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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: Kamikaze on February 09, 2018, 12:01:54 pm

Title: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Kamikaze on February 09, 2018, 12:01:54 pm
Hello there, i need your advice guys. I can't find LR / LT pump in our country for good price and i am looking now for IP from 2.8 Ducato but i don't know if i should go to TDI or iDTD variant. Both looks like DI pump and both have mechanical throttle.

Which one is better for Plug&play in to AFN engine? I have 764nozzles in this engine. I have already ready hub/pulley from golf MK4 but i think it would be useless with these 12mm pumps.

-----

Stock nozzles with a new 12mm pump can result in the plunger seizing.
Are 764(0.216) nozzles big enought for avoiding seizing or can i lower fuel enrichment for avoiding seizing? I know 12mm is a little bit overkill but it's a lot cheaper like 300/200TDI or Croma pumps. I am aiming at 70-100kw. I have K14 wg-turbo with large intercooler.
Now i have AAZ body with AFN guts and it feels like 35Kw so i am looking for improvement.


EDIT: Some minor changes.


Sorry for bad english.
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: Kamikaze on February 10, 2018, 03:41:32 am
Or would be better IP like 0460414120 / 0460414128? But these are with price close to 300TDI and have spring instead of governor - can i use my AAZ governor on 2.5TDI-ducato pump instead of spring?
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: Kamikaze on February 10, 2018, 02:28:59 pm
Can i use my AAZ governor on 2.5TDI-ducato pump instead of spring?

I am going answer one question by myself. It looks like AAZ governor have a lot shorter arm like governor from 2.5 IP so it wouldn't be good idea.
(http://dens-site.net/Dodge_CTD/Governor_Spring/Governor_Spring_19.jpg)
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: libbydiesel on February 11, 2018, 01:49:32 pm
Hello there, i need your advice guys. I can't find LR / LT pump in our country for good price and i am looking now for IP from 2.8 Ducato but i don't know if i should go to TDI or iDTD variant. Both looks like DI pump and both have mechanical throttle.

Which one is better for Plug&play in to AFN engine? I have 764nozzles in this engine. I have already ready hub/sprocket from golf MK4 but i think it would be useless with these 12mm pumps.

-----

Stock nozzles with a new 12mm pump can result in the plunger seizing.
Are 764(0.216) nozzles big enought for avoiding seizing or can i lower fuel enrichment for avoiding seizing? I know 12mm is a little bit overkill but it's a lot cheaper like 300/200TDI or Croma pumps. I am aiming at 70-100kw. I have K14 wg-turbo with large intercooler.
Now i have AAZ body with AFN guts and it feels like 35Kw so i am looking for improvement.


EDIT: Some minor changes.


Sorry for bad english.

I'm not familiar with either Ducato pump.  From looking at pics, it would appear that they have the larger shaft diameter but shorter snout.  The combination means that there is not any stock sprocket that will work with them (like the Cummins 4BTA).  You could use the AAZ capsule, but would need to pull the rivet and fasten to the shaft shown in order to achieve the better offset.  Depending on the LDA setup this might result in interference.

The single-spring governor setup will work if you use an appropriate spring.  If I had to guess from the pic, it looks like the rpms would be very limited with that single spring. 

The other item of concern is the timing advance curve.  It needs to be close to the VW one.  The LR300 pump and the LT28 pumps are both fine in that regard.  I have no idea about the Ducato. 
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: Kamikaze on February 11, 2018, 06:37:52 pm
Thank you for a reply!
By "Snout" you mean this collars in circles? I have both pulley for long and short snout, but can i use pulley from 17mm shaft on 20mm? Or is cone on shaft different? I also have pulley for RL pump but i don't have sprocket. It seems like ALH/RL pump have bigger diameter of snout.

Somewhere on this forum i saw topic where guy said about Iveco/ducato pump but i can't find it now.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/11m7uzb.png)
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: libbydiesel on February 11, 2018, 10:54:22 pm
By "Snout" you mean this collars in circles?

Yes, the red is what I mean by snout.

Quote
I have both pulley for long and short snout, but can i use pulley from 17mm shaft on 20mm? Or is cone on shaft different?

You cannot use a sprocket that fits a 20mm shaft on a pump with a 17mm shaft.  You cannot use a 17mm sprocket on a 20mm shaft.  There is not any stock sprocket that fits the VW engine that fits the short snout AND the 20mm shaft.  There are various ways that people have dealt with the mismatch.  The most often used method is to have the 1.6 sprocket (17mm short snout) machined to the correct taper and diameter to fit the 20mm shaft at the correct depth.  That custom cut will cost some $$ if you can find someone willing to do it and then add the keyway slot in the correct location.

Quote
I also have pulley for RL pump but i don't have sprocket. It seems like ALH/RL pump have bigger diameter of snout.

By RL are you referring to the Land Rover pump?  When you say you have the pulley for it do you mean the center hub that the sprocket bolts to?  The land rover hub is not useful without a significant amount of machining.  The ALH and Land Rover shafts are 20mm (as are all stock TDI pump shafts that I've seen).  The ALH hub will fit on the 20mm pump shaft with the long snout and give the correct sprocket offset when used with the ALH sprocket.  The 1Z/AHU/AFN sprocket will also fit the long snout and 20mm shaft and give the correct offset.

Quote
Somewhere on this forum i saw topic where guy said about Iveco/ducato pump but i can't find it now.

I don't know the Iveco/ducato pumps so I can't really comment.
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: Kamikaze on February 12, 2018, 07:05:37 pm
Quote
There is not any stock sprocket that fits the VW engine that fits the short snout AND the 20mm shaft.
Thanks a lot, I owe you a beer! You saved me ~150€ or a lot nerves.

And i am sorry for my english, it seems i misunderstood some technical term like pulley -> sprocket -> bracket. Now i understant it a lot better.

This is my sprocket and hub from pump 0460404977 with 20mm shaft. I think this is what i would need for RL (yes Land Rover) pump.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/rt3wqs.jpg)

I should stop speculating and rather bought expensive Land Rover pump and hope for working one. :D
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: libbydiesel on February 12, 2018, 10:59:37 pm
Yes, the ALH hub and sprocket will work fine on the Land Rover pump.  You will need to have the center of the AFN pump bracket machined out to the larger diameter, though. 

Stolen pic:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8cbHjBu4nqE/UHehYKET4pI/AAAAAAAACcM/OgGHxVR0vg4/s320/IMG_4254.jpg)

There are a couple other minor external mods necessary to run the Land Rover pump.  The details are in another thread on the forum here.  Let me know if you need me to find it for you. 
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: Kamikaze on April 23, 2018, 09:38:17 am
Can i ask you for help again? Now I have a chance to buy this pump, but i don't know if it is 200TDI/300TDI or 2.5td.
IP number 0460414069

It's good IP? I am looking for 300TDI because i know timing 1.58mm is good enough.
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: libbydiesel on April 23, 2018, 02:36:43 pm
I'm not sure of the part number.  Can you post any pics?
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: Kamikaze on April 23, 2018, 04:45:59 pm
I don't have any, i was just through telephone in contact with seller. He told me it is from Discovery 1 2.5TDI 83KW 1993. Seller is older man and he is living very far away to visit him just fot pics but i can try tomorrow ask to send me any pics.


Edit: What i found on wikipedia it looks like 200TDI pump because of manufactured year. Damn, i was happy for a while. :) There are plenty informations about 300tdi but a few about 200tdi IP.
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: Kamikaze on April 28, 2018, 06:28:42 pm
Ok some photos of this pump, hope it is 200tdi. It looks like this pump havn't cold start advance (choke).
(http://www.imageworld.sk/images/l8w0x11yvhw24xud49c.jpg)
(http://www.imageworld.sk/images/ejfzarkhrv5hj5lprso.jpg)
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
Post by: Kamikaze on June 09, 2018, 04:39:04 pm
So today i mount this 200tdi pump in my golf and it is insane what a beast it is! I timed it on 1.54mm on bench and finally it goes how car should go. It feels like 2times more power like GTD pump with 10mm plunger.

But now i have weak clutch.  ;D
At this stage how important is Tandem/in-tank fuel pump?

And big THANKS vwdiesel forum and libbydiesel.
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: libbydiesel on June 09, 2018, 10:07:39 pm
Excellent!  Glad to hear it worked out for you.  :)
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Kamikaze on June 15, 2018, 04:17:19 am
Libbydiesel as i mentioned i am using Sprint764 nozzles, should i stay at 1.54mm or it affect timing in some way if i don't have stock nozzles?
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: libbydiesel on June 17, 2018, 02:13:24 am
Nozzles definitely affect timing.  If you don't have access to a pulse adapter, then next best is to make very fine adjustments until it is not too clattery, has easy cold starts, and good power.
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Kamikaze on August 27, 2018, 10:46:39 am
And can I ask you for advice, which way I should do fine tuning? If i am now at 1.54mm should i increase this number or decrease?

I think opening pressure is changing timing and i have stock opening pressure (195Bar), isnt it?
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: libbydiesel on August 27, 2018, 07:43:32 pm
I would have to listen to the engine running to offer a decent opinion on whether it sounds overly advanced/retarded.  Maybe post up a sound clip or video? 

1.54 is a very high plunger lift setting.  A good baseline on a 300TDI pump with stock injectors is 1.40mm plunger lift.  At 1.54, it is more likely overly advanced than overly retarded but that's just a guess. 
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Kamikaze on September 20, 2018, 03:49:01 pm
Sorry about long silence about me, here i am with video of engine sound. Hope its good enough example to hear it. I am little bit sad i cut video too early, after reviving like on video are idle RPM higher for a few seconds. Engine was warm.

https://youtu.be/xQaMWwmwsVo

Its daily car so i am sorry for enthusiast.
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: libbydiesel on September 20, 2018, 07:16:40 pm
As far as timing it sounds fairly reasonable.  I don't hear a lot of diesel clatter.

It could just be the recording vs. being there in real life, but I feel like I hear too much tick and hiss.  Almost like a combination of a soft lifter and an intake or vac pump leak or something rubbing or a bad bearing in the alt/water pump.   
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Kamikaze on September 21, 2018, 03:22:38 am
Wow, you are great! I am happy timing is OK. I set pump on bench so maybe when belt was putting up it decrease a little bit from 1,54mm.

And you hear good with ticking like hydraulic lifter but they are almost brand new (maybe 15K Km). I fighted with this sound a lot but dont find what it is doing. Oil pressure is at iddle 1.5bar so good enough. I Give up about this, maybe engine is worn out because engine is from Golf Mk3 old taxi with 600K km. :) I bought it very cheap and it started excelent cold/warm. I told myself "it sound like hydraulic lifter so easy to change" but changing them didn't help. :(

And also alternator bearing is bad, hopefully i will fix it as soon as possible because while glowplugs are ON alternator is squeaking a little bit (like a bird) so for now i have taken out glow plug Relay-60. :)

Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Kamikaze on October 17, 2018, 05:51:46 am
Libbydiesel i am here again. Sorry for bothering again. O:)
For weekend i am planing some fine tuning and one thing is bothering me and i can't find information so i am looking for informations by this way.

I don't know how call it right in english but let's call it "starting injection quantity". When i am starting up engine it inject too many diesel so it smokes a lot and RPM jump a little bit (~1400rpm for 0.5 second). Smoke fades away in 1-3 seconds. I think it is causing "Starting Injection Quantity" of 2,5Liter engine on 1.9Liter. Can you tell me please how decrease it?

I am thinking it is this little spring in circle, i am right?

(http://i63.tinypic.com/k1uzvp.png)
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: ORCoaster on October 17, 2018, 08:59:49 pm
Kanikaze,  Don't mess with that little spring it is not what you want to adjust.   In your picture look at the lever that is sticking up past the top of the level of the body of the IP.  Now go get the top part that goes on and flip it over.  See the screw like thing that would touch the lever if it was all put together?  That is the Fuel Screw that controls the amount of fuel going into the engine at startup and when under way, driving.

You need to turn that screw out a couple of turns, two half turns.  Maybe more once the car gets running.  Turning it makes a lot of difference in how the car runs, how much power it has, how much fuel is wasted as black smoke. 

When you change the amount of fuel going in at idle you  also have to change the idle setting that is the screw that pushes the lever out a bit farther.  It is a balancing act.  A little more idle screw and a little less fuel screw. 

If the car is not responsive when you are driving it, then the fuel screw goes in like 1/4 turn and the idle gets backed off a bit to lower the RPMs
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Kamikaze on October 19, 2018, 10:16:18 am
Thanks for exhausting answer. Don't worry picrute above is from one IDI/MTDi frankenstain what i did before 200tdi pump. I am not touched that spring. On 200Tdi pump i did just Governor mod.
But if i lower enrichment screw i lost a lot of power/torque, mainly on bottom spectrum of RPMs and LDA "kicks in" is a lot more noticeable and i don't like that - it feels like turbo spool. I hoped for lowering starting quantity without lose power.

I think i will survive then a little smoke on start. So it looks that i have just one thing to do for weekend. I want decrease maximum pressure from 1.3b to 1.2b for less strain in  my K14 turbo. Hope that turbo will survive with car until rust eat whole car. :D


Sorry for my terrible english.  :-[
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: ORCoaster on October 19, 2018, 11:08:32 pm
Not bad English if I can understand the intent or thoughts.  Rust can be dealt with too.  Chemicals that we use when painting bind to the rust and stop the process.  If you look around you will find them.  Not expensive either.  I think I bought a quart bottle for about 13 dollars at the hardware store last year.  Have given half of that away to others doing body work or painting their cars or vans.  They didn't know such a thing existed. 

And dad taught me all about nearly 50 years ago.  Thanks dad.
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Kamikaze on January 31, 2019, 12:41:39 pm
In my case there is no help when you don't have metal to apply at. :D My golf was many years abused as working car on farm without any maintaince but when i sold my old car and needed something for driving and i fall in love with this golf. But now the floor under driver seat is very rusty, i mean there is hole you can see ground when you look under carped. And repair will cost more than golf with nice floor.

But now i am bored while is winter and i am thinking about some work for increase HP.   ::)
I found in garage one turbo named KKK K14 (6707) from Audi A6 2.5TDi 1996
Now in car i have KKK K14 (7009) from Passat B3 1.9TD AAZ

Both are K14 but there is a massive difference between them. (6707) is a lot larger and i am thinking if it is possible made hybrid turbo Exhaust part from 7009 and pressure part from 6707.  Now i have boost at 1.25Bar but turbo scream in pain. 0.9Bar is regular pressure. But spool is pretty late.
What do you think? Will it perform better, or is it even possible made this combination?
Title: Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
Post by: Dino on June 14, 2019, 03:06:40 pm
Hello.
Once upon a time I was going to buy a green metalic Golf like yours but it wsa too expensive.
I like that colour.
I have some questions  but I can't translate or explain it very well.
The pumps you've found before the Land Rover one fit on the sprocket with the VW pulley?
How many different pulleys have you got? Where are they from?
Was the Golf a 70hp 1.6TD?
What about the gerabox? Is it still the 1.6 one?
What about the fuel consumption?
Do I need to swap the gerabox or I can take its own gerabox?
What about flywheel,clutch and electric starter?
Do you use a dial gauge for pump setting? Other tools or adaptors?
To many questions,sorry.
Thank you very much.