Camplate swap ?'s

[therabbittree]

Well I think blake and I found out what the funny timing problem I've had with two of my tdi m pumps was ..They both had the same big cam plate.. a DE605.. we changed it for a HD374 and it is timeable  now that was the only change..argh took a while to figure it out ..but only 30 mins to swap it out ha..it runs decent..that big camplate de605 is really good when you get the timing right.. got to do it by  ear....  you can't time that plate with the dial indicator.. for some reason  even spill porting it was weird, not flowing when it should have, at the normal spots.. any how ..any one have any weird cam plate issues like that?..both the hd374 and the de605 camplates are from 4bt cummins. The 605 one was a higher hp rating and it has a little more lift..although it is more anglular at  the top of the humps..ha.
 How man of you run the small spring under the cam plate? I didn't this time..most of the pumps I take apart didn't have em . They are more of a pain in the butt to build.
Later,
Deo

[Tintin]

I agree to build a  M-TDI pump is very difficult to obtain big HP (over 150HP) dynoed the mine at 164WHP at 30 psi, and hummm!!! it's not enough for all the effort that I put in my pump.

I made several set-up of ''M-pump''  for tdi and it's really difficult to find the compromise adjustment for dynamic timing advance, the timing it is the secret in this type of assembly

I ever installed the spring under the cam plate, that does not seem to me to be very important,  probably that the pump is noisier with high RPM without this spring, or the cross cube can broken??   i dont know ??

Concerning the initial timing with a dial gauge, with a aggressive came plate profile it is difficult also has to fall on the good value, the dial gauge is very very sensitive to the least movement of crank shaft, it have a importante thing  there to take into consideration, different head have different pre-stroke and that influences the timing, and at least is necessary to have the good dimension of shim for the cote ' ' K' '

With different model of plungor, the timing is never identical, with 10mm I puts 0.60mm and the engine is noisy, with other 12mm I puts has 1.00mm and it is less noisy.

Which kind of power that gives last the 3200RPM?  Does that seem to drop or remain linear?

Do you have a pic of your came plate profile?  i'm very curious!   in the (secret) french section i posted dozen of different TDI came plate profil, ford transit, fiat, kia, clio, cummins,  etc.....

[RabbitGTDguy]

I have to admit, timing the m pump has been very difficult. Even though i can get my dial indicator to work, etc. The timing specs...say going off of what an IDI times out at, or what  TDI would statically, etc... it all has its own particular setup that works the best. Also... I'm not convinced that shaving an IDI timing piston is the best way to go about setting up the time. Currently right now I just have the cummins setup in there but I've got a TDI advance piston and cover setup I'll be swapping in this winter. Just in a visual comparison, the TDI cover is much more like a cummins DI timing piston cover, its MUCH deeper than an IDI one just visually looking at it. Also, my particular cummins pump that I'm using as the base as a double timing spring setup in the timing piston area...very interesting
The best way to go about timing thus far has been by ear, with the gauge there just for reference. I feel that the cummins pump tends to pull full advance earlier than a TDI pump...probably because the cummins pump is designed for a much lower revving cummins motor. Makes good sense. Complete swap of the timing mechanism should alleviate this, the winter will tell. I can tell you though that the motor is much more noisy when advancing towards 1.00mm or more than I'd like it to be, especially once you start revving it lower in the RPM range. Engine seems to like it once you get to where the pump should be going to full advance...
I'm not sure which plate I have in the pump exactly either. I'm waiting for the dead of winter to finally come here before I start ripping into the motor for winter upgrades, but this will be one thing that'd be interesting to check. Also...it could be useful for each of us to take pictures of our particular camplate profiles...
In a general comparison of my complate vs. a TDI camplate I remember back when I built the pump...i remember that the cummins one looked like it had about 20% more lift than the TDI one right off... this was my 12mm cummins one vs. the 10mm TDI one.

A bit more noisy is the nature of the beast with the m motors... but finding the best timing range, camplate configuration, etc. will be the secret to some really good stuff!

Joe

[therabbittree]

I can take som epics and post em.. Have  afew apart know..i will take some pics today and repost em later
Thanks
deo

[andy2]

My 12mm 1.9IDI  camplate combo had to be timed by ear too.Part of the reason was due to the shims between the camplate and plunger as we did not have the proper shim to get 100% travel of the plunger(somthing like 95% anyways).There is 2 different types of head/rotor assemblies from what I gather,the older one(k type??) takes more time to setup due to shimming as far as I know(cummins application.).I had too retard the static and dynamic timing as the engine had too much advance.So setting up the 12mm pump compared to the 9mm was completely different in my case.

[andy2]

Deo,when you were spill timing those pumps and you said that it was not flowing when it should have been according to driveshaft location?The shimming is whats throwing that position off and requiring you to time by ear I believe.

I think If we both had the newer style heads that we would have less setup issues than to older heads.

[Tintin]

The best syteme that i found, it's a AAZ systeme with 2 spring and very long travel, comparable with that of TDI travel.

When the engine is noisy at low RPM and more silencer at high RPM,  is necessary to see for the pressure regulator to have a curve of timing proportional to the RPM,  there exists different type of regulator,  one have a smooth spring with bigger hole  and others have a harder spring with little hole, and etc....    it have better adapted model there, I have part number if that interests somebody.

Another very easy modification has to realize on the cummins pump, is to drill a hole for the load dependant (accelerator lever in relation to the timing curve),  when driving normally, the engine is quiet, and when floor the accelerator the timing goes up, and it have much power.

[Tintin]

I have pic for the pleasure of the eyes   :lol:  


La base,  came plate de 1600TD


1.9TD AAZ 1993-1994


1.9TD AAZ 1995 et +


X sara 1.9TD


FIAT 1.9 et 2.0L TDID (celle qu'on entend souvent parler)


Cummins DI 6BT (6cyl) pas interesante, mais pour montrer l'angle


1.9L VW TDI 1Z/AHU 90CV


1.9L VW TDI 1Z/AHU 110CV et 1.9L TDI ALH 90CV


Renault espace, scenic, megane 1.9L DTI 97-99 / land rover 2.5TD 98 / range rover 2.5TDI 92-98


Renault clio, megane, scenic 1.9TDI 2000-2001


Cummins 3.9L 4BT 11mm/12mm (DE374)


Ford transit 2.5D 88-91 et 2.5DI 91-94 (DE605)


Cummins 3.9L 4BT / chevrolet 4.0L (DE617)


Fiat Tempra, croma 1.9TDID 92-96 / Ford transit 2.5D 94-2000


kia Carnival 2.9L TD 98-2001 / Ford transit 2.4TD 2001

[hillfolk'r]

Deo,when you were spill timing those pumps and you said that it was not flowing when it should have been according to driveshaft location?The shimming is whats throwing that position off and requiring you to time by ear I believe.

I think If we both had the newer style heads that we would have less setup issues than to older heads.

it was spilling at all kinds of erratic times,never stopping correctly for injection
it would stop for a split second,then spill again within a few degrees
until the swap to the smaller cam plate was done
that camplate was too steep i think,ive never seen that happen before
(erratic spill timing,and not able to time it w/ the dial indicator)
my initial findings  leads me to set it up near the stock(1.6td) spec of 1.00mm  with the 12mm plunger

my pump guy said  i shouldnt have any problem setting the timing with a dial indicator,and i didnt

[RabbitGTDguy]

Thinking about this... it'd be nice to determine two things when it comes to camplates and our mTDI's that are out there...or camplate swaps in general...

1. What Bosch's break down is in the P/N's as to how you determine "what" camplate is in what pump without having to rip it apart
(Supposedly there is software out there that does this short of running it through a Bosch IP pump shop, etc..., but few have it...)

2. Determine which camplate would be the most optimal for our setups based on ALL of these options that exist out there.

Think about those that are selling mTDI converted pumps now, basically...converted from some other setup and in the 4bt pumps case, and even IDI hybrid pumps, etc. about the amount of variation in what the camplates could be vs. the engine setup they are going too. One could rarely and hardly make a claim on power as it would differ across the board unless the pumps could be calibrated beyond OEM specs *which few pump shops do...*   Anyways...was just thinkin out loud...

Joe

[Tintin]

I have a small text which I drew and translated directly of bosch:

''The cam plate influences the pressure and the duration of injection. the lifting of cam and the speed of lifting constitute the essential criteria. A specific adaptation of the conditions of injection must be carried out according to the combustion room and of the process of combustion of the various types of engines. a special profile of cam is defined for each type of engine, this configuration is then printed on the frontal face of the cam plate. The cam plate are thus not interchangeable between various injector pumps''.

I tested several type of cam plate, and the thing which I noticed, it is that, more it is aggressives, more it have power there, and more lift, that seems to me more power at high RPM.....