a car idling to 'warm up' is one of the worst things you can do, as many manufactiurer's pont out. Por oilflow to the top-end and condensation are two reasons...
Holding the engine at about 2,000 rpm 'is' recomended - but only in preference to 'idling'. It ensures oil is pumped up to overheard camshafts, and stands a chance of warming up quicker..
Driving away slowly and carefully, putting a nominal load on the engine, ensures it warms up quicker and clears out any condensation from cold running, as well as getting to sufficient revs to pump oil 'all' around.
Obviously high loads or high revs too early when oil or water is still cold, isn't a good thing.
That 'used to be' the manufacturer's recommendations very often, maybe times have changed...
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i can think of no one who babies their cars to 2k rpm from a cold run though, and therefore its still a gimmick to me. we're only talking about 4-5 minutes for -10C and below here people... are your lives that rushed??
if you're running synthetic, then yea i can see it working as synthetic stays free flowing until around -40C or so. high end dealerships will provide really good synthetic oils to their customers, and in that case they can drive away when cold.
i still believe that a car needs to run at least 1-2 minutes when below 0 regardless of type of oil, but then again that's just me. realizing that your car warms up faster because of the friction has to make you think...
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of course the main reason that the car is heating up faster is because of the added friction from not having enough circulating oil lube the motor... i don't know if i really like that idea...
Is it the increased friction or is it the sizable increase in fuel dumped into the engine when people zip off while cold? I'd actually tend to think the latter, personally. That burning fuel is quite hot, especially when you burn richer (Cold start systems, heavy feet, etcetera).
Also, a /cold/ engine block, pistons and other such things are going to have looser tolerances than the same block, piston and internals when they're up to temperature. Your normal forces are going to be reduced, resulting in reduced friction compared to the same pieces run non-lubricated when hot. It's when these pieces warm up that lack of lubrication becomes critical, in my opinion. I feel that this would be especially noticeable in aluminum cased/pistoned engines, but I don't think that there are many diesels out there with such things.
This looser tolerance explanation was also given to me as the reason why diesels, especially older diesels, are so much noisier when they're cold than once they've warmed up; you have all that tolerance to allow for piston slap, rod rocking, and everything else that produces noise in an engine, and because of the higher sustained temperatures the tolerances have to be looser at all temps below operating than a spark-ignited engine's.
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Back in the 70's I spent a lot of weekends crewing with friends fooling with stock car racing (not exactly NASCAR). Our engines were small block Chevy's and the piston of choice was the TRW forging. That piston used an alloy that expanded a lot, we'd typically use 6 thou to 7 thou clearance -- less was better -- you'd support the top ring better and make more horsepower longer -- but going tighter made warm up real critical...if you gave a cold engine too much fuel the piston would expand while the block was still cold which would cause the skirts to skuff/collapse ...time to rebuild. These little diesels have amazingly tight piston clearance ... I keep the rev's up for oil flow but keep the engine very lightly loaded to keep the heating rate slow enough so the block has a chance to catch up until the engine can establish normal running clearances. I'm careful to do this in NC where it doesn't really get very cold ... but I suspect it's even more important where many of you live ... a hot piston in a cold bore with 1 thou of design clearance is a bad idea. I don't just let it idle for the reasons given above by others but I'm sure careful to keep the fuel down until I have normal temperatures and normal clearances. Just my 2 cents don't really have any ultra cold experience.
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Back in the 70's I spent a lot of weekends crewing with friends fooling with stock car racing (not exactly NASCAR). Our engines were small block Chevy's and the piston of choice was the TRW forging. That piston used an alloy that expanded a lot, we'd typically use 6 thou to 7 thou clearance -- less was better -- you'd support the top ring better and make more horsepower longer -- but going tighter made warm up real critical...if you gave a cold engine too much fuel the piston would expand while the block was still cold which would cause the skirts to skuff/collapse ...time to rebuild. These little diesels have amazingly tight piston clearance ... I keep the rev's up for oil flow but keep the engine very lightly loaded to keep the heating rate slow enough so the block has a chance to catch up until the engine can establish normal running clearances. I'm careful to do this in NC where it doesn't really get very cold ... but I suspect it's even more important where many of you live ... a hot piston in a cold bore with 1 thou of design clearance is a bad idea. I don't just let it idle for the reasons given above by others but I'm sure careful to keep the fuel down until I have normal temperatures and normal clearances. Just my 2 cents don't really have any ultra cold experience.
basically explains why you need to have a light foot on a diesel when cold. most new cars have tight piston clearances now too. you will start to wear the bore and make it oval if you drive it cold without lubrication. Yes the car will heat up much faster because of the added heat from the burning fuel, but you still need to have a very light foot otherwise you will warp your head by heating it too fast, or even damage your possibly oil starved turbo. remember we're talking about -10C weather here... anything above 0 is pretty much ok, but you still need to drive careful until up or near operating temp.
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somebody asked earlier what the wattage of a block heater is. (remember the origin of this post? hehe) Mine says 400W.
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We use a couple of products to accomplish both on our truck engines.
http://www.kimhotstart.com/kimhotstart/sub.aspx?id=3826 for our coolant/oil preheaters. Check this page for more on just the oil heaters: http://www.kimhotstart.com/kimhotstart/sub.aspx?id=3814#LOH
We have an option for oil prelubers that are attached to the starter. http://www.prelub.com/index.html They work off a small pump on the front of the starter that pressurizes the oil system to a minimum pressure before the starter will engage. When starting the unit, you turn the key to the start position and hold until the engine starts. It's as close to foolproof as you can get for this application. They don't make anything for a VW diesel, but if you use a small electric pump, you could hook up a similar type of system with a relay and a pressure switch.
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found this on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1-OIL-PAN-ENGINE-BLOCK-HEATER-9845_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33613QQihZ005QQitemZ150061705915QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
probably a hundred times safer than a direct element in oil. 1500 watts should suffice, and not even make my 3000 watt inverter flinch. :twisted:
once i do some oil flow tests, i'll get to see what 1 minute of this thing does to oil at -10C or so.
forgot to mention. I will be finding a 1" nut or something, and welding that straight into the pan as a mounting point for the oil heater, as obviously its much bigger than the oil pan bolt on our comparatively miniscule diesel engines. :lol:
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1500 watts should suffice, and not even make my 3000 watt inverter flinch.
If you're going to run this thing from a 12v battery, why not use a 12v heating element? That way you get rid of the losses/inefficiencies of the inverter. Duraterm glow plugs would make a good heater, VW uses them immersed in coolant in the TDI as supplimental heat, you can too. Half a dozen glow plugs would pull the same current as the 1500watt heater (~100-125amps) and require a bunch less wiring.
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1500 watts should suffice, and not even make my 3000 watt inverter flinch.
If you're going to run this thing from a 12v battery, why not use a 12v heating element? That way you get rid of the losses/inefficiencies of the inverter. Duraterm glow plugs would make a good heater, VW uses them immersed in coolant in the TDI as supplimental heat, you can too. Half a dozen glow plugs would pull the same current as the 1500watt heater (~100-125amps) and require a bunch less wiring.
you know... that is a pretty good idea! only thing im worried about is the fact that the glow plugs get super hot... i'd have to run some tests :)
yeah newer tdi's have bigger batteries, and the glow plugs in the coolant only last a few years so I hear... but that is in coolant, and that is running them for 5 minutes and more during cold running to warm up faster. using them to decrease oil viscosity during cold starts for maybe 1-2 minutes would seem harmless.
i will still be using my inverter to power small appliances, and recharge my laptop etc. very useful tools!
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Why not have the glow plugs cycle on and off to increase their life? Or hook them up with a pump so that the cold oil keeps the glow plugs cooler
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Why not have the glow plugs cycle on and off to increase their life? Or hook them up with a pump so that the cold oil keeps the glow plugs cooler
i'm wondering if using the regular vw glow cycle would be sufficient... remember all this is for, is to decrease the viscosity of the oil at low temps. i guess the plugs could stay on as the car warms up a bit... that would really get things movin :) and make my new motor last a really really long time (once its complete of course...)
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Armed with this alarming information, I've built a little test oil heater. It's very simple, just a regular block heater welded into a 1.5" hole in the back of the oil pan. I filled the pan with the appropriate amount of oil and plugged it in.
Great idea, but labor intensive. I bought a thirty dollar Kat's oilpan warmer several years ago, and it's kept my oil warm ever since. Cheap, easy to install, and excellent quality. Great idea, though.
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I use a magnetic oil pan heater that pops onto the bottom of the pan.
I used one a couple of times, until it fell off while I was driving down a dirt road. That sucked.
As for the accumulator, fantastic idea. I'd eliminate the ball valve and install a 12V ANCO solenoid (expensive) valve, though. Then you could operate it from inside the car with a switch. I think I'd also want to insulate the tank from engine vibration, too.
i just got a price on the valve- Asco 12VDC normally closed, viton seals, good to 350 degrees, 1/2 pipe, $128.00.
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I bought a thirty dollar Kat's oilpan warmer several years ago, and it's kept my oil warm ever since. Cheap, easy to install, and excellent quality. Great idea, though.
Do you happen to know to what temperature the heater will bring the oil on a below-zero celcius day? After seeing that video, I personally don't want to settle for anything less than within 20 degrees of engine operating temps for startup.
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I bought a thirty dollar Kat's oilpan warmer several years ago, and it's kept my oil warm ever since. Cheap, easy to install, and excellent quality. Great idea, though.
Do you happen to know to what temperature the heater will bring the oil on a below-zero celcius day? After seeing that video, I personally don't want to settle for anything less than within 20 degrees of engine operating temps for startup.
video you say? I would like to see a video on the oil flow!
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it was presented in class. i'll look for it on the net.
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much appreciated :)
i really do love this quest for the ultimate in wear reduction on motors. motors in warm climates such as australia go for much more money since they wear much less. i dont really care about that though.. i just want longetivity of my motor (its bad enough that i drive it really hard... dont need any extra wear from lack of lube on cold days)
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Do you happen to know to what temperature the heater will bring the oil on a below-zero celcius day? After seeing that video, I personally don't want to settle for anything less than within 20 degrees of engine operating temps for startup
Hot enough I can't put my hand on it for long (seven degrees below this morning, I checked).
I'm fine with it. I don't EVER plug in during the summer months, so I'm confident it's plenty warm. Besides, I'd much rather trust a Kat's or Moroso pad heater than something never intended for that purpose. I don't have time or inclination to cobble up something in my garage/ spare time. But ingenuity is what made America great- if you like to do it, do it.
As for the accumulator, I love that idea summer and winter.
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video you say? I would like to see a video on the oil flow!
Forget the video, grab a 1 litre bottle of oil and throw it in your freezer. When you take it out, remove the cap and turn it upside down and wait. I first got a practical demonstration of this in Quebec on a New Year's Day when it was -35 F. My engine would barely turn over and wouldn't start. Tried this with a bottle of oil I had in the back. No flow. End result was a timing chain that jumped two teeth. Had to turn the distributor to get it started.[/quote]
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cobbling! who is cobbling?
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cobbling! who is cobbling?
Oh, hell. No offense meant. Where I come from, "cobbling" refers to fixing something ordinarily not considered "fixable". But the term has gotten me into trouble before. Sorry.
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cobbling! who is cobbling?
Oh, hell. No offense meant. Where I come from, "cobbling" refers to fixing something ordinarily not considered "fixable". But the term has gotten me into trouble before. Sorry.
You really meant prototyping, right? :D
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none taken, of course. I used to work with a card-carrying redneck (he really did have a redneck card!) who would literally cobble things together, with the utmost pride in the cobblation. The more rickety-duct tape-mismatched hardware-cut 5 times don't measure at all the job, the more proud he was.
I've never been the same since! hehehe. I cringe every time I hear the word. :lol:
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none taken, of course.
Thanks. It's tough to convey things right online, and my loudmouthedness doesn't help. But thanks again for being so gracious.
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I may be reinventing wheels but this looks relatively easy to do.
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e226/BD-Fuel/BD%20Prod%20Sys%20Ext/coldstartlubeandcontinuousoilcleani.png)
fixed... parallel systems sharing 'T's and emergency supply