My Dream: 300HP 5-Cyl TD - Give me your input.

[rabbid79]

Hi,

I'm looking for a few ideas.  I really want to build a 2.0 Liter 5-cylinder Audi TD engine and put it in a 4000 Quattro (gutted to save weight of course).  I'm shooting for 300 HP.  What are my biggest hurdles?  Obviously, fueling and timing advance are biggies.  How about turbos?  I want to retain the stock exhaust manifold with T3-style flange (I think), and get away with only 1 turbo if possible.  I'm thinking 40-50 lbs. of boost, does that sound about right?  Are there any VNT turbos that can produce this much boost?  I suppose it would be possible to run an Audi 5000 turbo-gas manifold with an external wastegate if necessary.

Other Givens:
Large intercooler
Large exhaust
ARP head studs and connecting rod bolts
Coated (and probably cryo'd) pistons, pre-cups, etc.
Strengthened connecting rods
Lightened valve train
P/P head, intake manifold, etc.

I've heard that the new 16-Valve 2.0 TDI engine is capable of 300 HP.  I think the older IDIs have a lot going for them, in that they can rev so much higher.  I've never really seen a TDI make peak power over 4250 RPM.  Can't the IDI make peak power up to 6000 RPM?  This would be almost 50% more revs than the TDI.  If I could make 300 HP at 6000 RPM, that's only 262 ft/lb that I have to produce.  A TDI has to produce 370 ft/lb at 4250 to make the same amount of power.

Something else that I think would be cool is if it were kept purely mechanical.  No electronic controls in the engine, transmission, drive train, etc.  Just big turbos, fuel pumps, and gears.

Does anyone happen to know what a stripped-down '84 (not '85 and later, because they're too big) Audi 4000 Quattro weighs?  Thanks for your input.

[935racer]

If you are looking for a cheap turbo solution run a holset hy35w, It has a t3 flange and has an internal wastegate, it will give you a lot of air flow for low cost.

[lyeinyoureye]

I'd say sub 2000lbs, maybe even 1700lbs if you go nuts. They were only 2300-2400lbs iirc. Nice project btw.

[rabbid79]

Thanks for the input.  From what I can tell, HY35s are T3-style flanges and HY40s are T4?  Is that right?  What's the difference between HX and HY?  There seem to be a lot of HXs floating around too.  The Holset does look like a pretty good choice of turbo though.  Oil cooled, integrated wastegate, T3 flange, high volume, low cost, plenty of them around, etc.  So basically what you're saying is go pull the turbo off my Cummins?

1700 lbs huh?  I was hoping you would way that! :twisted:

[Dr. Diesel]

not much available as far as higher lift camplates or bigger diameter plungers for the 5 bangers... maybe see if you can jam in a 2.4L six?

[rabbid79]

I was kind of hoping to get by on high RPM horsepower - not too much torque, just lots of revs.  I think this may be possible with a smaller pump.  Can the pump inject the same amount of fuel per stroke at high RPMs as it can at low RPMs?  (Given the govenor mod has been done of course.)  Again, I'm trying to get away from the TDI philosophy, which is inject as much damn fuel as possible at low RPMs, because there's no such thing as high RPMs.  I wonder what Europe has to offer as far as bigger pumps go?  

You know, I've actually considered the 2.4.  One problem is that there just isn't that many of them around.  I'm not saying there are a lot of 5-cylinder diesels either, but I already have one of those.  There's also a ton of high performance 5 cylinder parts around from gassers for cheap too.  Something I saw on ebay about a year ago was an original Audi Sport equal-length turbo exhaust header from the early '80s.  That really makes the juices flow.    Another problem with the 2.4 is it's too long to fit without cutting bumpers, grills, supports, etc.

[Dr. Diesel]

with the low lift camplate of the 5 banger, you should be able to turn it fairly high rpm. Maybe Redrotors can make you a 12mm plunger for it?

[Giles@PerformanceDiesel]

hi

the 5 cyl pump only has 3 rollers inside the pump running on a 5 lobe
cam  plate.
this combination is not good for very high output fuel demands.

i did one 5 cyl pump so far and had problems with the rollers getting
chewed up from the over stress.

pick another engine

Giles
don't get me wrong  125HP is no prob but def not the 300 u want

[andy2]

5 cyl mercedes TD :wink:

[935racer]

5 cyl mercedes TD :wink:

Yes the 617 engine, cast iron head and block, nitrated crank and cam shaft. Bullet proof engine to say the least,my daily benzo has the same motor with 517.000kms on it, never even had a blown headgasket, purrs like a kitten. Oh and it has an inline pump, so theres some good performance potential in the pump side of things.

[rabbid79]

Giles, thanks for the input.  So is 125 HP the limit of the stock pump would you say?  That's too bad since I really wanted to do this motor.  What about later 5-cylinder pumps from the TDIs, etc.?  Do you think they would be capable of significantly more fuel?

[rabbid79]

There's a couple of 5-cyl TDI pumps on UK ebay right now.  According to the seller, here are the numbers off the casing of one of them:

965 907418
BOSCH 0470506002  BT6006
VW-AUDI 059-1301060
12159-011

Do these numbers mean anything to anyone as far as plunger sizes go?  If these are better than the stock pump, perhaps they could be converted to mechanical, and help me achieve my goal.  Shoot, I'd even settle for 250 HP. :wink:   Thanks.