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Author Topic: IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg  (Read 39119 times)

Reply #30May 23, 2007, 03:10:37 am

greg123

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2007, 03:10:37 am »
My first car on the road was a Polo 895cc, it was a very good car really and did 70-80 on the motorway fine.  I remember the brakes though, you certainly wouldn't want a faster/heavier vehicle on them ;-)


Quote from: "Mark(The Miser)UK"


Greg, I nearly put a 1.6 TD in my mother-in-laws mk1 Polo! No brake servo put me off :lol:
Freelance Mechanic specialising in Tdi motors and Veg-oil 2-tank conversions.

Reply #31May 23, 2007, 05:40:21 am

greg123

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2007, 05:40:21 am »
Quote from: "QuickTD"
It seems that the general consensus here is that compressing the air on the compression stroke represents a net energy loss. This isn't entirely true. At the end of the compression stroke, if no fuel is added, the air compressed within the combustion chamber will expand again and drive the piston back down, think of the air as a spring. The pressure in the cylinder will then be much the same as at the end of the intake stroke. Very little work is done and therefore the losses are minimal. The losses would consist of the heat lost during compression the some energy lost to moving the air through the intake and exhaust valves.


I respectfully dissagree.  Yes it would seem that if you compress the cylinder that takes work, but the highly compressed air would then push the piston back down releasing the same amount of work.  This is perpetual motion, which can't exist.

I believe the practical illustration of just how big the losses in energy due to compression can be illustrated as follows:  Take an engine with good compression and crank it over by hand - or on the starter.  To spin it at starter motor speeds takes in the order of 3HP just to crank it, that is nowhere near idling speed!  Now adjust the exhaust valves so they are cracked open a bit all the time (don't foul the pistons!) and thus the engine has no compression.  The cylinder still pumps the same volume of air - so pumping losses are still the same, but doesn't have the compression and similarly doesn't have the 'reclaimed' power on the downstroke after compression.  It's quite remarkable, the starter spins the engine over twice as fast using half the current - sounds like a turbine! This is why a hand crank engine has a decompression lever, to allow you to spin the engine up to cranking speed without the considerable power looses of the compression cycle (same amount of air is always pumped, even on decompression lever operation as that lever allows air in and out of the cylinder freely).

They theory behind *why* I would guess as follows:  A fair bit of energy upon compression is lost as heat and escapes through the engine.  Some of the compression escapes as blow by - the higher the compreassion the higher proportion.  On the down stroke the hot air from compression has had time to cool some and by the time the pistion gets to the maximum torque half way position the cylinder pressure may be half what it was on the upstroke at the same point.  Increased compression increases friction on the engine by placing greater loads on it.  There are also inertia losses from speeding up the air more and trying to push it into the cylinder head, where it 'piles' up, requiring a change of inertia and direction on the down stroke - all at the expense of power.  I guess there are frictional losses in the air as it's forced into the pre-cup that manifest as heat, a proportion of which is lost by conduction to the engine.

If one could have air going in and coming out at the same temperature and a block/head that had 0 heat transfer properties as well as engine internals which didn't increase friction as the load increases, then the higher compression shouldn't count.  Of course such an ideal engine doesn't exist.

As I see it, increased compression results in extra heat, some of which heats up the air in the pre cup and some of which is lost into the engine with corresponding loss of efficiency.  I think mfr's run them high as the efficiency loss may not be huge (I'm thinking 5% between as low as it will go and run compred to say 25:1) and it ensures cold starting running.

In trying to build an 'efficient' car, that possible 5% from a low CR, with around 5% tops from ceramic coating, 5% from aerodynamic mods, 3% from low friction fluids and 5% from narrower low resistance tyres may take my 71mpg and make it 87mpg ;-)  Add in a turbo and the increased efficiency it brings, or low resistance exhaust/ram air inlet/porting to work on pumping losses and perhaps some more?  Goal is 100mpg...  Remove brake vacuum pump and go electric, greatly reduced parasitic load there - spinning a brake vacuum pump at 1500rpm (camshaft speed, 3k engine) for 2 hours on the motorway when you don't use your brakes is a big load!.

Quote
As far as I know, the higher the compression ratio, the higher the efficiency


This is what is often said, the purpose of the thread is to challenge it.  I think I have made enough points so far, anyone with any more reasons 'why' a high cr is supposed to be more efficient? Given that a lower CR will perfectly heat, swirl and ignite the mix?  I go back to my point about the tdi's, why don't VW put the cr up to 25:1 on them?  I suspect because all they 'need' to ensure a good fuel burn is around 15:1, so they make it 18:! or something to ensure good starting in cold - knowing that any further increase just lowers efficiency and reduces hp and mpg as the power to do the compression and produce that heat which is lost comes from the power stroke, sapping the engine.
Freelance Mechanic specialising in Tdi motors and Veg-oil 2-tank conversions.

Reply #32May 23, 2007, 10:33:53 am

QuickTD

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2007, 10:33:53 am »
During cranking the starter has to deal with singular compression events, getting over the "humps" is quite difficult and takes considerable torque, hence the need for a powerful starter. This cannot be compared to the conditions at higher engine speeds. The flywheel inertia at higher speeds is sufficient to drive the crank over the "humps" and the energy stored in the compressed air is returned to the crank on the expansion stroke. Indeed there are losses from all of the points mentioned, so this is anything but perpetual motion, but the losses are not total, which is the point I was trying to make. The compression losses may begin to go exponential as the compression ratio and air heating increases. Single stage compressor efficiency does something like this beyond a certain point.

Reply #33May 23, 2007, 12:10:06 pm

jimfoo

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2007, 12:10:06 pm »
Although at higher rpm, wouldn't heating losses be less as the air has less time in contact with the cooler metal? I seem to remember a long time ago some one tested an all ceramic engine. I don't remember much else though.
Jim
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Reply #34May 24, 2007, 09:31:13 am

greg123

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2007, 09:31:13 am »
Well you can roll your car down a hill, engine off, in 3rd gear, with and without the exhaust valves cranked open (perhaps safer in a petrol as need them cranked open a fair bit to ensure no compression at speed) and notice the same result, far less drag without the compression.  This proves the point I think.  Alternatively we could slap a head on an engine with the pre-comp filled in, so very high compression, and see how well it rolled down a hill in gear.

Regarding the 'humps' when cranking - if the starter has put the enerty into a mix of inertia and gas compression, regardless of the speed if that energy is still there unless it has leaked away anywhere.  As you point out, there isn't enough energy released after the 'hump' of the compression, meaning net effect of high comp = high loss of energy.  I accept that this is multiplied at cranking speed due to there is more time for the compression gasses to soak heat away and cool down (lowering pressure for the downstroke) and blow by the rings/valve seats, however all this still goes on at higher speed, just not 'as' much.

Quote from: "QuickTD"
During cranking the starter has to deal with singular compression events, getting over the "humps" is quite difficult and takes considerable torque, hence the need for a powerful starter. This cannot be compared to the conditions at higher engine speeds. The flywheel inertia at higher speeds is sufficient to drive the crank over the "humps" and the energy stored in the compressed air is returned to the crank on the expansion stroke. Indeed there are losses from all of the points mentioned, so this is anything but perpetual motion, but the losses are not total, which is the point I was trying to make. The compression losses may begin to go exponential as the compression ratio and air heating increases. Single stage compressor efficiency does something like this beyond a certain point.
Freelance Mechanic specialising in Tdi motors and Veg-oil 2-tank conversions.

Reply #35May 24, 2007, 09:33:42 am

greg123

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2007, 09:33:42 am »
Yes, which is why losses at cranking speed will be up to 100% if you crank it slow enough (all the heat and compression goes away after a few seconds) but those losses are still around the 20-30% mark at normal operating speeds, 40-50% going out the exhaust and 20-40% coming out as useful power (depending on design, fuel used etc).

Quote from: "jimfoo"
Although at higher rpm, wouldn't heating losses be less as the air has less time in contact with the cooler metal? I seem to remember a long time ago some one tested an all ceramic engine. I don't remember much else though.
Freelance Mechanic specialising in Tdi motors and Veg-oil 2-tank conversions.

Reply #36May 24, 2007, 09:44:04 am

greg123

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2007, 09:44:04 am »
Just an update on the research so far, with members help and the time on the net etc (inc looking at some patents, Atkinson and Miller cycle engines etc) it seems to be to me that lowering the compression as far as it will go WITHOUT harming combustion (negating cold starting) can have UP TO 5% better efficiency (power/economy) and similarly a FULL engine treatment of coatings can have UP TO 5% improvement.

So there would be between 5% - 10% to gain from coating (in bulk probably about £100 per engine, to us £300 per engine it can be had for) and difficulties cold starting/starting when engine gets 'tired' a bit.  Which probably explains on both counts why mfr's don't do it much, though they are starting to now.  3 hybrids are running Atkinson/Miller cycles (Toyota and Subaru among them) and I read on this board Subaru are running ceramic coated piston tops from factory now - though that's far from a full internal coat (probably more to protect piston crown than to aid efficiency since most WRX buyers don't buy it for fuel economy....).

Just my 2p so far for those interested ;-)
Freelance Mechanic specialising in Tdi motors and Veg-oil 2-tank conversions.

Reply #37May 24, 2007, 03:00:36 pm

lyeinyoureye

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2007, 03:00:36 pm »
We'll probably start seeing far more miller/atkinson cycle since it really, really helps w/ low load efficiency in gasoline engines, which is where they really can't compete w/ diesels, and the most gains will be seen. Peak efficiency hasn't changed much over time and the difference between gas/diesel there is negligible.

Reply #38May 26, 2007, 05:44:50 pm

rwest1

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2007, 05:44:50 pm »
A good discussion covering a lot of the theoretical aspects of CR and its effects on efficiency and performance.  From a practical standpoint I can offer a bit of anecdotal information. Having had a number of VW diesels… of all the na’s, the best running (acceleration and hill pulling), and the highest mileage (55mpgUS road car), was a well-worn 1.6 Jetta. The compression centered closely around 350psig and the pump was set to .045” at several service cycles (so it wasn’t a fluke adjustment). It’s Achilles heel as you might imagine was cold starting; it was a bear to get going when the temperature was at or below freezing! Used a block heater at home to minimize the problem, and finally ended up using an Orpin switch to crank with 2 batteries in series, couldn’t find any hi-performance starters in those days. Drove the thing on many long trips, for a lot of miles, never having a problem other than it used oil at a qt/800 miles. Couldn’t guess what the effective CR was… but from what I’ve read and experienced I believe lower CR (within limits) will result in more power and better economy (for IDI VW’s ), if you can solve the cold start problem (move to Miami?). Regards

Reply #39May 27, 2007, 02:18:14 pm

greg123

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2007, 02:18:14 pm »
That's particularly interesting as if the engine is well worn it will lose efficiency from blow by and leaking past the valves.  So if you are getting good economy one could expect even better if it was done via a bigger pre-comp chamber without the associated losses of a worn engine.


Quote from: "rwest1"
A good discussion covering a lot of the theoretical aspects of CR and its effects on efficiency and performance.  From a practical standpoint I can offer a bit of anecdotal information. Having had a number of VW diesels… of all the na’s, the best running (acceleration and hill pulling), and the highest mileage (55mpgUS road car), was a well-worn 1.6 Jetta. The compression centered closely around 350psig and the pump was set to .045” at several service cycles (so it wasn’t a fluke adjustment). It’s Achilles heel as you might imagine was cold starting; it was a bear to get going when the temperature was at or below freezing! Used a block heater at home to minimize the problem, and finally ended up using an Orpin switch to crank with 2 batteries in series, couldn’t find any hi-performance starters in those days. Drove the thing on many long trips, for a lot of miles, never having a problem other than it used oil at a qt/800 miles. Couldn’t guess what the effective CR was… but from what I’ve read and experienced I believe lower CR (within limits) will result in more power and better economy (for IDI VW’s ), if you can solve the cold start problem (move to Miami?). Regards
Freelance Mechanic specialising in Tdi motors and Veg-oil 2-tank conversions.

Reply #40May 27, 2007, 02:31:45 pm

tylernt

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2007, 02:31:45 pm »
Man, you guys make me keep waffling. The improved MPG of a lower C/R really temps me to enlarge the prechambers, but I'm afraid of losing cold start performance (not on the new engine, but 150Kmi later). Maybe you could pull off a 20:1 C/R with Total Seal rings for longevity?
'82 Diesel Rabbit, '88 Fox RIP, '88 Jetta (work in progress)

Reply #41May 27, 2007, 03:22:11 pm

greg123

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2007, 03:22:11 pm »
This is based on guestimate, but with a fresh head (eg valves ground in) and new rings and a honed/rebored cylinders, you should have excellent seal for at LEAST 100k if you change the oil.  I'm thinking 20:1 should be fine, unless you live in a VERY cold climate, where a block heater would do the job for clean home starts.  I'd be nervous of it starting easily at 17:1, I'm afraid this is a case of 'try it' and 'be brave' lol.

Quote from: "tylernt"
Man, you guys make me keep waffling. The improved MPG of a lower C/R really temps me to enlarge the prechambers, but I'm afraid of losing cold start performance (not on the new engine, but 150Kmi later). Maybe you could pull off a 20:1 C/R with Total Seal rings for longevity?
Freelance Mechanic specialising in Tdi motors and Veg-oil 2-tank conversions.

Reply #42May 27, 2007, 04:53:02 pm

rwest1

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2007, 04:53:02 pm »
libbybapa

How was the performance of your low CR. motor?

Reply #43May 27, 2007, 06:49:15 pm

tylernt

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2007, 06:49:15 pm »
Ok, this is starting to sound good. What's the best way to reduce the C/R to 20:1? Turn the precup interior on a lathe?
'82 Diesel Rabbit, '88 Fox RIP, '88 Jetta (work in progress)

Reply #44May 28, 2007, 06:41:11 am

Mark(The Miser)UK

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IDI - effect of reducing compression ratio on hp & mpg
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2007, 06:41:11 am »
Quote from: tylernt
Ok, this is starting to sound good. What's the best way to reduce the C/R to 20:1? Turn the precup interior on a lathe?


what does the thicker gasket give us? Or can we use 2 togeather  or is there something in Cu sheet?

Reading my previous postings (other threads)  My most economic TD by far has lower compression. How much? I dunno  but definitely easier to turn by hand and with old injectors gave 62mpg imp on a run compared with 48mpg best with a 'good condition' 'burn no oil' 100k engine. I make that ball park 30% more economic. Only other difference was the larger exhaust from a 5 ganger Quantum.  Divide by 1.2 to get US wine gallons :mrgreen:
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