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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: festethejeste on February 20, 2020, 12:15:59 am
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Hey guys,
2 Canadians stuck on our engagement trip with an 82 westy here. We have an original diesel with a swapped a 1.9 TD (Aaz). We mistakenly ran out of fuel and sucked up some dirt we think. Filled up with about 10 bucks of diesel and bled the lines and after much effort it started and ran fine. I had to turn the van off to install a serp belt back on but didn't have enough battery to get it going again and had to call a tow truck.
Let it sit over night after we got towed and got it started but it's really running like hell. Seems to be over fueling. Judging by the unburnt smoke. But also sounds super clacky ( hopefully the motor isn't gone ,:(
Giles pump is practically new (1000 miles)and seems to be working properly
Engine was rebuilt 10000 miles ago.
Re- bled all the lines and let it run for atleast 20 mins but nothing changed
The only thing we did in-between when it started after running out of fuel and when we tried the next day was try to bump start it a couple of times...a bump start couldn't the motor could it?
Just wondering if they're any local gurus that could help in the area or online? We are currently stuck in Victorville California.
Thanks in advance
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I suppose it could have jumped timing on the injection pump.
Might be 1 tooth off.
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I agree with Fatmobile. Sounds like bump starting it caused it to jump time on the injection pump. Double check the timing for all three sprockets.
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Thanks guys.
That actually sounds like it could be it. Makes sense
Is there a link or instructions on how to do this?
Cheers
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Do you have an A3 Bentley? That would cover your engine. How familiar are you with the engine? Do you have tools?
The method used for checking the injection pump timing depends on the year of the AAZ engine that was installed. The later AAZ engines came with a two-part injection pump sprocket that had a central hub that bolted to the injection pump shaft and an outer sprocket part that bolted to the hub. The earlier pumps had a single piece sprocket. The method for checking or adjusting the timing is different for each of those.
For either version, the basics of it are to rotate the engine to TDC for the #1 cylinder and then see if the injection pump sprocket is relatively in alignment with the pump pin hole.
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Thanks. Not sure what engine version or pump here's a pic if that helps.
https://m.imgur.com/a/2yXBUUE
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I can't actually tell from either of those pictures. You would need to remove the upper plastic timing belt cover and take a picture of the sprocket.
Please answer the questions I asked in my last post. Answers to those questions (or others that I might ask) will help me to help you.
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Hi Libby,
Thanks for your response.
I do have tools but no a3 Bentley.
Reluctantly brought the van into dreamcar European auto repair in Victorville. 450$ in and they still haven't found out what it is.
Said the compression was good, timing was good but need more time. They said it might be electrical... I laughed. This is what I was dreading.
I don't have any more pictures to verify what engine I have
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From your description of it running, but running rough and being overly clacky, I do not see how the issue could possibly be anything electrical. The AAZ is really a single wire engine, meaning that all that is needed for it to run fine is power to the stop solenoid. Lacking power to the stop solenoid will cause it not to run, it will not make it run poorly or cause it to be clacky. That makes me actually doubt that the shop has dealt with one of the pre-TDI engines and makes me doubt that they know what they are doing.
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Yep, like libby said.
For timing; Set the crank to TDC and see if the injection pump is in the right spot.
Compression test can be done with a socket turning the crank and feeling for resistance. 15 minutes.
$450 for nothing sounds like you got burned.
Checking electrical would require a voltmeter on the one wire, while cranking and after. 15 minutes tops.
If it doesn't have voltage; run a wire to the battery, start up and go.
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Ditto on everything just said. Anybody who looks at one of these engines and says the problem "might be electrical" also can't be relied upon to check the timing properly.
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They've said the timing is fine. But one injector is apparently stuck open. I have my doubts but I have 4 new injectors ( 3 extra just in case ) coming from Giles.
I really have my doubts about this injector though considering the van fired right up and ran properly before I shut it off on the side of the road.
There is only one fuel filter btw.
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As far as what you are saying and what the shop is saying, things don't seem to add up. I wish you the best in this and after getting out of this situation, I would encourage you to learn more about the function of your engine so that you can avoid this type of situation in the future. There are not very many shops that understand these older IDI engines.
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So just to clarify. Timing is checked via the notch cut out on the cam, the fly wheel TDC mark and timing plug taken out of the back of the pump.
Is there a quick way to check the pump timing without the dial
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It is *not* possible to confirm that the injection pump timing is correct without either using some sort of measuring device like a dial indicator or a significantly more expensive and more rare tool like a diesel pulse adapter and strobe timing light. You could potentially confirm that the pump is on the correct tooth using the depth end of some digital calipers but they are not accurate enough to set the timing, IMO.
Because there is almost two teeth's worth of adjustment in the slots of the injection pump mounting holes, it is possible to have the timing set correctly on more than one specific tooth of the belt and without one of the aforementioned methods of checking, you cannot tell that it is correct.
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New injector didn't solve the issue.
Luckily the owner was there and they actually had a compression test and cylinder #2 had 0 psi. The original mech said they didn't have the tools.
I have no idea how cylinder 2 goes from working completely fine to 0. Engine ran fine (2 mins) then was shut off. Bump started a couple of times ( 2 forward bumps and 1 backward) maybe the backward one did it?
So that's it I guess. Our 2 month journey ends very expensively, with a blown head, no explanation and now we ship this back to Canada on a flatbed
***.
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So with the 1.9 engine,..
there is no mark on the injection pump sprocket
that lets you know if it's at TDC?
Like there is on the back of the 1.6 sprocket.
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Yeah but the guy stuck a dial gauge in the back and said it was alright..
However I did ask (quiz) him on what the deflection was ie approx 80 mm and he said yeah it was about that... So much for confidence
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Reluctantly brought the van into dreamcar European auto repair in Victorville. 450$ in and they still haven't found out what it is.
Said the compression was good, timing was good but need more time.
I don't get it. You say here that they said the compression was good then you say the problem is no 0 compression in one of the cylinders? Sorry for your troubles. It sounds to me like the place working on it had no idea what they were doing and you got to pay them extra for that.
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Yeah a little bit of that Libby.
I found out that they originally said they checked compression but after actually talking to the mechanic he said no we actually didn't. Claiming we don't have the right fittings... ( Side note what are the fittings I need so I can do this myself or is there a kit I could by at Napa or something)
Then I ordered new injectors only to find out that wasn't the problem.
Then the owner luckily said "did you check the compression" and magically pulled out the kit with fittings. Dumb and lazy mech I guess. I was so surprised when the mech said"we don't have the fittings" sorry.... While I look around in the garage and its full of old Mercs VW's etc.
Of course "check the compression" was the first thing I asked them to do...
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To check compression you need a diesel compression tester. There are cheap ones available from Harbor Freight or the like. Most will come with either an adapter that fits the glow plug or one that fits the injector or both. Their accuracy might not be great but they'd definitely show the difference between 0 and decent. FWIW, even without any sort of compression tester, 0 compression on one cylinder would be quite obvious just rotating the crankshaft by hand. There would be no resistance on that compression stroke.
If there actually is 0 compression on one cylinder, then here is a feasible explanation. Bump starting it caused weak AAZ crankshaft bolt/sprocket to be overly stressed and to rotate far enough that timing was off. Next time you tried to start it, pistons hit valves (extra clacky sound) resulting in 0 compression due to the bent valve(s). That would mean that the shop didn't have a clue and didn't know how to check the timing either. I'm not sure what to suggest other than what I mentioned before. When the dust settles, if you plan on continuing to own/operate this vehicle, you might want to get the proper manual(s) and become obsessive with learning how they work so you can avoid this type of situation in the future. An AAZ Westy is a fine thing but few mechanics know them and the vast majority of shops are an alarming combination of inept and dishonest when they get outside their comfort zone.
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Thanks again Libby.
So they must have lied about the timing as well...
Wouldnt you see the fly wheel off from TDC mark?
My guess was leaning toward that weak crank pulley. Man I just want to know how it happened now for peace of mind.
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The flywheel does not slip, the front sprocket slips. The flywheel mark (it's actually a groove in the pressure plate for the diesel vanagon) will show TDC for the crankshaft regardless. The crankshaft is what drives the pump and cam, so a slipping front crank sprocket causes both the cam and the injection pump to become retarded. Did they pull the valve cover off to check the camshaft?
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Yes they said they did.
Checked both the cam and the pump
Something just doesn't add up with these guys...
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If it's the crank sprocket keyway.
You should be able to grab the crank pully and feel it wiggle.
There is also a bump on the crank sprocket.
You can usually see it through the pully holes.
It should be at 7:30 when the crank is at TDC.
If pistons hit the valves the hydraulic lifters should be cracked and spidered,.. at least.
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Could something like this also damage the bottom end? I'm assuming so.
Like new Pistons, crank shaft etc. Or should I just be looking for a new engine.
I've got a lead on a rebuilt AHU but I'm not sure if would work with the old diesel bars in our vanagon or with the mechanical Giles pump.
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The AHU will run very poorly with the AAZ injection pump. In stock form the AHU had a full electronic engine management. They can be run with a mechanical injection pump but it must be built correctly and simply bolting on an AAZ injection pump will not run well at all.
If pistons hit valves, probably the bottom end is fine. It is possible to bend a rod or crack a piston but usually neither happens. Just bent valves and broken lifters.
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Thanks Libby so for now I should start looking for a new head, head gasket, hg bolts, new crank shaft from a 1z or AHU? ( Are there any other cranks with the D shape that could work with the aaz) and d shaped sprocket and sprocket bolt?
If the aaz crank isn't ***ed is it possible to file the D shape while on the engine?
Sorry for all the questions, I appreciate y'all's time greatly
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I don't necessarily trust the diagnosis of the prior shop so basing decisions on that seems a little questionable. IF there was indeed 0 compression in one of the cylinders, then pulling the head to see what the issue was would be the first step. 0 compression is typically a bent valve but you cannot be sure until the head is off an you can inspect. The only cranks that will work properly are the AAZ and the AHU or 1Z. Well, 1Y and AFN would also probably work but those were not offered in any vehicles in north america so quite rare. AAZ has the notch style. 1Z and AHU have the D-shape. If actually replacing the crankshaft you will need new main bearing cap bolts and new rod bolts as both are single-use TTY bolts.
The D-shaped cut needs to be made in a precision manner. Trying to file or grind the shape into the end of the crank would not be accurate enough and would be VERY likely to fail quite soon after. I actually had a jig made that allows me to cut the end of the crank with the engine still in the vehicle, using a keyway broach, but it is far more accurate than trying to freehand the shape. Other people have made similar tools but those people are few and far between.
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Thanks Libby.
I made a video to show you the timing. Yes I know the notch is behind the silver notch on the flywheel I just couldn't get a good shot of it.
https://youtu.be/pmHdbM-lQ0o
I asked them about an endoscope and they said it won't really help your piston still doesn't have compression. Yeah no *** I'd still like to know what happened right?
As far as checking what the petroleum was it's definitely diesel. I let somebody out on my rubber glove and try to light it on fire pyro styles and it didn't light. It did smell like diesel but I'm not an expert as this is my first diesel.
Some more questions though. how stiff or hard should it be to turn the engine over it felt really easy considering that engine supposed to be making 300 PSI correct?
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BTW, I'm ?Waldo? on the Samba. I posted a couple replies to your thread there.
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Cool thanks Waldo!
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In an effort to make sure I have the right tools for next time.
Would this dial indicator work for my Bosch pump.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00O1QTSF2/ref=sspa_mw_detail_0?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Yes, that will work.
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Thanks Libby
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So just confirmed cylinder 2 does have zero PSI cylinders 1 2 and 3 are very good.
I have some questions though for anybody who would like to help.
See video https://youtu.be/9c9GWej2_as
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And the diagnosis. F$@$#
https://youtu.be/wa-qt34itUU
What could cause those chips in 2 and 4?
I'm particularly interested in #4 and why the edge of the piston is start to pit and crack.
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Could there have been a ring of carbon buildup at the top of the pistons that broke away and put the small holes in the number 4 and 3 pistons?
As for the damage to #2, I think the statement you made about there being a part of the valve stem falling into it after it jumped time is most likely. When you pull those valves out you may find they smashed themselves back together for the most part. As for being in time now how about a jump forward with the first bump start and a second with the push from behind?
Compensating tooth jumping but with damage internally in between?
Or just weak parts that didn't like the bump.
Very odd indeed my friend. Sorry it has become a black hole for money. Feeling more like a Ford van as your next vacation mobile?
I didn't think so.
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Thanks for the info!
Updated info.
All glow plugs are fine. They didn't chip off.
Turbo is fine no particulars or missing parts. I did find reminents of aluminum in the exhaust side. Most def parts of either the head or the pistons.
Interesting thing is that the valves are imprinted with whatever was in there but they're intact. Ie they didn't break off.
The intake filter was always on and intercooler was intact no parts or pieces of metal.
So the only thing that's left to me is piston rings. I did find a very small piece of steal at the bottom of cylinder 2. Picked up by my magnetic. There's also pieces of steel melted or impacted into the top of the head. I hover my magnetic over it and she sticks.
I did read somewhere that it is possible the a piston ring can break off and rattle around in the engine. It looks like it's happening in cylinder # 4.
So we measured the bores 79.55. Should I bore these out to the next size? If so what's the next size? Or is this in spec. I assume it needs to be bored or honed regardless due to the streaks in #2. Is a standard head gasket going to work still with the diameter increased?
Sorry for all the questions I'm in no man's land
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I don't have specs for that Engine so I can't say if you need to bore is larger or not. Maybe a hone is all you need on #2 cylinder.
I have to scratch my bald head on this one. Clearly something got in that cylinder and got beat about and damaged the engine. But what? How?
Had to come in the intake so do you have a broken heat shield? There are known cases where they get cracks in them and maybe a cracked one was installed and a piece of it went down to the depths of #2 cylinder?
It had to be small enough to clear the opening of the pre chamber right? Otherwise it would have just caused the engine to get a poor injection of fuel. A small washer? Something left in the intake manifold during the rebuild that wasn't noticed?
All very odd if the timing was still on mark. Really a pisser to have spent so much and gotten so little back on a rebuild.
I have not heard of rings coming out of the piston and getting above it but we are talking better than average compression and breaking in a new set of rings may have done as you say. I just never heard of it and can't see it happening. But then, new species of animals are discovered all the time and amaze us that they have stayed hidden so well, so long.
Good luck with this monster. I think it needs a sticker on the back fender that says Black Hole.
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I wonder if there was enough fuel to wash out a cylinder?
We did find evidence of a lip on the cylinder wall on #2. Probably wasn't bored out properly in the original build?