Electric choke on new injection pump?

[rbremiller]

I have a new " universal" 1.6l -1.9l NA injection pump with an electric choke.Anyone on how to wire this? How this is wired when stock? There is no advance lever.It runs great, starts hard; but doesn't leak like previous one.- rbremiller

[burn_your_money]

Do you have pictures of this "universal" pump? It sounds interesting

[RabbitGTDguy]

The electronic coldstart is effectively called a KSB device. My cummins setup currently is running this on my mTDI pump that I built. In operation, the KSB serves the same purpose of the mechanical advance cold start device and is "on" with a single 12v power source connection. On cars/trucks that used this device stock such as VE generation Dodge 12v's, cummins 4bt's and many others (i believe for VW's, aaz's had this in Canada and across the pond), most had a coolant sensor or intake manifold sensor that 'deactivated the valve/cut power to it once the engine reached a approriate temperature. If you wanted to set it up this way its possible to maybe utilize a coolant temp or glow plug sensor to run it or see exactly which sensor the stock AAZ's themselves use to operate this. Otherwise, you could always provide it with a switched 12v source if you didn't want to go the sensor route and have the ability to activate/deactivate it whenever you wanted. Power applied...the valve is active...power not supplied to it...its deactivated....


If you want...the mechanical cold start advance can be added...but it'd take some work in removing parts from the new pump and installing the mechanical cold start parts... can be done...

don't know if any of that helps...but my .02
I can provide you with detailed info on the KSB device if you like. I have it within my VE manuals...

Joe

[rbremiller]

I was hoping that might be the case.I've wired a 12v lead to it & a light and switch on the dash. I was cautious about using it for fear of friying it, in case it was a delicate low power thing. I set the initial timing @105 but didn't check it after a few revolutions.I loosened the pump this AM after tons.. of smoke,and pushed it to advance,tightened it down.It started after work today (yea!) I'm going out now to check where the timing ended up w/ the dial ind. This is a '91 jetta 275k; Frankenchanged @160k; was auto & gas, now 1.6d w/5 spd. diesel trans.; motor from '86.5 golf D(200k); has been in 4 different cars including a Dasher wagon & my beloved vanagon.Thanks for the rapid replies!            -rbremiller

[rbremiller]

Electric choke IS obviously just a description as I mentioned it had no advance lever and having pulled one out hundreds of times,I know it doesn't CHOKE the air but advances the timing.Perhaps we'll call it an electronic coldstart device; I like that. What I really need to know how this works.Does anyone have a Bentley wiring diagram that shows what kind of wire goes to it (color, size) and when it gets current?
  Mr. RabbitGTDguy that would be great if you could get me your info. I've tried switching power on and off and it made no difference in the running This is what it does now; If I set the pump timing to 110 it starts hard smokes badly. takes forever to warm up. The only way it started this afternoon is by loosening the pump;& pushing it toward advance which comes out to 130 on the dial. It starts and runs good, no smoke,idles high. I wonder if the advance is on all the time, it might explain the difficulty setting the timing.I've played with different timing for years and haven't seen this before. This is a brand new pump and I want to figure it out before it leaves me stranded.Maybe I'll back it down slowly until it runs bad & back up again.  Anyone have any info on this?
-rbremiller
P.S. I have pics. not sure how to post.

[rbremiller]

I could use the now vestigial "cold start advance" cable to "choke" myself with when it doesn't start.(':twisted:')Now, all seriousness aside, I haven't checked to see (hear) if the unit makes noise with current; or to make sure that there is continuity; but it's 12º outside here;my garage is the open sky;I'm by the woodstove;  tomorrow's another day.I've tried it with and without current and have an indicator light to show when it's on.
   
 -rbremiller

[rbremiller]

I ran a test lead to the unit on the starting assist.I touched the fuel cutoff solenoid and it made a distinct "click" as it always has; I touched the terminal on the KSB,and nothing.The fuel cutoff sparked a little, the KSB nothing.I checked for continuity and there is 27 ohms resistance.I'm open to any ideas on how this device actuates to know if it's working;how and when to set the static timing accurately.
    -rbremiller

[QuickTD]

A "real" KSB (the type used on a 4b/6b cummins) is actually a wax pellet thermostat coupled with an electric heating element. The unit is fed 12volt power whenever the key is on. The heating element heats the thermostat which slowly closes a valve and blocks a bleed in the low pressure side of the advance piston. This effectively cancels the advance after a few minutes of run time. If the engine is already warm, the thermostat has a head start due to engine heat so the advance is more or less cancelled.

 I suspect yours is this type of advance unit, so you can simply wire it to the fuel solenoid and the operation will be automatic.

 The 1.9TD uses a solenoid device to retard the timing at low speeds to reduce emissions. It is controlled by a speed switch incorporated into the glow time control module. It isn't used for cold starting, a 1.9TD still has the old cable actuated cold advance system.

[burn_your_money]

You can email me at [email protected] and I'll host the pictures

[QuickTD]

Thanks QuickTD, for the info.  Very helpful.  I have a 4BTA pump here, but haven't had a chance to inspect and decipher the function of the solenoid on the side.

Andrew

 Being a cummins pump it is probably not a solenoid, it'll be the thermostatic device I described. If it is a solenoid it will look exactly like the fuel shut off solenoid, bosch packages all solenoids the same. The thermostatic KSB device looks different, it's longer and skinnier.

[RabbitGTDguy]

I have the KSB info described in full if I can figure out how to post it from the full 4bt cummins service manual i have here in PDF...as well as the descriptions of operation between the KSB and electronic advance mechs from the VE Bosch manuals...

I personally will be getting rid of the KSB this winter there as well as a few other tweaks to the 4bt pump

Joe

[Tintin]

There are 3 different cold start model,  difficult for me to explain in English, I have pic to show different model.

First model:  it's a model with  mechanical lever which acts directly on the carrier roller, and the coolant temperature control the lever:
   

Second model: it's a cummins type,  like QuickTD explained:
 

Third model: like the second, but one can more complicated:
   

[HarryMann]

My pump (on a UK AAZ, not know if its an AAZ pump though) doesn't look like any of those..

It has a solenoid (long thin) down the head-side, with a short cable  running forwards, that operates a small lever on the pump side, that operates through a very small angle... all difficult to access being between pump and head.

Anyone happen to know what this might be? Another form of retard control or an auto enrichening device?

Current disconnected

Many thanks...

[ezekiel]

here's a couple pages from my bosch book.

Scan 1

Scan 2

If anyone could find any more info out, that'd be awesome, I'd like to add this to my AAZ before it goes in.

[Staley]

libbybapa
Please doublecheck, but it is my understanding that the solenoid on the side of the pump keeps pressure from one side of the timing advance piston when it is energized.  
Andrew

I think that you are correct. My pump had the timing selonoid on the side. Giles told me to hook up a jumper from the fuel cut selonoid to the timing advance selonoid.  When I sent him my pump for some tricking out
it was not there anymore.