pics of dem total seal rings

[andy2]

I've had excellent sucess with the total seal ringset in my AAZ and would recomend  using them for a stock engine rebuild.No oil comsumption,no blowby when used in an all out preformance engine.OEM rings were garbage compared to these lots of blowby,and oil being forced out at high HP levels.

[scopefrfd]

do you have the gapless top or 2nd ring

[andy2]

Gapless 2nd ring for me

[scopefrfd]

and you say that total seal makes them off the shelf

[andy2]

Yes for the 1.9 IDI anyways.Probably the same rings for the TDI and they porbably have a ring set for the 1.6 also I would think.

[RabbitGTDguy]

I've had excellent sucess with the total seal ringset in my AAZ and would recomend  using them for a stock engine rebuild.No oil comsumption,no blowby when used in an all out preformance engine.OEM rings were garbage compared to these lots of blowby,and oil being forced out at high HP levels.

Just for the fairness of it all. I wouldn't make a comment like that about stock rings unless you have the data to back it up. Correctly installed and OEM quality, in my case, Goetze rings are VERY VERY good and have proven less problems then many running total seals in VR6's, 2.0's and other VW engines out there. Look through the archives in many of the sites... and these were installed by good, reputable engine rebuilders and some just DIY rebuilds....upgrades, etc.

From personal experience, I chose OEM Goetze rings vs. the total seals because of problems I've personally heard about excessive blowby even with gapless as well as accellerated wear of the bore itself. I personally teated the OE rings from the 1z when I rebuilt it last year. It had 129k on it and it was WELL within factory specs when it came to ring wear and they could have been reused. Its a matter of personal preference. I haven't had any problems with mine on the "hot rodded" mTDI motor as of yet and don't anticipate it.
I won't make claims either way, but if the data was there...then go for it. If not, don't say OEM is junk unless you can back it up. There are also several "OEM" suppliers out there... Goetze (german), Cofap (Brazil), etc. to name two of the big ones...  Just some food for thought...

Joe

[andy2]

Well this was only based on my own experience with comparing the rings but I would have to stand behind it I've seen the difference with my own eyes.My first AAZ setup always had blowby with new OS pistons,rings(Goetze) and obviously the cylinder bores machined to spec.Those rings sealed properly but just did'nt cut it at high hp levels.The total seal rings went in after as a figured I had nothing to lose but hardcore blow by.The cyl bores were machined 2 thou over spec to clean up 90% of the damage and the total seal rings went in.I now have no blowby or hardly the odd drip of oil coming out my open CCV system.Before with the conventional rings I had a water bottle on the dump hose that I had to empty quite often due to the large anmount oil being forced out of the engine at 150+hp.I should have stated that the OEM rings were only garbage when compared to the total seal rings in my case!I think Hilfolk'r has had a very compareable experience with OEM vs total seal rings too?

[RabbitGTDguy]

To each his own...

I can tell you on three of the motors I've rebuilt, diesels...my own and others. That NONE of the blow by you mentioned occurred with the OEM's in that kind of an amount. Something seems a bit fishy there.
Also... what kind of hp levels are you talking about? what kind of oil were you using? Have dyno results, etc. All of that would play into making claims like that...
I make no claims myself because I don't have that kind of data to back it up...

Again...to each his own...

Also, most of your total seal rings are modified OEM rings by total seal themselves. You can ask hillfolk this and probably just about anyone else. I called doing research on them for the mTDI build last year and they don't make a specific ring for the TDI itself.  In the conversation with their tech, they also discussed how robust the OE rings were compared to many others that they have seen out there...though, they did advise to stay away from Cofap (brazil) units from some bad experiences with aircooleds and rings they did for "race" motors using cofap units as the basis for the gapless modification. You send in your rings and they modify them. In the end, they are modified OEM rings with the gap eliminated...

Joe

[andy2]

Interesting info,all I can say is that they have worked very well for me.Both engines used kendall 15w40 non synthetic oil :oops:  and the total seal ringed engine produced 161 whp on the dyno.The OEM ringed engine was not dynoed but had almost as much Jam :twisted:.

[RabbitGTDguy]

I agree.... I think it'd be cool if someone put up some good information on all of it. I was re reading some of the posts on the vortex when hillfolk first got his in, etc. Ordering 5 sets, etc... and total seal told him right there that they couldn't "build" a custom set as nice as the OEM Goetze rings, that it was best that he got them a set of OEM's and then modify...from there...it looks very nice.

Then you read some other information them as well. Alot of it goes down to the bore prepration process... and machine shops (if they do your work, etc. ) machining the block correctly to the new set of gapless rings. The 'tex isn't definitive, but then there are also some stories of very interesting BLOW BY but excellent compression issues around... weird eh? Makes you wonder....seems to me if blow by was bad, compression wouldn't be good ...

Alot of sitting on the fence. Total seals info on technical specs between OEM also exists mainly for RACE engines... their results deal solely (from what I've seen...stop me, cite me to another place if I'm wrong) with the race engines, usually the tests taken in between 10 races? They also suggest leakdown testing after each race, etc. Nothing really all that much on general use "high performance" motors...that would be interesting stuff.

Most failures that I have seen have been with the general use motors... usually forced induction. Several guys run gapless on ITB'd 16v's, 8v's and alot of other combinations... all NA of course...with few issues. Boost applied, it seems different in many of their cases...

Then there are your examples here and I believe Dave made a claim with 40psi on his motor running gapless... then do we consider peak cylinder pressures on the IDI's vs. TDI's, etc...

Anyways...alot of considerations and possibilites...

Joe

[andy2]

I forgot to mention 1 important detail about the 2 different ringed engines.The OEM ringed engine had stock CR(22:1) and the total seal ringed engine is in the 18.5-19:1 range.However both engines still made similar HP I will be extracting hopefully 200 WHP wtih the current setup so mabye we will wait till then to see If these rings hold in :lol:.

Compression was good enough to bent 3 rods on the OEM ringed engine.With that much better of a seal this time around and PD con rods the rings will be put under more load for sure.I could see that causing an issue with more wear on the ring/bores but I guess thats the price to pay.I will get a good synthetic oil in this time before any crazy hp is made :twisted:.

[RabbitGTDguy]

Isn't this still more a debate between gapless and gapped rings though? Your rings aren't full total seal correct? I had the conversation (as mentioned above) as well as hillfolk with total seal themselves that they COULD NOT build as nice a ring as the OEM's were (in this case Goetze) ... they simply modify the stock ring to be "gapless". So its your "modified" OE rings that are holding all of this power...

Just don't want to lead people astray...

Unless of course your getting your rings elsewhere such as Hastings or some other manufacturer?

200whp eh? Interesting...  

Joe

[andy2]

I'll have to find out about the ring set I have form Total seal.The previous engine did have Goetze rings for sure.This current engine made 161 whp @ 4300 rpm on the dyno 300kms after rebuild.That was on 30 psi and very consevative fueling max egt's were 1200 deg pre turbo.With More fuel and boost this time as well as compound turbos hopefully working this time and more than 4300 rpm I think 200 whp will happen.

[935racer]

I've been using total seal gapless rings on all my engines lately too, I send OEM goetez rings to total seal and they modify them. I don't think I will build another engine without them.

[RabbitGTDguy]

Once again, to each is own... your always going to have your naysayers against them and those for them... in the end, they are still modified rings and its a debate between gapless and gapped units.
Until hard data can be thrown down that they are relavant for anything beyond a full race motor that sees that duty only and is cracked/opened alot for those purposes, you have this type of debate.
 
Total seal notes/says this themselves right on their home page...

I don't believe they are a cureall for an engine build and relieving blow by, look out there with those having bad experiences...some experience great compression with crazy blow by, some its it opposite, they get major blowby and horrible compression. Some of these experiences are with professional installs, some are without. Either way, its like anything else and does leave room for debate...

Anyways... good luck on the 200whp

Joe