Author Topic: Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.  (Read 9414 times)

Reply #15October 05, 2006, 10:55:14 am

anarchyx34

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2006, 10:55:14 am »
THanks for replying Giles. I hoped you would pop in. You're right, I was fooling myself, but I kind of instilled in my self a sense of "I can do anything."  Which is partly true when it comes to gasoline engines. On my other car I did quite a few things that baffles other peoples minds. But that's a different world, and over here I'm still just a newbie.

Now, I do plan on sending you my pump, which is probably going to need a rebuild soon anyway. I noticed some play in the front bushing/bearing when I installed the timing belt. Not much, just a little. I just dont have the money for a pump rebuild right now. But believe me, It's definitely in the works.

For now, I'm going to just try and get it "good enough" for the time being. After driving the car extensively for the past few days after my "modifications", it's really not all that bad. Throttle response is a lot nicer, and the high end power is enjoyable even though I lost something under the curve. In fact, driving on the highway is more pleasant because the power is "right there" under my foot. It may be a placebo effect, but whatever it is. The car is drivable for the time being.

Giles, what's your typical turn around time for rebuilding pump? This is my daily driver and would need to drive around my Mazda, which isnt exactly a 100% complete project yet. Also, I'd love to discuss pricing and options,  we can do that in PM/E-mail if you'd prefer.

Reply #16October 05, 2006, 11:17:15 am

QuickTD

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2006, 11:17:15 am »
The varying idle speed sounds like excessive residual pressure on the main governor spring. You need to reduce it further by backing out the residual screw.

 You really should try to free the screw so that it can be adjusted properly. To set it up properly you should back of the idle speed adjustment screw until the idle speed stops falling, then back out the residual until the idle speed is 50-100rpm below the normal idle, if it won't go lower than your desired idle speed you need to turn out the idle screw further. Keep going until you get the idle speed 50-100rpm below the desired speed with the residual, then reset the idle speed using the idle speed adjustment screw.

Reply #17October 05, 2006, 08:54:04 pm

bryanbryan89x

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2006, 08:54:04 pm »
I personally am very happy with the "gov mod" I did it on the caddy I had before, and now I have done it on my car.  If done correctly rpms drop plenty fine, also I have more power, and I seem to be getting better mpg, (I can also pull my four wheeler on the highway at 70mph, which is all I really wanted anyways).  Now for giles comment, So I suppose I am just fooling myself, Lets say your pump does not need to be rebuilt, nd you just want a little extra hp, which is what a lot of peoples cases are im sure.  you could send it to giles get your 20hp for 700 dollars last time I checked...
700/20= $35 per hp.

Lets say the gov mod gives you an added 7 hp...which is being a little conservative I fell.  Now you can go and buy the seal kit and washers...for something like $11.20

11.20/7= $1.60 per hp


Now I know what everyone is thinking, that the gov mod only gives half of what the giles mod gives, so in essence the value of each hp grows at an exponential rate, and the value of that exponent differs depending on that individuals value of a hp.  Well I guess if you race your veedub, than hp is going to be more valuable than to someone who just uses their car as a DD and wants to cruise with traffic on the highway.

So what I guess I'm trying to say is that gov mod is not "foolish" for some of us.
1981, Rabbit Car, 1.6, N.A.

Reply #18October 06, 2006, 02:01:15 am

jtanguay

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 02:01:15 am »
well anything diesel is expensive.  and Giles is right... hes got the proper tools, machines to properly calibrate your pump to run at peak efficiency.  if a Giles pump lasts you 300'000km, $900 isn't that much of an investment, considering VW stealership wanted $1600 for a brand new one  :shock: that may last you 300'000km, but with no balls, and 'okay' mileage.

the average joe trying to make his car go faster and by playing around with a pump will need to spend a lot of time/effort possibly $$$ to tune his/her engine and get it running the way he/she wants.  Giles offers a way to get what you want, and not hit/miss but dead on with great accuracy.  

If you like to tinker, tinker away, but beware the consequences of 'trial and error' methods.


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Reply #19October 06, 2006, 11:49:39 am

larry104

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2006, 11:49:39 am »
Libbypapa,
With all due respect, paying a pro do something isn?t necessarily a bad thing. I for one don?t know a whole lot about VW diesels, other than they are woefully underpowered stock, and that I value performance. I?ve worked on plenty of gassers and built street and racing motorcycles from the spokes up. There are some things, however, that I leave to the pros. For example, welding on which my life depends, and fussy motor work that requires certain expertise and special and expensive tools to perform, tools that I would rarely use otherwise. I think injection pumps fall into the latter category. Sure, I could have done the governor mod, and maybe even done it right. But as this thread illustrates, things don?t always go as planned.  And aggravation is not something most of us need any more of. There is also peace of mind. I know when I roll down the highway on my motorcycle that the steering neck isn?t going to break because my friend the welding guru welded it. Likewise, when I fire up this diesel in a few weeks, it?s going to run right.

Reply #20October 06, 2006, 11:55:38 am

jtanguay

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2006, 11:55:38 am »
yea... I think Giles' main secret is his kick ass calibrating equipment :)

the rest is the magic diesel dust he sprinkles on the inside to make it go faster  :twisted:

but seriously speaking.. if i had the secret knowledge i wouldn't share either... (if i was making a living by doing it)


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Reply #21October 06, 2006, 08:58:57 pm

Giles@PerformanceDiesel

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« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2006, 08:58:57 pm »
listen

i have put many posts to help people in the timing and installation of pumps and allot of other things. maybe nothing i can say will show u
that i'm very interested in this website and have allot of fun reading
and posting.

one thing that i will not do and cannot do is help every one do what
i do in the shop. for one i spent allot of time and energy exprimenting
on all the dif parts to give u guys the best results possible and as u
have read in all the posts people have written about my work.

i know that not everyone can afford to send me their pump for a
complete repair, there is always another option

i can always do some partial work for u all and set it up on the test
stand. it won't be as good as my full pump work but it will at least
work 100%.

hope this helps.

any body doing their own work can expect to have allot trial and error
but that's all about learning the ropes. i've been doing it for 20 years
and i never stop learning day after day.

my super pumps are also a work in progres and also get better too.

if anybody that i did a pump for more than a year ago wants me to
do some more up to date work i will give them a really good deal
pls pm me.

best regards your humble servent

Giles

Reply #22October 07, 2006, 02:11:10 am

deepmud

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2006, 02:11:10 am »
I have to agree with you. No one said "I wish Giles would post up how to do this or what we're doing wrong" - I did wish that :D but didn't post up.

However, he did let it out that it's POSSIBLE to make it work, which is, in itself, useful information. I actually felt encouraged to give it a shot at some point from that :D
the 1.9TD/Suzuki w/big tires guy
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Reply #23October 07, 2006, 10:15:31 am

macsdub

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2006, 10:15:31 am »
my pump guy said
"hey you can build pumps in your backyard all day,but until you have it calibrated on a stand,you can never duplicate what i can get that pump to do"
i dont care anyways about the governor mod
mines a tdi-m,and the party is over by 44-4500 or so,and it pulls like a bear till that point
so whatever my pump guy did,he did an awesome job
i have no complaints,and id have him build another one for me when/if i need another one
and i did learn alot  in tech school about the calibrating and stuff on a stand
it makes all the difference in the world in how they will run

i told my pump guy what i wanted to achieve,and he more  than delivered the goods
im not sure of the exact reason why but when he was building my pump he wanted to know my injector breakover pressure,im sure it has to do with something in the calibration setup
most of the time this is hilfolk'r... ive forgotten my password

Reply #24October 07, 2006, 03:44:44 pm

jtanguay

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2006, 03:44:44 pm »
Quote from: macsdub
my pump guy said
"hey you can build pumps in your backyard all day,but until you have it calibrated on a stand,you can never duplicate what i can get that pump to do"
i dont care anyways about the governor mod
mines a tdi-m,and the party is over by 44-4500 or so,and it pulls like a bear till that point
so whatever my pump guy did,he did an awesome job
i have no complaints,and id have him build another one for me when/if i need another one
and i did learn alot  in tech school about the calibrating and stuff on a stand
it makes all the difference in the world in how they will run

i told my pump guy what i wanted to achieve,and he more  than delivered the goods
im not sure of the exact reason why but when he was building my pump he wanted to know my injector breakover pressure,im sure it has to do with something in the calibration setup


yea the breaking pressure should have a lot to do with how the car will run.  It should affect diesel injection timing as well.  :)  man I would love to learn diesel mechanics and learn how to calibrate pumps...  8)


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Reply #25October 07, 2006, 04:45:21 pm

QuickTD

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2006, 04:45:21 pm »
Quote
my pump guy said
"hey you can build pumps in your backyard all day,but until you have it calibrated on a stand,you can never duplicate what i can get that pump to do"


Quote
you're just foolin yourselves if u think that u can repeat what i do
in the shop and on my test calibration bench just on the vehicle  


 I'm gonna call BS on both these statements. Anyone with reasonable mechanical skills and a clean work environment can modify a pump to do pretty much whatever they like. The seat of the pants dyno is far better than any calibration stand. Read everything here, get a copy of bosch's "diesel engine management, read it, understand it, and then go do it! Post the results for all to read.

Reply #26October 07, 2006, 06:35:35 pm

macsdub

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2006, 06:35:35 pm »
well my pump guy has done something to my pump i have never been able to duplicate on a bench
he added a ton of "gain"
this thing has so much throttle response
if you need some you can borrow some,lol
ive never ben able to do that on a bench,sowhatever he did,he obviously needed a stand to check somethinbg out to set it like that for me
most of the time this is hilfolk'r... ive forgotten my password

Reply #27October 07, 2006, 06:45:05 pm

QuickTD

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2006, 06:45:05 pm »
"Gain" is added to the governor by installing a main spring with more coils, but the same initial pressure. It's possible to get too much and the engine will surge and hunt. Usually a single tension spring replaces the entire governor capsule. The tension spring allows more coils in the same space. Modified many pumps to behave in this manner, generator applications demand it for speed regulation. The best way to set up is with the engine running on a load bank, near impossible to set up properly on a test bench.

Reply #28October 08, 2006, 12:59:56 am

macsdub

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2006, 12:59:56 am »
he didnt jack wit the governor at all
especially on a tdi setup
most of the time this is hilfolk'r... ive forgotten my password

Reply #29October 08, 2006, 02:08:16 am

rabbid79

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Cant get car to idle right after gov. mod.
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2006, 02:08:16 am »
I don't think QuickTD is necessarily implying that he raised the speed of the engine, just that he increased the fueling relative to engine speed instead of reducing it like a typical governor does.
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