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how well do auto's hold up to moded motors?
by
cadmo
on 30 Dec, 2004 15:35
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just as the subject says how well do they hold up? i have a 95 gulf 5 spd and thinking about getting rid of it to get one with auto. but with a heavly moded engine will they hold up and also what about the tdi's auto will it hold up to the extra power
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#1
by
chrissev
on 30 Dec, 2004 19:38
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just as the subject says how well do they hold up? i have a 95 gulf 5 spd and thinking about getting rid of it to get one with auto. but with a heavly moded engine will they hold up and also what about the tdi's auto will it hold up to the extra power
hahaha. Like using a fragile glass vase to hold up the end of your sofa when the leg breaks.
Seriously though. Auto transmissions are fragile. They are very sensitive to overtorqueing (caused by moded engines) and to excessive speed (over 180km/hr, say goodbye to your transmission). They just aren't designed for that. Stick with a standard and you will have no trouble. They are bullet proof and last forever no matter what you do to them.
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#2
by
RAMMSTEIN
on 30 Dec, 2004 20:05
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chrissev, I'd suggest to read my reply in the TDI section and also read a lot on TDIclub, because you don't have a clue what you're talking about. :roll:
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#3
by
srivett
on 30 Dec, 2004 21:35
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If you aren't producing any more power than a TDI the TDI transmission should be fine on an IDI.
Steve
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#4
by
Dr. Diesel
on 31 Dec, 2004 05:17
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i've often wondered about the older A2 3 speeds. They seem to be carved out of stone. Not great on fuel economy, but fairly basic. Turbos and autos go together quite well. It's speculation, but I bet an older 3 speed would hold up ok.
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#5
by
QuickTD
on 31 Dec, 2004 06:46
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The 1.9TD is pretty rare with the auto but they were built. On the upside it has a taller overall ratio in high gear than the manual. It is partially electronic but from what I've seen it is fairly simple, just a kickdown switch, throttle position sensor and a trans control module. I'm sure the trans is pretty tough.
The TDI slushbox is fully electronic and works in trandem with the TDI ECM. It would be difficult to use in an IDI application. Also, only the A4 cars were offered in auto. I've never heard of any VW auto failing. It would probably sap a fair bit of power though. You would want to massage the motor a bit.
That said, I can only think of one practical application for the slushbox, that would be in a drag car... :twisted:
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#6
by
chrissev
on 31 Dec, 2004 20:02
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chrissev, I'd suggest to read my reply in the TDI section and also read a lot on TDIclub, because you don't have a clue what you're talking about. :roll:
hmmm, well I'll just believe you then. I used a Ford pickup truck as a work truck that, with 400,000km on its original engine, had went through 5 auto transmissions from the time it was new. The auto transmissions couldn't handle the load of the cargo (tires) that the truck was carrying. Also owned an oldsmobile that blew up its transmission on the highway passing a truck. And a dodge that's auto tranny self destructed under kickdown passing, again on the highway. Maybe VW auto transmissions are different. Personally I'd never own another automatic after the crap I've been through with them. They are the most fragile transmissions I've ever had experience with.
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#7
by
Blades
on 31 Dec, 2004 20:55
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i've often wondered about the older A2 3 speeds. They seem to be carved out of stone. Not great on fuel economy, but fairly basic. Turbos and autos go together quite well. It's speculation, but I bet an older 3 speed would hold up ok.
There's a guy in Ottawa, Jetta mk2 Coupe 2L 16v Turbo (tall block bottom end) mated to a Dodge Omni Automatic (was originally mated to a carbed 1.7L) I think it's because it's uberlong.
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#8
by
Patrick
on 01 Jan, 2005 04:03
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I'll preface this by saying everything I own is a standard, because I figure there's too much power (and economy) lost in an automatic. That said,Never broke an automatic when I did own them, and I've seen a lot of them go a pile of miles trouble free where I work. If you were dealing with GM stuff I'd say stay away from the early overdrive trannys, but other than that they're pretty tough.Got three at work in Ford F450's behind powerstroke diesels (real pigs BTW) with 150,000k on them and no trouble yet. These have dump boxes and plows on the front, and are too small for the work we do with them. No problems yet though. They are even buying autos behind big Cat motors in tandem plow trucks again, because we've got too many idiots that take clutches and driveshafts out with ten speeds. Most automatics are pretty tough nowadays. Biggest thing that happens to them is electronic problems, as well as lack of maintenance. Most people don't follow the owner's manual when it comes to oil and filter changes on a transmission!
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#9
by
RAMMSTEIN
on 01 Jan, 2005 09:39
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chrissev, nobody blew an auto tranny on a TDI yet. Not that I've heard of anyway...
My mother has a TDI auto stock, and 200 000 km it still runs like a champ!
My personnal choice is also standard, the only vehicule I would consider buying auto would be a Hummer H1. :wink:
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#10
by
jtanguay
on 02 Jan, 2005 03:26
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well if you think your car rattles with a standard tranny.. just wait till you put in an automatic! and hill climbing... Good luck! Both feet on the accelerator to hit 100 km/h or so.... (sadly enough its almost true!!!)
As for the torque issue. Use an older transmission... say 80-89ish. Anything newer will have crappier parts. My 87 golf gasser's transmission is still kicking... after all the abuse I've given it too!! Kickdowns on demand, 1st to 2nd shift is pretty rough now tho... If that thing is still running, then my guess is that anything a diesel can throw at it won't over stress it (shifting from 7k rpm in 1st gear etc etc... I don't think your diesel will be doing much of that right?) but I do understand that max torque coming from around 2k rpm might damage the tranny on a hard shift.
My main concern would actually be head gasket though, depending on whos driving this diesel. Because of the weird ratios in the auto tranny there will be a lot of vibrating, and engine pressure. A LOT more pressure than it would see with the smooth ratios with the good old std trannys
If this is for a lady driver, then it should be ok--no problems... excellent city driving, but maybe sluggish going uphill. Turbo helps uphill climbs tho I find. 3rd gear 50km/h 4th gear 70 km/h and she climbs with ease. If your car is turbo, then you might wanna find out the spooling speeds for your auto tranny after installing it (just so that you're not stuck doing 20 up a hill with a tranny thats under a lot of stress)
Another thing is why the heck did they put a 2nd gear in the 3 spd tranny. I think its something like 400-500 rpm difference between that and 3rd gear... The car would accelerate much quicker if the 2nd gear was closer to the 1st one... and I might have won a few more races with my golf!!!
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#11
by
cadmo
on 02 Jan, 2005 18:52
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Well if I can't get a auto tranny with an overdrive I don't want one! Im just getting sick of shifting every day on a comumeter car, I had my fun with my 86 Trans Am that I just sold, it had 425 hp and a 6 spd conversion with 4:10 gears, it was a blast the gulf just doenst bring the same enthusiasum and I can still drive my moms BMW Z3 if I want to have some fun with a stick.
So what im looking for is a td that came with an auto so it saves the hassle of converting or if all else failes finding out if theres an overdrive tranny that's not electronically controled like the tdi's
And I know an auto can hold up to lots of torque my dad has a 03 GMC one tone dully 4x4 crew cab with a duramax and a Allson 1000 thats hoped up with a 5 inch exhaust, cold air intake, 170 hp and 399 foot pounds of torque chip. So with 300 hp and 520 torque stock that = 470 hp and 920 foot pounds of torque on a stock tranny. Also that transmition moves the 8000 lb truck a 8000 lb 53 foot trailer with 2 boats on the trailer that are around 8000 lb between the 2 and 2 dune buggies that = 1000 lb. So that = 25,000 lbs on a stock tranny not to bad. Futher more on a new eposide of trucks that I just saw they showed my dads truck with a beefed up tranny pulling a tractor and masive dozer on its trailer totaling 125,000 lbs and his last truck a stock 95 GMC half ton 6.5 turbo diesel with a 4L80E moved (truck&trailer) 16,000 lbs regulary. So to sum it up auto's work.
And as far as fuel milage my transmission teacher says that new auto's are just a fraction worse than sticks. Auto's being so good from on demand tranny pumps vs older pumps that are constant. Also if you get some one agressive on a stick ie some one that like's to rev or have fun like we all do, by shifting a lot the sick will get the same or worse milage.
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#12
by
dieseltech
on 02 Jan, 2005 20:34
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chrissev, I'd suggest to read my reply in the TDI section and also read a lot on TDIclub, because you don't have a clue what you're talking about. :roll:
hmmm, well I'll just believe you then. I used a Ford pickup truck as a work truck that, with 400,000km on its original engine, had went through 5 auto transmissions from the time it was new. The auto transmissions couldn't handle the load of the cargo (tires) that the truck was carrying. Also owned an oldsmobile that blew up its transmission on the highway passing a truck. And a dodge that's auto tranny self destructed under kickdown passing, again on the highway. Maybe VW auto transmissions are different. Personally I'd never own another automatic after the crap I've been through with them. They are the most fragile transmissions I've ever had experience with.
thats your problem :shock: , "almost" all american automobile and light truck transmissions are junk, some of them can't even get 50.000 miles and some of them just make the 100.000 mark and a few proceed to 150,000 before going south, dodge caravans were on the crappy side, dont know how the new ones are but up untill the mid 90's there were a few good ones and alot of bad ones. although alot of this can be summed up to inproper maintnance, so maybe the trannys were good but could not tollerate not being serviced regularly, there were a few american autos that were close to bullet proof, very few, ford c6, gm 2 speed powerglide, thm400. only a few, by far the worst tranny i know of are german (sorry to say) but the mercedes 240d auto were junk, i replaced a ton of them in my uncles shop. now a vw 3 speed 010 unit is by far the most durable transmission i have ever set eyes on, 250,000 mile never changed fluid shifted like new, took 6k rpm neutral drops probably the rock hard cooper tires that saved that tranny ( i was a stupid *** in my teens) i had the car 5 years till the cis injection gave up and I thought it was time for an upgrade to a jetta diesel (too many speeding tickets with the gas golf auto the diesel kept me out of trouble)
i am building a 86 golf td and putting a 3 speed 010 auto in it just for ha ha's
I will let everyone know how it turns out, should be good.
chris
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#13
by
jtanguay
on 02 Jan, 2005 20:42
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well cadmo, good luck getting an auto tranny with overdrive
But hey look at the bright side, you're going from what... 10-15 mpg to ... say perhaps 50 mpg??? Thats bonus cash in your pocket!!! (is 10-15 mpg too generous for 425 hp??)
Of course a big GM transmission will withstand torque. The old VW tranny's are GM built I'm quite sure, since european versions never came with auto. They slapped an automatic transmission on there, and put the starter in a nice hard to reach area to piss everyone off (I believe the drive shaft has to be removed to get at it??? am I right about this?)
For cruising around town, the auto tranny would be cheap transportation, but on the highway she will suck back the gas for sure. I think the RPM @ 100km/h is around 3300 or 3500 (engine has no trouble hauling at this rpm, however the diesel has already maxed out its torque at say... 1800-2000 rpm)
as for the fun with the stick, if you have the dough for fuel go for it. In my opinion I get to my destination at around the same time as I did with my peppier gas golf--smooth slow acceleration will help stop oil burning as well. Bragging rights come into play as well. I have friends who pay around $300 a month for insurance... and I pay $150. The savings might not seem like much to some people, but for those of us with limited budget, these cars are simply affordable for all. Thats just insurance. I laugh at my friends when it costs them $20 a week in gas--I think it cost me on avg. $10 a week, daily driving. With an auto tranny, city driving might cost the same. I think the low RPM torque may take advantage of the long gears(as long as she shifts early enough)
And about the rattling... My gas golf rattles in drive... Quite annoying too... so it goes without saying that a diesel might drive you a little 'nuts'.
I would definitely try it out though. What your teacher said is correct. The new saturn's come with 5 speed automatic tranny, which is as good and probably better on fuel than a 5 stick (stop and go for sure). Problem is that they are 2003 models and up (i think) Anything older isn't as great.
If you can somehow manage to get a 4 spd tdi tranny to work in your older idi, tell me how you did it!! hehe all those wires coming out of it, maybe someone could help create a tranny controller that would regulate gear changing mechanically??? Would be a major job though
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#14
by
jtanguay
on 02 Jan, 2005 20:50
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hehe nice Dieseltech!!! Same reason I changed from gas golf... Although I haven't gotten any tickets, I've came close to wrecking it (those stock brakes really don't do the engine justice) I don't think it is possible to get a ticket in a diesel jetta (lol... to get a ticket, I have to be able to keep up with the cops!!! those maniacs!! haha)
I would love to hear how your automatic swap works out though. But I would also love to try putting a newer TDI transmission into an older IDI. All that would be needed, is a controller... Could possibly make it somewhat like tiptronic??? Do the newer TDI tranny's bolt with the older IDI's??
Would be real COOL!!!