TDI-M pump setup

[4BTA4ME]

I'd like to find out if my 1985 non-turbo pump (0 460 484 031) is suitable for building a Tdi-M from my ALH engine. The ALH engine pump number is 0 460 404 977 R700. I'm interested in finding out what parts would be swapped over to the mechanical pump and what parts I would need to find; assuming that I can use the 1985 pump.
Also, how much more H.P. is the 4BT pump making than what I can get out of the 1985 pump?

[RabbitGTDguy]

Depends on how complex you want to get...

You can swap the camplate, plunger, hydraulic head assembly, timing internals,  etc. from the TDI pump to the IDI pump...find an LDA, etc. etc.
 
or you can really get fancy and use the larger drive unit from the ALH pump swapped into the IDI pump housing (requires some machining to accomodate larger shaft (20mm vs. 17mm), shave the timing piston down and still swap all of the above as well...

However, DI pumps...the TDI units specifically and many of the DI mechanical pumps when you look at the housings are "reinforced" more in some ways...however, I don't think anyone on here as complained of problems with cracking housings, etc. using the older pump housings. If memory serves me correctly someone recently on here did the aboved mentioned...that is a mTDI pump build using the larger shaft, etc. swapped into the older IDI pump housings and such...

Both styles of pumps require work and calibration to do them correctly...and the name of the game is CLEAN.

Pump H.P. isn't a number that I think can be just "given" out...it depends on your particular engine setup, nozzles particularly, turbo specs, etc. etc. etc. I suppose a HP estimate could be made but it'd have to be run on a test machine more than likely. The ease of the 4bt pump is "less swapping", and it is DI specific...but it still involves work to get it there. Both can be built nicely and supply anywhere from stock power all the way up to 200hp or so...once again, depending on your setup.

Joe

[4BTA4ME]

1."shave timing piston down"- Turn down the diameter?
2."Use the larger Drive unit from the ALH"- Does this get you more fuel pressure?
3. "Machining to accomodate larger shaft"- Drive shaft? sounds like I can do this with a reamer in my mill.
4. "Calibration" of pump- Injection timing or injection breakover pressure?
5. "Nozzles"- any suggestions on which nozles might be appropriate and safe for an older IDI pump? Rough estimate of pricing?

Any suggestion for models and prices of an aftermarket divorced fuel pump back at the "gas" tank?

[RabbitGTDguy]

1."shave timing piston down"- Turn down the diameter?
2."Use the larger Drive unit from the ALH"- Does this get you more fuel pressure?
3. "Machining to accomodate larger shaft"- Drive shaft? sounds like I can do this with a reamer in my mill.
4. "Calibration" of pump- Injection timing or injection breakover pressure?
5. "Nozzles"- any suggestions on which nozles might be appropriate and safe for an older IDI pump? Rough estimate of pricing?

Any suggestion for models and prices of an aftermarket divorced fuel pump back at the "gas" tank?

1. No, diameter is not turned down...the top of the piston is shaved to increase travel and hence increase timing advance... Tin Tin will tell you...mTDI's like advance...
You can also swap the TDI pumps timing piston and internals as well...

2. the larger diameter mainshaft of the pumps is a "safety" measure. there is a debate out on it...many have run mTDI's and big IDI pumps without issue using the 17mm (smaller shaft...your IDI pump), others have not and have had the smaller unit snap. The larger 20mm shaft is a safety measure for increased torque on the mainshaft as well as the injection pressures that are higher in the DI engine. Not required...but a nice safety measure...and my philo is to do it once...do it right...so...
It does not increase injection pressures...

3. Sounds good..

4. Pumps are calibrated on pump test machines by bosch...the other method of testing is just setting it up on your car... injection pump timing is part of it...the indexing of the throttle shaft (you keep this in the same place when removed) is part of it, making sure internal components are torqued to spec and shimmed correct (i.e. plunger), etc.

5. Umm...safe, well...if the pump is built right you can run what you want. You need the pump to produce the fuel you need as per what your looking to get from your motor...then consider nozzles...
 Which nozzle size depends on where you are going with your motor, etc. Also...quality is to be considered. There are nozzles out there for about $100-150 if you want them... then there are nozzles out there for 220-385.00. Quality does make a difference and in this case...size does too.  If it isn't...you can still run what you want. Stock TDI injectors from the 1z/AHU motors are set at 190bar.... ALH units...220bar.
Check out ebay and www.tdiracing.com for the lower cost nozzles and www.kermatdi.com for the more expensive units and read/research about what each particular brand has (or may not have) to offer. Nozzle design is very important...  there are many testimonials here, as well as over on www.tdiclub.com as to experiences with different brands and such.

There are alot of considerations here. I'd suggest maybe digging a bit more into the operation of the pump, etc. and how/where you want to go with things for a better understanding. Naming "what something costs" can get pricey... and you could be dissappointed in the end (in that you may end up with overshooting how much you thought it'd cost..)

In all...expect to pay 150-385.00 for nozzles...depending on the quality, etc...
100.00 if you need to reshim your injectors, or 60-100 to have pop testing and shimming done (large injectors need to be reshimmed)

the pump...expect to pay anywhere from 400.00-1300 to get something setup up. Depends on what you have to start with, where your going, who is doing it and what you want to do... core pumps add up, used pumps, etc. etc. The list goes on and on...
There are a couple really good builders on here offering services...Tin-Tin is recommended, Giles is there... there are DIY'ers too.. and there are DIY'ers that use these guys services too...

Trust me..I've been there as have many others.
Joe

[hillfolk'r]

been runnin my small shaft  /12mm pump on my tdi for almost 30k now.....
and probably another 30k on the previous idi engine ihad it on,with no problems
chances are,you wont break a shaft

[Tintin]

The 17mm main shaft is very good, I built several pump with 17mm shaft, (AAZ pump) but only 10mm M-TDI pump, and I ever have problem,  the drive pin for the came plate on the 17mm or 20mm shaft it's identical,  the only thing that I think who can occur with 17mm, it is the premature wear of the shaft busching,  probably around 100000KM or more.

For the timing piston, the best it's to use the AAZ system or if you have the electronic TDI pump, this system run well too.

[RabbitGTDguy]

Martin...

Do you remember who I am talking about when I say that there was someone on the forums that was doing the 20mm mainshaft swap into the IDI pump housing? I remember reading it, but haven't dug for it. I believe you posted in the thread as well...

See Lots of options...finding a AAZ pump would be a good ticket! But no really, there are alot of opinions here and in between but it all depends on what you have to start with and where you want to go with it.

Joe

[Tintin]

yes yes, I remember, here the post:    http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6995&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

It have there much very useful information in this post to make a M-TDI pump.

[ezekiel]

me personally, I found a Cummins 4B pump (NOT 4BT, 4B) on eBay for $30 shipped, should be on its way.

I looked at the number, turns out its a 10mm pump head, I'm hoping it's still direct-injection and I can pull the camplate and pump head out of it and put it into the AAZ pump I have.  Not planning on huge power, so I figure 10mm should be fine, since that's what stock TDIs are running.

[4BTA4ME]

Thanks everyone for taking time for the primer instructions. I need to read my Bosch rotory injection book again. Any sources for the procedures on disasembly of the pump and torque specifications?
   My build goal on this project will be to prepare the engine with the mods that enable future power enhancements if I desire, but presently set up for good fuel effieciency with a target of around 55 mpg. I want to keep the ALH engine injectors in for the time being. Is this an easily attained MPG goal with the tdi-M while still getting nice power?
Currently known project issues I need to deal with are:
1. A better clutch since I already have the engine out. Would a VR6 clutch be in order for this?
2. ALH Engine to my ABA car drive shaft fit. Any changes needed?
3. Engine mount differences? Convert engine to ABA mounts, or convert car to ALH mounts?
4. Aftermarket fuel pump external from tank. Recomended pump for this?
5. Replacement intercooler for one pancaked in accident. I have two large Saab intercoolers laying around that were restrictive when I tested them on my 4BTA. Have to see if one of these will fit.
6. Remove the Broken EGR. Eliminate?
7. Turbo lubrication line. Why are people tapping into the oil pan with this line?
8. Variable turbo vane converted to mechanical? Any benefits in economy and performance benefits in doing this instead of just locking it in one position?
9. Shift cable needs to be converted from ABA to ALH style. Cable style? Any unusual parts to change here like shift tower base or is that one whole assembly?
10. Cracked intake manifold. It's slightly folded over at top and creating interference with oil filler cap. Can I TIG this aluminum casting after I straighten it?
11. Exhaust tie-in into 2.0L gas engine ABA exhaust. I sawed off my ALH pipe 12" from turbo flange to get engine out of car. Have some of 1.5" and 2.5" 316L tubing laying around. Suggestions?
12. EGT monitor. My brother is an electrical engineer and has been made LCD pyrometer monitors. Maybe one of those in the dash like I did on the 4BTA truck project.

[RabbitGTDguy]

1. Yes, a VR clutch would be an improvement over the stock TDI unit...and def. an ABA unit...talking clutch surface area alone... a 02a/02j style unit is 228mm (flywheel) and a stock 020 style ABA setup is 210mm.
2. No, shouldn't be any driveshaft issues...
3. Mounts are specific to the platform... the ALH will bolt into the MK3 mounts without too much issue. I don't see the point of using the MKIV style ALH mounts in the MKIII when there are easier and more efficient options...
4. Your MKIII car will have a factory pump in the trunk....it would be more than adequate to use...given you clean it out, etc. etc. prior to use with diesel...
5. ok...lots of room in the MK3 to fit a decent intercooler of whatever you'd like
6. Yeah...you can elminate EGR, but will you pass emissions tests and what are the laws of your area on converting a car from gas to diesel?
95+ here anyways are subject to emissions testing, though...they can still be converted...  I'm glad I have the b3 that'll fall out of this category when I convert it next year.
7. They aren't tapping the oil pan for this...the turbo needs oil to lubricate its bearings...there is a supply line that is usually run from the oil filter flange to provide oil and then a drain line that comes off the turbo and is fed to the oil pan or the engine block for oil drainage from the turbo...
8.I suggest reading up on the benefits of a VNT in the first place. Locked down you would spin the turbo out in no time flat and would easily ruin it. VNT's are variable aspect ratio turbos...or they can vary the amount of air they can compress and flow. The turbo acts like a small, fast spooling turbo in the low end and as RPM's, fuel, etc. increase the vanes on the compressor side open up and make the turbo act more like a larger unit...
Its kind of the best of both worlds. I'd stick to a smaller wastegated unit if you just want things "locked down" or don't want to get into the complexities of creating a mechanical control for the vanes. There are a few variations that people have done out there. Namely Jake on his dad's VNT-15 setup IDI TD that he made a vac. operated vane setup with and a really nice and proving to be efficient one that  made here as well. The linkage setups seem to yield the "best" control apart from actual electronic control. Once again...search the forums as there is alot of good info that is already here and has been talked about. There were rumors out there of someone that had made a standalone electronic system made just for "running" the VNT acutator electronically using a couple very simple signal inputs...I haven't seen anything else about it.
9. an ABA MKIII car does not have "shift cables" from what I have ever seen. They use the 020 transmission which is specifically a "linkage" style transmission. They are two totally different beasts. The 020 is a cable operated clutch with a "solid" linkage shifting setup whereas the 02a/j style units are a cable driven, hydraulic operated clutch (though the euro version did have a cable clutch). Conversion requires you to remove all 020 linkage setup back to the shifter in the cabin and you then must install the complete 02a/j style transmission, w/ shift tower as well as the cable shift shifter box as well. Mounts should exist in the MK3 for this (especially 95+) as the VR6 version of the MKIII runs a 02a setup.
10. TIG welding cast is tricky from what I have heard...though, I am not an expert welder yet...just starting out myself. But...it can be done.
11. I don't know if you'd want to use a stock ABA exhaust...if its an upgraded unit...then great but the exhaust is one of the first improvements you can make on any car/engine setup be it gas or diesel. If you have tubing and the skill to make your own...use the old as a mockup and build it. If you "tie in" to a stock exhaust...make sure its at least the size of the stock TDI  exhaust (which it should be...i think they shared a similar "stock" setup)
12. That'd be cool...not really required until you get into serious tuning and/or upgrades with the car (i.e. more fuel, boost, better exhaust, intake, etc. etc. etc.) but its a nice safety measure to have in a diesel setup.

Ok...thats my take...
Sounds like you have some work to do...
Have fun!

Joe

[4BTA4ME]

1.Can I use the parts from a non-turbo 1985 IDI engine into a 4BT pump to make my Tdi-M from my ALH Tdi? I don't have an IDI TD pump.
2.I Would also like to know if I can use the LDA from the 4BT and modify it for use.
3. Does the four constant pressure valves from the 4BT pump transfer over to the ALH pump? Are there any issues with blowback or anything else I should be concerned with here?
4. Would I be able to get the same fuel economy from the 4BT pump that I got with the ALH 02J pump using the 02J injectors?

[RabbitGTDguy]

1. A few of them...not a whole lot...
2. Yes, the 4bt cover can be modified for use given you are careful in swapping some of the parts.
3. The 4bt distribution valves that I had weren't any different than the TDI ones from what I could tell... I know there are some others out there though.
4. Your confusing platforms and parts designations.... an 02j is a transmission, not an engine code or anything similar. They don't have anything really to do with each other than to say that the ALH you had in particular had manual tranny injectors to start with. MPG will really depend on your foot and the floor. If you use the cummins pump with the 12mm head and stock injectors..your making ALOT of work for the pump unless you get larger nozzles, etc.
With the 12mm head you can expect a little less in fuel mileage. If you use the cummins pump base with the ALH pumps 10mm head you have, then you can expect probably around the same mpg as the electronic pump...with 2 mpg or so I imagine. Once again...depends on your driving habits...
Also, there is the platform that your installing into to take into account too. MKIV TDI (which the ALH came in) is quite the heavy beast...55mpg rating... with more modding to the motor (mechanical 12mm pump, etc. etc.) but in a lighter platform, you can expect to possibly not see that "mpg" drop that you might otherwise because of the weight that has been lost, etc. Then...there are aerodynamics that come into play.

Most will tell you on here...it depends how "in" to the pedal you get.




Joe