Author Topic: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine  (Read 14146 times)

Reply #15July 09, 2020, 12:31:00 am

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2020, 12:31:00 am »
   Went to run some diesel purge through it.
 Used really clear lines instead of the old "tinted" ones in there.
 Started it up and ran it for awhile,.. until all the air was out of the lines.
 Shut it off, let it sit, start it again and I see bubbles coming from the pump.
 Let it run awhile and I see no bubbles going into the filter.
 None coming out of the filter.
But a steady stream of tiny air bubbles coming from the pump,
 want to call it foam because they are so numerous and small
 but it's not enough to call foam.
 
 Looks like a bad mainshaft seal.
 I shut it off and looked for an air bubble to come out the front of the pump;
 none.
 Probably because the pump is so tilted air would have to go down to get out.
 I did see air in the line coming off the input banjo,
going to the vacuum gauge. It is above the banjo.
 
 What size seal do I need?
 Is this a 19mm shaft?
 I've heard other mention a 20mm shaft.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #16July 09, 2020, 12:55:35 am

libbydiesel

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2020, 12:55:35 am »
LR mainshaft is 20mm.  That seal comes in the turbo-diesel seal kit.  I can get the kit number if you need it.  Also potential culprits could be the copper inlet washers or the pressure regulator o-ring.  It also seems like the angle of the pump and inlet banjo might result in a small amount of air being trapped and purging slowly. 

Reply #17July 09, 2020, 06:27:38 pm

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2020, 06:27:38 pm »
I already sealed the rest of the pump so I don't need a full kit.
The pump number is:
0 460 414 136
 I'll give that to the local bosch guy and see if he can get me just the seal.
Not a hard seal to fix.
 I can keep it on the car.

 I'll put some fluid on top of the pressure regulator, see if it gets sucked in.
 No seaps around the copper washers.
 I could grease it up and see what happens.
 
 I tried the test several times.
 Running it until the air bubbles were small "fog"  in the lines.
 Shut it off, let it sit, come back and start it again.
 Comes out pretty clear at first then larger bubbles and back to a slight fog.
 I think I gave it time to purge any normal air in the lines.
 
 There has also been white smoke.
 I thought maybe the timing was retarded or maybe a bad injector.
 But air in the fuel will cause white smoke.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #18July 16, 2020, 02:04:55 am

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2020, 02:04:55 am »
  Changed the mainshaft seal.
 Got rid of the air exiting the pump.
 Runs better but still white smoke, hanging RPMs but not as bad and
I'm noticing an unburnt diesel smell.
Better pull the injectors.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #19July 16, 2020, 10:38:35 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2020, 10:38:35 pm »
Now that you may have the proper internal pressure going don't forget to double-check that timing.  It could be off now.  Advanced is as bad as retard for smoke. 

Reply #20July 17, 2020, 12:14:42 am

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2020, 12:14:42 am »
 I time it with a pulse detector and timing light.
 Since I had to pull the belt and sprocket to install the mainshaft seal.
 I just got done retiming it to 12 BTDC.

 After reading the recent FAQ posts about MTDI pumps;
 I'm not sure the internal pump pressure is high enough.
 I was going by the 1.6 pump pressure.
 It looks like Landrover pump might run at about double that.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #21July 17, 2020, 12:25:26 am

ORCoaster

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2020, 12:25:26 am »
I have been wondering about internal pressure on my IP.  I tapped the regulator down a while ago and got better performance but it still lacks some on the bottom end.  I have a KO3 turbo on my 1.6l Caddy.

I was trying to find time to pull the line off the outbolt and fill a liter bottle and get a better idea about delivery.  I used to have an adapter that went on as an outbolt but I broke it and haven't had the torch and solder to put it together again.  Sounds like a Humpty Dumpty problem. 

I do know that getting the proper IP internal pressure is key to proper advance.  So we may see 12 BTDC on our equipment but when we put the boost on it just isn't there like it should be.  I dare not set it up and try timing it under boost conditions.  I will have it flying off the jack stands with my luck, at 4000 RPMs.

Reply #22July 17, 2020, 11:48:03 pm

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2020, 11:48:03 pm »
 Not sure if  I mentioned this but,
the engine came from a vegy burning Jetta.
 He was filtering/filling the tank with vegetable oil and saw a gloop of water go into the tank.
 Shut it off.
 Didn't think much about it.
 Until the engine stopped.
 Plunger seized in the injection pump,
 ripped the pin right off.
 Didn't mess up the engine but it sat for a long while after that,,...
 with vegy,. and maybe water in the injectors.
 aaand that's how you get a complete engine with a bad pump for $400.
 
 I should bump up the internal pressure to the specs
 listed in the MTDI FAQ thread page 12.

 "It is sufficient to perform measurements at 1000 rpm and at 4000 rpm.
The pressure at 1000 rpm of the ENGINE should be about 5.5 bar, at 4000 rpm-9 ... 10 bar."
 5.5 bar is 79.77psi so I have that at about 2000 RPM instead of 1000 like it's supposed to.

EDIT: Bosch service center guy said these specs are way too high and could crack the pump.
 79.77psi @ is probably double what it should be at 1000 engine RPM.

 So you're right. I should bump that up and recheck the timing
and see if it fixes the problem before I change injectors.
 
 I'm still hoping they survived it but,..
not optimistic.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 12:42:40 pm by fatmobile »
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #23August 26, 2020, 01:06:42 am

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2020, 01:06:42 am »
 Progress report:
 I bumped the internal pressure up.
 That didn't stop the white smoke and hanging RPMs.
 Checked my injectors with the old 1.6 injector tester.
 Kent Moore brand.
 2 pissers. 2 that popped/sprayed nice..
 672 stock nozzles for an automatic.

 706 are stock nozzles for a manual car.

 So I bought a set of used injectors from manual cars.
Actually a couple sets.
    One set from a local guy, the #4 was banged up,
1 and 2 were great, couldn't get them to pee,
 broke at about 2900psi.
 Number 3 peed a little if I pushed slow then popped at about 2700.
    The 2nd set,... well the second set I got ripped off he said they had 85,000 miles.
 They were total pissers, he even had one apart and didn't tighten it back together.
Who takes good injectors apart? He knew they were junk/cores.
 I have a paypal grievence with him.
 The third set had 2 great ones that popped at 2900,
 another one that popped at 3000 that wouldn't pee.
 ..and a #3 that pee/popped at about 2500.
 I swapped in the best number 3 which popped at 2700.
 The rest pop at 2900 or 3000.
 I know these numbers are all low for a TDI.
 
 So far the same results.
 White smoke and hanging/climbing RPMs.
 I have a new set of injectors coming.
 Kerma recommended the DLC520s.
 I'll have them in soon and see if that solves the problem.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #24August 26, 2020, 02:33:05 am

libbydiesel

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2020, 02:33:05 am »
Thanks for the update.  Here's hoping the injectors cure the issue. 

Reply #25August 26, 2020, 09:42:04 pm

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2020, 09:42:04 pm »
 Got the new ones in today.
 Still hanging and white smoke.
 I tried turning the max fuel screw out and idle in.
 That hasn't helped.
 The idle is up higher than in the original pictures of the pump.

 I'm not sure what to do next.
 I tried disconnecting the boost line in case it was an LDA issue.
 That didn't help.

 Other than that, the boost controller is working pretty good.
EGTs don't go over 1200F.
 Boost climbs nice.

 If I floor it at 55mph, the clutch slips.
I don't see that as a bad thing.
 I knew I'd need a beafier clutch, it slipping probably saves my trany.

I'll try pulling the top off the pump and take a look.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #26August 27, 2020, 01:40:25 am

libbydiesel

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2020, 01:40:25 am »
I wonder... what about delivery valves?  I had one 1.6TD injection pump that smoked white until I swapped the delivery valves.  Just a thought.  I assume you checked the timing after installing the new injectors as a change in break pressure will change the timing. 

Reply #27August 27, 2020, 03:29:06 pm

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2020, 03:29:06 pm »
Thanks Andrew,
 I did check the timing it was still at 12BTDC.
 The breaking pressure was around 3200 on all the new ones
and of course no pissing just pop.

 I didn't think about the delivery valves.
 Hadn't even concidered them.
 They are different than the ones in the 1.6 right?
If so I don't think I have any others to swap in.
Gave the TDI pump (and pieces) back to the guy I got the engine from.

Not sure what happens on the TDI when it's 180 out.
 Sometimes the 1.6s will still run and smoke white.

 I was thinking the cam might be 180 out,
 because you can still fit the cam locker in place
 even if it is 180 out.
 That wasn't it.

 Maybe I put the hub or inside pin 180 out.
Doesn't look like it.

 I have the pump out now,
 I'll probably take it up to the local Bosch service center
get some ideas from him
probably have him bench test it.
 He has always been very helpful.

 We've both had this happen before.
 Usually when we reset the splines and accelerator lever
 then turn the max fuel screw up higher than usual.
 RPMs hang until the brake or higher gear drags them down
 then they are fine at idle.
 It just hits that lower RPM and settles back down.
  This time when it hits probably 2500 it will actually accelerate instead of hanging.

 It's always been injectors pissing, timing retarded or I played with the max fuel screw.
 It'll be fun to figure this one out.
 I feel like I'll know more about the pumps when I do.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #28September 22, 2020, 02:55:20 pm

fatmobile

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2020, 02:55:20 pm »
 I tried a few things.
 Made it so I could adjust the allen screw near the timing belt,
while it was running.
 Cut an allen wrench glued it in and removed some off the bracket.
 That didn't help.

 I took the lines and sprocket off.
 Powered it up and watched to see what port it was coming from.
 It was hitting the right ports,
 kinda seemed like some was dribbling from the wrong ports, maybe.

 Took it to the local bosch service center
and am bumping this post so he can find it.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #29September 23, 2020, 12:04:37 am

ORCoaster

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Re: 300 tdi landrover pump on an ALH TDI engine
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2020, 12:04:37 am »
Bump because you left us hanging a month ago. 

 

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