VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: oldskool rich on November 17, 2008, 08:11:52 pm
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ive just added a disco 300tdi pump to my 1Z corrado, it seems to be ok except it doesnt like to cold start and it literaly doesnt rev from cold, i put my foot down and nothing happens untill after a few minits, when it does happen it does alot of caughing and spluttering.
I timed it to 1mm duno if thats right, but thats what you do on an AAZ, the smoke seems a little retarded though seems quite light coloured
anyone got any surgestions? it doesnt appear to be knocking so it cant be that far out, it doesnt have a manual choke so i cant control the timing with that, any ideas how i might advance it wen starting? or does it just need advancing in general?
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Well, as timed in the 300TDi engine itself, it should be 1.54mm without EGR, and 1.4mm with, so I vote for advancing the pump up a bit more :)
-Gavin
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Is the discovery pump a better mtdi pump than the 2.8 iveco/fiat/renault one that is banded about on here/tdi club but pretty hard to find?
Greg.
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thanx greg, that makes sence then
better is a strong word, disco is 11mm the 2.8 is 12mm
11mm is better for high revs, 12mm is better for low rpm
ive only experianced 11mm so far, ive heard of 12mm pps snapping at high revs and sum people swap back to 11mm so its hard to say whats better
im looking for a good mtdi pump for my 2.0 diesel, do you have any details about this 12mm pump i wouldnt mind trying it out if i can find one, i thort it was only on the AGK 2.8LT
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As far as I know, VW never made a 2.8 litre tdi 4-cylinder. The LT is actually a Mercedes Sprinter and should have the 2.9 5-cylinder tdi (an amazing engine) or later cdi, I guess VW wanted to source a different power train for some reason.
As far as I know, don't quote me, it's teh sofim engine. This is Iveco's engine, as used in the Iveco Daily. Iveco farm their Sofim engine out to the Renault Master, Fiat Ducato, Citron Relay, Peugeot Boxer and AFIK the LT 2.8. It was popular a few years ago because few of those 'car' based mfr's had a suitable large cc engine and for the amount of vans they sell it made more sense to buy in. Merc obviously had a range of big diesels so they were not bothered.
Even now, the new Sevel (Fiat Ducato etc) van with the 2.3 litre and 3.0 litre engines are all Sofim Iveco engines.
So, I'm thinking any of the sofim range with a mech pump and tdi (the 2nd gen 2.8, before they switched it to common rail - later went to 3.0 litre 16v with 3rd gen common rail) would do the job.
Comments? Greg.
thanx greg, that makes sence then
better is a strong word, disco is 11mm the 2.8 is 12mm
11mm is better for high revs, 12mm is better for low rpm
ive only experianced 11mm so far, ive heard of 12mm pps snapping at high revs and sum people swap back to 11mm so its hard to say whats better
im looking for a good mtdi pump for my 2.0 diesel, do you have any details about this 12mm pump i wouldnt mind trying it out if i can find one, i thort it was only on the AGK 2.8LT
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Here info about that pump:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9598
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rich, did you have any luck advancing the timing?
I ask because I was about to buy an aaz pump, but the disco pumps are easy to find and if they work well i'd rather use one of them..
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no it wont work on a an IDI, the cam plate is all wrong for the injectors
however it works great now on the TDI
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Hi rich,
It's a TDi i need the pump for, so that sounds great. I'll get a landy pump and have a play.
Sadly, I just bought a 2.8 Ducato mechanical pump, and only realised when it was too late it doesn't have an LDA :( I will research adding an LDA, it seems possible...
Nice one rich, was it just the extra advance, or have you done anything else to the landy pump?
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Checkout that that first, earliest, 2.8 (the non-turbo one) wasn't an IDI motor as well. They switched to DI around then and if yours is off an IDI the profile/advance curve will be all wrong I believe.
Greg.
Hi rich,
It's a TDi i need the pump for, so that sounds great. I'll get a landy pump and have a play.
Sadly, I just bought a 2.8 Ducato mechanical pump, and only realised when it was too late it doesn't have an LDA :( I will research adding an LDA, it seems possible...
Nice one rich, was it just the extra advance, or have you done anything else to the landy pump?
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Greg, this pump is off a 2002, so i'm happy its a DI, just gutted it has no lda. Wonder how gutless an AHU TDi will be with no boost...
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Very? U should be able to fit though. lda not di specific i think, lots about
Greg, this pump is off a 2002, so i'm happy its a DI, just gutted it has no lda. Wonder how gutless an AHU TDi will be with no boost...
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Another q while I'm thinking, as the 2.8 and the disco 200tdi pumps are both di, other than the 12mm of the 2.8 is the camplate/advance curve any aything else relevant about the same? Or is one preferable to the other?
After reading many theads it appeared the main reason not to use a idi td pump on a mtdi was the profile/advance curve.
Greg.
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Not sure on the differences re landrover vs 2.8 etc. But the reason an IDI pump isn't ideal for an mTDi is the pressures generated. TDi injectors open at a much higher pressure than IDI injectors.
As a result, TDi injectors open later when driven by an IDI pump, as the opening pressure is reached later, hence extra advance being needed to compensate.
Not sure of the other differences re advance curve etc, but i'm sure there are a few..
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The main reason is the injection time needed between IDI and DI motor.
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you can make a nice m tdi pump out of a aaz pump , as that is what i have on my car , but if you want a top pump for max power that takes a lot of work + time
i have a ivico 2.8 pump with the 12mm head , and a 2.5 with a 11mm head but need to make up a spacer for the pully to run true ,
i also have a 200 disco pump that i have moded for more power , its not a strate fit on eather (difrant pump braket and pully) for 1Z needed
the pump that i am running on my other mk 2 golf is a pug 306 with the 20mm shaft and some mild mods 11mm head montigo cam plate adv mod gov mod good daly driver
i have built a m TDI pump from a ford 1.6 diesel pump with every mod that i no , 20mm shaft to 11mm head 1z cam plate + more , it also lines up ok on the pullys to :lol: have yet to fit this pump .
but every pump runs a bit difrant due to some difrant bits fitted . ie there is more than one way to skin a cat , it just depends on what you want out of your pump power wise
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I cant see to find any topics regarding the discovery pump, i can get hold of most bits for cheap, I'm thinking Iz engine and discovery pump. how hard is it to convert it?
cheers
ry
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Ryanp,
i just fitted a 200tdi pump to an ahu engine (almost identical to 1z)
The main changes to convert are:
the pump mount bracket needs the main hole opening up, (obvious when you offer the new pump up to the bracket)
the 200/300tdi pump has 3 holes instead of 3 slots where it bolts to the bracket, so timing cant be adjusted. You need to either slot the holes in the mount bracket, or find an adjustable pulley.
you will need to make a new plate where the rear of the pump bolts to the mount bracket. (i did anyway).
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Cheers for that, are there any discovery pumps to avoid or any better ones to hold out for?
What does the car run like when this is fitted?
Finally, What wiring would the car need if i fitted one of these?
Cheers
Ryan
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Don't know about better or worse, i just know from reading on here the 200tdi and 300tdi's work.
re how does it run, cant really say, only had mine running 'on a bench', it ticked over happily, picked up quickly and made boost.
Have yet to drive it, but a proper tdi pump such as the landys should make standard power, give or take a little. Really, you should search the forum, lots of info on here about mtdi's, just have a good read.
Oh, and the wiring: 1 wire to the pump to turn the fuel on, like with the idi's. Couldn't be simpler :D
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well if you use a pump bracket off a na engine its fits perfectly, as the hole is bigger, i just made the holes in the pump longer so the pump could be twisted, these have 11mm pump pistons so surly they will produce more power? also very adjustable, so you can squeeze more fuel out of it and adjust the LDA like you would on a an IDI, as most people know just from playing with the settings alot of power can be gained.
this pump should be able to supply enough fuel for the greadyest of turbos
i was under the impression i was the first to do the disco pump on here, now everyone wants one :roll: wen i get time to properly finish mine ill post up sum figures
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'scuse my ignorance....
If the 200 and 300 disco pumps are tdi as stated above - how are you getting them to work as mtdi? Surely they need to be hybrids with IDI pump bodys or have the full electrickery attached?
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how do we get some over here across the pond?
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@ regcheeseman
tdi isn't a reference to the electronics on a pump, an 'mtdi' is still a tdi.
200/300 tdi landrovers are mechanical and not electronic. this is why we are using them for mtdi conversions. Thought you'd read up all about this stuff before your thread about mtdi's not working properly? :P
Peace,
Monkey Phil
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they are manualy operated TDI pumps as standard, with a bigger PP and LDA ect..
wen i bort mine it cost £35 on ebay but since everyone buys them now you are lucky to get one under a £100, though looking at the exchange rate soon that will be $100, i can buy one and send it over if you want?
im suprised no one has one on the road yet to talk about the performance side of things
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Rich,
I paid over £100 from mine from a breakers, most breakers will want between £100 and £150 for a pump, they know the value of a new replacement Your 35 quid job is a bargain!! Nice one.
Mine is running but not roadgoing yet, I'll be posting info once it's had some miles on it.
Looking forward to sending one over to giles in summer to see what he can squeeze out of one.
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I'd be very interested in one. What are the specs? 10mm, 11mm? It seems they just bolt up?
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Mine is running but not roadgoing yet,
Let me know, just as soon as you get it working properly! :wink:
Anyway, like I said, 'scuse my ignorance.....I never realised there were factory mTDIs.
Am I correct that the LT is a mTDI too?
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the disco 200 300 pump is loaded with good parts to make a 1.9 vw tdi work very well, got my pump for £5 but it needed a nother camplate and rolers which i had , then with a wee tweek hear and there , a pump good for over 200hp :lol: wish thay were all this easy , and as far as i no all 200 300 disco have the bosch pump . and thay are all 11mm , and you need the 1.6d pump bracket to ,bigger hole for the pump to fit in .
dose any one no what nozzles the 200 300 discos have ? i have had a look and no luck :(
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just to add to this thread, does anyone have access to the proper TDI timing advance curve? timing @ 1k rpm & 2k rpm? i recall seeing this on the forum a while back, but forgot which thread had it. this would be good info for calibrating the pumps advance. or even finding out what a 'performance chip' would do to the advance, and then implement that to the mechanical pump.
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the 1.9 N/a bracket will be ok aswell then??
Ryan
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just to add to this thread, does anyone have access to the proper TDI timing advance curve? timing @ 1k rpm & 2k rpm? i recall seeing this on the forum a while back, but forgot which thread had it. this would be good info for calibrating the pumps advance. or even finding out what a 'performance chip' would do to the advance, and then implement that to the mechanical pump.
that would be good info to no and then use a difrant spring and end cap to get the right curve and max advance ,
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yes i second that, i would like to know a better timing position, though i doubt the injectors will either fit or increase performance but worth a look
i could finish my car in a few hours but ive been so busy doing building work im not gona have time for a good few weeks at least :cry:
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I am building a LCD screen that will give me injetion time (in crankshaft degrees) and injection timing using the #3 injectr and crank sensor on my mtdi... the design is done... I just need to find some time to build it.
On the other hand, somebody came up with the idea to hook up a tdi ECU on the #3 injector and crankshaft sensor... that would give yo acces to vag-com, timing and injection quantity !!
Then you can compare with this stock timing map
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/tdiTimingStockMAP-2.jpg)
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Hello everybody! I m trying to optimize the timing of my 2.8 l ATA Pump too. I got this AFN time table from a friend! Perhaps it could help us!(http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/7c44-f.jpg) (http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/7c44-f-jpg-nb.html)
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Hi all, i'm fascinated with this topic. I have an engine out of a 1998 turbo diesel iveco daily. Is this the tdi engine you speak of??? Always thought it was only td and not tdi??? If it is tdi, what mods are needed to run it on a 110tdi in my mk2??? What is the setup with the injectors??? Cheers guys.
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I am building a LCD screen that will give me injetion time (in crankshaft degrees) and injection timing using the #3 injectr and crank sensor on my mtdi... the design is done... I just need to find some time to build it.
On the other hand, somebody came up with the idea to hook up a tdi ECU on the #3 injector and crankshaft sensor... that would give yo acces to vag-com, timing and injection quantity !!
Then you can compare with this stock timing map
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/tdiTimingStockMAP-2.jpg)
Any news about your Timing Display? Could you announce a wiring diagram?
Geeting
Michael
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yes.. I have a tdi ECU and all the connections... so I will use the ECU and only pug the injector +crank sensor for injection quantity and timing.
BUT.. I could build the schematic for you if you want... I could also make the code for the microcontroller but I won't have time to test it really soon so if you want to test it... I can do it very soon.
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yes.. I have a tdi ECU and all the connections... so I will use the ECU and only pug the injector +crank sensor for injection quantity and timing.
BUT.. I could build the schematic for you if you want... I could also make the code for the microcontroller but I won't have time to test it really soon so if you want to test it... I can do it very soon.
That would be nice! But I have never programmed a contoller yet. I think Im able to create a board out of a wiring diagram, but i would need your help.
Greeting
Michael
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Holy CRAP you guys are GODS.
I'm going into computer science in university. Oh jeeze i would LOVE to do what you lot are getting into :D :D :D :D :D
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Ok... this morning I finished creating the PCB wiring and the code.
However, I have NOT tested anything yet... if someone wants to do it.. it would help everyone.. including me since I don't have time right now to do it. If someone wants to do it, contact me BEFORE so you will know if there is any changes to make to the PCB or to the PIC programming.
Here are everything that you need to build a tdi timing (and injection quantity in crankshaft degrees) to LCD. I will soon make a DIY on how to build your own PCB easily.
If you need to buy a programer for the microcontroler you can look here:
http://www.winpic800.com/tienda/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=17&category_id=7&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=8
or here
http://www.canakit.com/pic-programmer.html?gclid=CKSfh5Ta_ZkCFSAgDQodm1OTGA
or here
http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/prog/ck1708.htm
or on ebay
(be careful as some may need a power supply as extra cost)
anything that can program a PIC 16F876A is good.
This is the circuit as seen from top. (the second layer is shown in red.. just use 2 wires)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/timingtoLCD_all.png)
You will also need this file to create the PCB itself
http://www.4shared.com/file/100273995/80ba12ef/timing_to_LCD_PCB.html
... here is the components you will need and where to place them:
http://www.4shared.com/file/100274015/da659bd1/timing_to_LCD_V01.html
and... the code to program the microcontroler
http://www.4shared.com/file/100274542/3fbd38dc/Timing.html
for now... the code only shows timing... I didn't had time to implement the injection quantity.
-R3 needs to be adjust so you have at least 12.5V at the crank and injector connectors
-R10 needs to be adjusted close to 2.7k PRIOR to installing. In fact, it needs to be adjusted so that if you replace the injector connector by a 10k resistor, you will have 0V when you put the resistor and 5V when you don't put it AT THE TOP RED WIRE.
-R27 needs to be adjusted close to 6.8k PRIOR to installing. In fact, it should act just as R10 but you might need a 1M resistor to make the voltage change from 5V to 0V AT THE LOWER RED WIRE. This one is less difficult to adjust.
-For the LCD, you can use a connector so that you can place the LCD apart from the PCB.
-The crank sensor has 3 wire, only two are usefull, the signal needs to be positive, so you might need to invert the wire if it doesn't work (don't know yet which one to use). I will tell when I checked which one to use.
-The same thing happens with the injector connector, the signal needs to be positive first, so you might need to invert the 2 wire if it doesn't work. I will tell as soon as I have my car back (one of my friend needed it for the week) but I think that the connector at the left when the connector guide face the sky is the positive one.
Finally... when you build it.. my phone number will show on the LCD... give me a call!! lol!
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You sir, are a credit to the community ;-) How long did you study/train to be able to do something like that so quickly?
Greg.
Ok... this morning I finished creating the PCB wiring and the code.
However, I have NOT tested anything yet... if someone wants to do it.. it would help everyone.. including me since I don't have time right now to do it. If someone wants to do it, contact me BEFORE so you will know if there is any changes to make to the PCB or to the PIC programming.
Here are everything that you need to build a tdi timing (and injection quantity in crankshaft degrees) to LCD. I will soon make a DIY on how to build your own PCB easily.
If you need to buy a programer for the microcontroler you can look here:
http://www.winpic800.com/tienda/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=17&category_id=7&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=8
or here
http://www.canakit.com/pic-programmer.html?gclid=CKSfh5Ta_ZkCFSAgDQodm1OTGA
or here
http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/prog/ck1708.htm
or on ebay
(be careful as some may need a power supply as extra cost)
anything that can program a PIC 16F876A is good.
This is the circuit as seen from top. (the second layer is shown in red.. just use 2 wires)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/bareil76/timingtoLCD_all.png)
You will also need this file to create the PCB itself
http://www.4shared.com/file/100273995/80ba12ef/timing_to_LCD_PCB.html
... here is the components you will need and where to place them:
http://www.4shared.com/file/100274015/da659bd1/timing_to_LCD_V01.html
and... the code to program the microcontroler
http://www.4shared.com/file/100274542/3fbd38dc/Timing.html
for now... the code only shows timing... I didn't had time to implement the injection quantity.
-R3 needs to be adjust so you have at least 12.5V at the crank and injector connectors
-R10 needs to be adjusted close to 2.7k PRIOR to installing. In fact, it needs to be adjusted so that if you replace the injector connector by a 10k resistor, you will have 0V when you put the resistor and 5V when you don't put it AT THE TOP RED WIRE.
-R27 needs to be adjusted close to 6.8k PRIOR to installing. In fact, it should act just as R10 but you might need a 1M resistor to make the voltage change from 5V to 0V AT THE LOWER RED WIRE. This one is less difficult to adjust.
-For the LCD, you can use a connector so that you can place the LCD apart from the PCB.
-The crank sensor has 3 wire, only two are usefull, the signal needs to be positive, so you might need to invert the wire if it doesn't work (don't know yet which one to use). I will tell when I checked which one to use.
-The same thing happens with the injector connector, the signal needs to be positive first, so you might need to invert the 2 wire if it doesn't work. I will tell as soon as I have my car back (one of my friend needed it for the week) but I think that the connector at the left when the connector guide face the sky is the positive one.
Finally... when you build it.. my phone number will show on the LCD... give me a call!! lol!
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Thank you! ... I learn all that by myself because people in the electronic community were very nice and made documents like these. I have been doing electronics in my freetime for 2 years.
I have to ask a lot of questions some time to make those circuits... but this one was easier since I already had all the "parts" of the circuit made for other projects.
For the programmation part, I am doing doctoral studies in physics... I specialise in programming code to calculate much more complex things... that helps a lot!! lol!
If you want the French version of the how to make a circuit.. go there
http://www.vwquebec.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1139290&posted=1#post1139290
there is also the schematic for a VNT electronic controler as a bonus.
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any one built one of theas things yet , how easy was it ? how dose it shape up ? want to make me one :wink:
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I am close to building/testing it.. I tried with a tdi ECU and it was not that good to setup the timing because you have no idea of the injection quantity in degrees.. so it is difficult to adjust timing!
The boost controler posted elsewhere (idi section I think) works fine though. I run one with VNT17VA and my dad also runs one on his dakota m-tdi with VNT20
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I know this is a REALLY old post, but I'm doing a mTDI build, and I think getting the timing via the 3rd injector and crank sensor is a smart idea with the PCB. I'm not a stranger to electronics and I was an UNIX Engineer / programmer for a few decades, so I think I can tackle this.
However, all the photos and information above is currently removed. If anyone has anything they could post up / send / verify etc that'd be awesome. Thanks!