1.6L TD or 1.9L TD ?

[JetPo]

I would like to know what would be better for my 1992 Volks Jetta, which is more powerful(whith mods) which is more reliable and which is more full efficiant.

Thanks
Alex

[Dr. Diesel]

i'm personally starting to lean towards 1.9L's. There's no question 1.6's are easier to start making power with. They rev nice and high, and are for the most part, bulletproof.
1.9L's have the crank sprocket issue, which cannot be ignored. Once that repair is accomplished, (Andy2 on here can do it without removing the engine from the car, or the crank from the engine!) the 1.9L definitely makes a better daily driver. A person accustomed to driving a 1.9L would likely stall a 1.6L the first time driving it. The low end torque is THAT much different.
With only intake and exhaust mods, increased boost and fueling, the 1.9's become quite potent... up until ~4000rpm anyway. Then they kinda fall flat on their faces. It's a totally different animal, and you have to adjust your driving techniques to suit. That said, with a Giles pump, ported head, and lightened internals, and further boost increases (intercooling!!) you can pull steady power to 6000+. A 1.9L tuned to this level cannot be matched by a 1.6L, IMO.

in short, if you have a good 1.6L and can't find a 1.9L, stick with the 1.6. If you can get a good 1.9L, definitely go that route!

[gnavs]

dr diesel gives me goosebumps when he talks like that :lol:

[RabbitJockey]

i agree, 1.6s have no balls down low, atleast mine doesn't, it's not really all that torquey for a diesel if you ask me.

[VelocityConservation]

That said, with a Giles pump, ported head, and lightened internals, and further boost increases (intercooling!!) you can pull steady power to 6000+. A 1.9L tuned to this level cannot be matched by a 1.6L, IMO.

How much of the difference is directly attributable to the 18% larger displacement?  (remembering the old drag racing addage: "There is no Replacement for Displacement")

VelocityConservation

[andy2]

A 1.6er can be built to take 150+ hp(really pushing the limits),however it has to work alot harder and at higher rpm,kinda like a gasser :roll:.The 1.9 is more like a true diesel in that it makes lots of torque down low and at 150 hp its working alot less and at a much lower rpm.The added bonus of displacement makes it a no brainer in my eyes if you had to make a choice between the 2.

I felt that my old 1.6er was pretty "safely" maxed out at 125-130 hp on 27psi,(and I still melted it down :oops: )My 1.9er takes 180 hp with ease.

Just my 2 cents :wink:

[JetPo]

I wanted to buy a 1.9L TD but i talked with a mecanic and he told me that 1.9Ltd were not reliable, the turbo always broke and the crank too. So if i take a 1.9L TD and fix those two things it should be okay right ?

Thanks for all your help guys, its really apreciated
Alex

[entuzijast]

A 1.6er can be built to take 150+ hp(really pushing the limits),however it has to work alot harder and at higher rpm,kinda like a gasser :roll:.The 1.9 is more like a true diesel in that it makes lots of torque down low and at 150 hp its working alot less and at a much lower rpm.The added bonus of displacement makes it a no brainer in my eyes if you had to make a choice between the 2.

I felt that my old 1.6er was pretty "safely" maxed out at 125-130 hp on 27psi,(and I still melted it down :oops: )My 1.9er takes 180 hp with ease.

Just my 2 cents :wink:

Can you please tell me what went wrong?...I have planes  to get around 120 hp out of my 1.6, but with 1.9 head, and all recommended upgrades....Can you PM me your mods, so I can see what you have done?...Or there is a thread on your meltdown?

I also considered 1.9, but parts are almost double expensive than a 1.6...

[malone]

Can you please tell me what went wrong?...I have planes  to get around 120 hp out of my 1.6, but with 1.9 head, and all recommended upgrades....Can you PM me your mods, so I can see what you have done?...Or there is a thread on your meltdown?

I also considered 1.9, but parts are almost double expensive than a 1.6...

I have an unfinished 1.6L with flowed 1.9L head in a MK3 Golf and I out-accelerated an equal-weight MK3 Golf VR6 (172bhp).

Although I don't have a dyno sheet my very conservative estimate is 155 wheel HP / 175-180bhp. At 4,000 RPM my front wheels started spinning.. the power really ramped up then! Had zero intercooling and 0% smoke so it worked well with lots more left.

As for low-RPM torque, my 1.6TD's torque was better than the 1.8L 8v gasser that was in the same car. I always shifted at around 2,800 RPM during daily driving with the 1.6L so longevity is not an issue. I only rev high during racing, and boy does the 1.6L love to rev! Wheels would also spin between 1,000 and 1,500 RPM in the wet - my 1.8L 8v in the same car + wheels couldn't do that easily.

However, if I don't get the rapid boost that my GT20 turbo provides during low RPM (i.e. disconnected intake pipes) then the 1.6L is a total slug.. worse than a N/A 1.6 Rabbit due to vehicle weight & low compression. Thus, I'm concerned about the daily driving fun factor if I get a big single turbo for my 200+hp goal. A single VNT or compound turbo setup will be ideal. Ditching the porky MK3 and jumping into a lighter MK1 or MK2 vehicle will help too.

My 9mm fuel pump had camplate float (cuts fuel) at approx 5,250 RPM so I couldn't rev much higher than that. The pump will be rebuilt in addition to a 11mm and 12mm plunger upgrade.. I also received custom injector nozzles from Dieselicous to replace my GTDs and to solve the no-smoke problem. Hoping to reach or exceed 6,500 RPM with good fuel & air flow (and especially intercooling that I didn't have before). There's lots left in the 1.6L

Anyway, back to your question; 120hp is not a big deal. That power can be achieved reliably with the 1.6/1.9 setup. Essential power enhancement items are a good fuel pump and a decent intercooler. A lot of people still underestimate/ignore what a good fuel pump upgrade can do. Most people already know the rest; EGT and boost gauges, clutch upgrade, boost controller, etc. There's more info in the FAQ / Tech forum.

For what it's worth, for my 1.6/1.9 rebuild I am planning on custom rods + AAZ pistons, giving it a 1.9's bore but retaining the 1.6's stroke.. 1.7L displacement ultimately. I do not discount that a 1.9 with fully lightened internals will kick major ass regardless of it's total cost. 935racer might go that AAZ route if he's not too enthralled with his ALH TDI project so it'll be interesting to see results

Shameless plug; my GT20 turbo & exhaust manifold are for sale. It is an awesome daily driver turbo that combined with Giles' stage 4 pump will provide great low RPM torque & good midband power too.

[jtanguay]

I'm thinking of going compound turbo's with a 1.6 too.   I think that the small VNT turbo should work well at creating boost at nearly idle (from Jake's experiments  :twisted: )

The vanes on the turbo make it ideal for compounding.  Just open the vanes and let the gas pass around the turbine.  Of course the turbine will continue to spin, but keep the compressor wheel spinning.  This should help remove some of the restrictions that the dinky turbo might pose.

What I'm wondering, is: what is the best turbo for creating 60+ psi boost on a 1.6?  Considering the fact that it is a low displacement engine, and I also know that 60 psi boost will not come on before 4k rpm (or is that possible? :twisted: )

I wonder if this turbo can handle 60 psi boost? It has a a nice VNT controller on it  :wink: !!  Of course that compounded by the smaller VNT turbo...

[andy2]

I supose melt down was the wrong word there :lol:.However the issue was that the head gasket(1.6) leaked at 24+psi,this caused the coolingsystem to fail and combined with Very high EGT's the engine rapidly seized up with my foot to the floor in 5th (160km/hr) :twisted:.I had one intention in mind before taking off in 1st and that was to put the old oil burning engine out of its missery :lol:.

A 1.6er with stockturbo(30psi),stock intake manifold,1.6 head with aaz headgasket would have a hard like of it pushing 125+hp IMO.

That being said either engine would need alot of work done to it to ensure it survival when asking 130+hp from it,trust me I know :cry:.

The 1.6 block with a ported 1.9 head on it is the only way to make any use out of the 1.6 above 130 hp!

[DVST8R]

Mark, Check your Email, I want the turbo.  :wink: [/hijack]

$ for $ the 1.6 Is cheaper to build, until you go to custom internals, and then it is a toss up and you might as well go with the larger dissplacement... (not that anyone should care what I have to say, but I will tell you anyway.   )

[entuzijast]

Thank you all for your answers...This is all just in planing stage, when real work starts im sure I'll have more questions...
Im not planing to build race car, I just want daily driver but that diserves respect on veekend racing...
I have gone thru almost every post on this forum, and you have assured me it can be done...
I am only worried about compression with the 1.9 head, has anyone calculated the drop?

[banza]

heres my golf mk3 1.9 gtd power test, with
- 1,2 bar boost pressure
- modified lda
- diesel pressure
- intercooler tdi 90 hp


see the power? 119 hp =4730 rpm