S-PAutomotive.com

Author Topic: pics of dem total seal rings  (Read 16448 times)

Reply #30November 22, 2006, 09:05:37 am

Slave2School

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 531
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2006, 09:05:37 am »
I'm just wondering why auto manufactures don't use these in cars already.  It can't be cost since an extra cm2 of material isn't going to add substantial cost.
Waiting for a bigger better diesel to come along.
2002 ford focme wagon

Reply #31November 22, 2006, 04:25:08 pm

scopefrfd

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 289
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2006, 04:25:08 pm »
I talked to Total Seal and the rep there says that they never have made a gapless top ring...either off the shelf or custom.

Hillfolk'r who did you speak too?  and do you have anyway of documenting that they did actually make a gapless top ring set?  

Total seal admitted that a top gapless ring is better than the 2nd gapless setup.  The only reason for the 2nd gapless has to do with the quality of rings available.

They also stated the Goetze rings are some of the "WORST" rings out there, which surprises me.  I've never had trouble with any factory ring, goetze, cofap, or mahle.  I always check the end gap to make sure they're within spec.  I'm just trying to squeeze the most hp out of a volvo D24T engine.

I have a nice set of perfect circle rings that I would like to have modified.

Reply #32November 22, 2006, 04:54:38 pm

RabbitGTDguy

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1274
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2006, 04:54:38 pm »
Seems like we are getting alot of different opinions and talk from total seal then...

As I already mentioned, I had the same conversation with the tech rep at Total seal as Hillfolk did...
...we don't make rings for this particular motor short of a custom job (was in the range of $300 or so for a complete set of theirs) and he said, besides, we couldn't even make as nice a ring as Goetze makes with their materials and tooling. Its best to send us an OEM set and have the TOP ring modified...just as he did. I had the same conversation about top vs. second as well and learned the same...

Now you found someone that said the Goetze rings were junk? Man...craziness... this is kinda what I'm talking about. If I look through all my stuff on the 1z build I have this info around from talking to the tech rep and also have quotes done off my old rings that they sent me in the mail...

I also, never have had a problem with OEM and I am starting to feel blue in the face from talking about it. Perfect Circle is a Kolbelschmidt or Goetze off shoot as well I believe if memory serves me correct. Isn't that branded through Worldpac or something like Victor Reinz as a remarked distributor of OE parts?

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #33November 22, 2006, 05:47:38 pm

scopefrfd

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 289
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2006, 05:47:38 pm »
The Perfect Circle rings that I have are actually for an audi 5000td.  They're a much stiffer ring than either Goetze or Cofab and the top ring is supposedly chrome or chromium.  The oil scrapper ring looks exactly like a Goetze, 2-piece design.

The Goetze rings I always thought were top of the line and I always use them on td's I build.  Cofab is a good ring for N/A diesels.  

Back to total seal...It makes sense to use a gapless ring on a diesel with 500psi static compression plus 20psi of boost.  The amount of blowby of just 5% would be alot of hot combustion gases getting into the crankcase.    

The problems I've always heard with total seal was at high rpm.  The gapless 2nd ring would unseat the top ring and make it flutter and loose it's seal because it actaully was producing a tighter seal over the top ring and pressure would build between the two rings.  

A friend of mine that does alot of domestic engines tells me total seal rings are very hard on the engine cylinder bores...they wear them out faster than an oem ring.  From his personal experience and I believe him, he has nothing to gain as I buy my parts from a wholesaler not him.  I do not know if domestic v8 blocks are a softer cast iron.  Maybe somebody can shed light on this.

The gapless top ring makes much more sense..since the top ring would   have a tighter seal...more pressure, more force on the ring to hold it tight to the piston and walls...the 2nd ring would hold back whatever slipped past the top ring.  

It would be great if the guys that are running total seals have or will do a compression test just to see if the static compression is the same or higher than stock specs.  I have an ALH tdi and it was making over 510 compression with 30K on it.  That's better than new spec so I know the factory rings have broken-in quite nicely.

I want to use a total seal ring because I want to run much higher boost and fuel over stock on a motor I'm building.   I'm trying to make the engine as efficient as possible.

Reply #34November 22, 2006, 06:06:12 pm

andy2

  • Guest
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2006, 06:06:12 pm »
A gapless top ring would cause more wear on the cyl bore than a gapless 2nd ring, This is just my idea on that.Having a gapless top would make the 2nd ring almost useless when compared to the gapless 2nd ringsetup.The gapless 2nd ring would only really seal off what the top doesn't.A gapless top would be doing to much of the sealing which would cause accelerated wear on the bore.Like I said just my 2 cent's on this but I think you'll see it makes sense.

Would be nice to know what total seal uses for my ringset??

Reply #35November 22, 2006, 06:36:46 pm

scopefrfd

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 289
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2006, 06:36:46 pm »
When I talked to total seal...they admitted the top ring setup is better.  If you look at all of they're new gapless ring sets...they almost all use a gapless top ring.  I would compare the 1st vs 2nd gapless rings discussion to the garrett t-3 turbos vs. the gt series turbos.  Old vs new technology.

Reply #36November 22, 2006, 07:34:56 pm

RabbitGTDguy

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1274
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2006, 07:34:56 pm »
this is all very interesting. Would be cool to see if total seal would "pull" something for us to confirm things and put down conflicting data.

Problems with blow by i have seen and/or benefits of the gapless setup was higher rpm, high boost applications where blow by becomes a problem. In many of the cases, bore wear was accerated...

I have to say...running 25psi plus now lately on the crazy build mTDI, no issues, no compression losses and no worries about rings seating correctly. Afterall, hillfolk did get on me for not "getting on it", so I did... :)
Does that mean I'll run the total seals? Hmm...not at this moment, guess I'm firm to believe that the OEM rings lasted a long time and how well they were well within spec even at 126k made me all the more convinced... With a motor (the mTDI in the mk1) that'll probably see 50k miles in maybe 5 years...and thats a big maybe, def. not going to go there until more convincing information comes out... for now, I'm happy with the OEM rings doing their job and doing them very well without and adverse side effects as long as they are properly installed and broken in as with any good build...

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #37November 22, 2006, 07:56:08 pm

scopefrfd

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 289
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2006, 07:56:08 pm »
I agree, and I haven't had any issues with the oem rings...but imagine the oem top ring modified to be gapless..which total seal may do.   It's a patented process so Goetze, Mahle etc can't make them without paying a licensing fee to them.  You'd get your cake and eat it too.

I haven't done any calcs, but running say 500 static compression & 30psi boost with fueling to match, the pressure the rings see must be staggering.  There could be alot of potential hp slipping past that gap.

Plus the other thing I like about the gapless ring is you can actualy run more ring gap.

I've rebuilt a couple of engines...because the previous rebuilder did not check the end gap and it was too tight..the ring eventually cracked...no compression.

Reply #38November 25, 2006, 01:50:52 am

hillfolk'r

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1532
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2006, 01:50:52 am »
like i said in the im
i havent done a comp check recently
but blowby is the same as it ever was(nil)
and its got like 15-18k miles on it now with no problems
and it gets flogged every day
ask me how hard i drive it by the 2 or 3 broken transaxles ive  had happen lately :wink:
ill never rebuild any engine(for myself) ever again without using a total seal setup,even if its a weedwacker :roll:
Throttle cables ftw

Reply #39December 05, 2006, 10:57:53 pm

scopefrfd

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 289
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2006, 10:57:53 pm »
the saga continues...I sent total seal a set of perfect circle rings and a set of Mahle rings.  When they received them they said both sets have a cast iron top ring and they didn't want to cut them.  

The rings are 1.75mm and they do not have a steel ring in that thickness to cut or make.  What I find as strange is that they do sell a gapless top ring in ductile cast iron in a 1.5mm vw application no less.  Yet they don't want to the rings I sent them.  

So we came to a compromise, I bought a set of gapless 2nd comp rings and they're going to cut a set of the top rings I sent them.  

A little frustrating to say the least but hopefully worth it.

Reply #40December 11, 2006, 07:53:20 am

jtanguay

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 6879
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2006, 07:53:20 am »
i believe these rings would be great even in a non race application engine.  the rings would last a whole lot longer, and compression would stay higher longer.  

after all, these were created for longetivity in race applications right?

i will definitely send total seal my rings and get them done up. :)  i kinda have a hard time understanding how the top gapless ring will cause more wear on the motor?  does it press more on the bores or something???


This is how we deal with porn spammers! You've been warned.

Reply #41December 11, 2006, 09:52:56 pm

scopefrfd

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 289
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2006, 09:52:56 pm »
total seal rings arrived...I looked at the set total seal sells off the shelf and I swear it looks like a Cofle "C" on the ring.  


it's been coated which is nice...I'll take a closer look tomorrow and take a pic of the logo.

Reply #42December 12, 2006, 10:50:15 pm

scopefrfd

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 289
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2006, 10:50:15 pm »
Well, I did take a closer look at the total seal off the shelf rings, the 2nd comp ring.  Well it is in fact a Cofle Ring, it has the "C" stamped in it.  It's has a nice coating on it..but I was surprised that total seal modified a stock ring.

Reply #43December 14, 2006, 10:26:20 pm

hillfolk'r

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1532
pics of dem total seal rings
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2006, 10:26:20 pm »
the rings i sent them were made by goetze

ill have to find my invoice and just scan it i guess
 :roll:
cause I know  what i put in my engine
,and the time on the phone w/total seal
im thinkin "kevin in the sales dept" doesnt work there anymore :cry:
Throttle cables ftw