NOLA Speed and Style

Author Topic: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi  (Read 1027 times)

February 09, 2018, 12:01:54 pm

Kamikaze

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Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
« on: February 09, 2018, 12:01:54 pm »
Hello there, i need your advice guys. I can't find LR / LT pump in our country for good price and i am looking now for IP from 2.8 Ducato but i don't know if i should go to TDI or iDTD variant. Both looks like DI pump and both have mechanical throttle.

Which one is better for Plug&play in to AFN engine? I have 764nozzles in this engine. I have already ready hub/pulley from golf MK4 but i think it would be useless with these 12mm pumps.

-----

Stock nozzles with a new 12mm pump can result in the plunger seizing.
Are 764(0.216) nozzles big enought for avoiding seizing or can i lower fuel enrichment for avoiding seizing? I know 12mm is a little bit overkill but it's a lot cheaper like 300/200TDI or Croma pumps. I am aiming at 70-100kw. I have K14 wg-turbo with large intercooler.
Now i have AAZ body with AFN guts and it feels like 35Kw so i am looking for improvement.


EDIT: Some minor changes.


Sorry for bad english.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 06:11:42 pm by Kamikaze »


Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #1February 10, 2018, 03:41:32 am

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 03:41:32 am »
Or would be better IP like 0460414120 / 0460414128? But these are with price close to 300TDI and have spring instead of governor - can i use my AAZ governor on 2.5TDI-ducato pump instead of spring?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 03:51:34 am by Kamikaze »
Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #2February 10, 2018, 02:28:59 pm

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2018, 02:28:59 pm »
Can i use my AAZ governor on 2.5TDI-ducato pump instead of spring?

I am going answer one question by myself. It looks like AAZ governor have a lot shorter arm like governor from 2.5 IP so it wouldn't be good idea.
Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #3February 11, 2018, 01:49:32 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 01:49:32 pm »
Hello there, i need your advice guys. I can't find LR / LT pump in our country for good price and i am looking now for IP from 2.8 Ducato but i don't know if i should go to TDI or iDTD variant. Both looks like DI pump and both have mechanical throttle.

Which one is better for Plug&play in to AFN engine? I have 764nozzles in this engine. I have already ready hub/sprocket from golf MK4 but i think it would be useless with these 12mm pumps.

-----

Stock nozzles with a new 12mm pump can result in the plunger seizing.
Are 764(0.216) nozzles big enought for avoiding seizing or can i lower fuel enrichment for avoiding seizing? I know 12mm is a little bit overkill but it's a lot cheaper like 300/200TDI or Croma pumps. I am aiming at 70-100kw. I have K14 wg-turbo with large intercooler.
Now i have AAZ body with AFN guts and it feels like 35Kw so i am looking for improvement.


EDIT: Some minor changes.


Sorry for bad english.

I'm not familiar with either Ducato pump.  From looking at pics, it would appear that they have the larger shaft diameter but shorter snout.  The combination means that there is not any stock sprocket that will work with them (like the Cummins 4BTA).  You could use the AAZ capsule, but would need to pull the rivet and fasten to the shaft shown in order to achieve the better offset.  Depending on the LDA setup this might result in interference.

The single-spring governor setup will work if you use an appropriate spring.  If I had to guess from the pic, it looks like the rpms would be very limited with that single spring. 

The other item of concern is the timing advance curve.  It needs to be close to the VW one.  The LR300 pump and the LT28 pumps are both fine in that regard.  I have no idea about the Ducato. 
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #4February 11, 2018, 06:37:52 pm

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 06:37:52 pm »
Thank you for a reply!
By "Snout" you mean this collars in circles? I have both pulley for long and short snout, but can i use pulley from 17mm shaft on 20mm? Or is cone on shaft different? I also have pulley for RL pump but i don't have sprocket. It seems like ALH/RL pump have bigger diameter of snout.

Somewhere on this forum i saw topic where guy said about Iveco/ducato pump but i can't find it now.


Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #5February 11, 2018, 10:54:22 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2018, 10:54:22 pm »
By "Snout" you mean this collars in circles?

Yes, the red is what I mean by snout.

Quote
I have both pulley for long and short snout, but can i use pulley from 17mm shaft on 20mm? Or is cone on shaft different?

You cannot use a sprocket that fits a 20mm shaft on a pump with a 17mm shaft.  You cannot use a 17mm sprocket on a 20mm shaft.  There is not any stock sprocket that fits the VW engine that fits the short snout AND the 20mm shaft.  There are various ways that people have dealt with the mismatch.  The most often used method is to have the 1.6 sprocket (17mm short snout) machined to the correct taper and diameter to fit the 20mm shaft at the correct depth.  That custom cut will cost some $$ if you can find someone willing to do it and then add the keyway slot in the correct location.

Quote
I also have pulley for RL pump but i don't have sprocket. It seems like ALH/RL pump have bigger diameter of snout.

By RL are you referring to the Land Rover pump?  When you say you have the pulley for it do you mean the center hub that the sprocket bolts to?  The land rover hub is not useful without a significant amount of machining.  The ALH and Land Rover shafts are 20mm (as are all stock TDI pump shafts that I've seen).  The ALH hub will fit on the 20mm pump shaft with the long snout and give the correct sprocket offset when used with the ALH sprocket.  The 1Z/AHU/AFN sprocket will also fit the long snout and 20mm shaft and give the correct offset.

Quote
Somewhere on this forum i saw topic where guy said about Iveco/ducato pump but i can't find it now.

I don't know the Iveco/ducato pumps so I can't really comment.
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #6February 12, 2018, 07:05:37 pm

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 07:05:37 pm »
Quote
There is not any stock sprocket that fits the VW engine that fits the short snout AND the 20mm shaft.
Thanks a lot, I owe you a beer! You saved me ~150 or a lot nerves.

And i am sorry for my english, it seems i misunderstood some technical term like pulley -> sprocket -> bracket. Now i understant it a lot better.

This is my sprocket and hub from pump 0460404977 with 20mm shaft. I think this is what i would need for RL (yes Land Rover) pump.


I should stop speculating and rather bought expensive Land Rover pump and hope for working one. :D
Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #7February 12, 2018, 10:59:37 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 10:59:37 pm »
Yes, the ALH hub and sprocket will work fine on the Land Rover pump.  You will need to have the center of the AFN pump bracket machined out to the larger diameter, though. 

Stolen pic:


There are a couple other minor external mods necessary to run the Land Rover pump.  The details are in another thread on the forum here.  Let me know if you need me to find it for you. 
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #8April 23, 2018, 09:38:17 am

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2018, 09:38:17 am »
Can i ask you for help again? Now I have a chance to buy this pump, but i don't know if it is 200TDI/300TDI or 2.5td.
IP number 0460414069

It's good IP? I am looking for 300TDI because i know timing 1.58mm is good enough.
Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #9April 23, 2018, 02:36:43 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2018, 02:36:43 pm »
I'm not sure of the part number.  Can you post any pics?
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #10April 23, 2018, 04:45:59 pm

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2018, 04:45:59 pm »
I don't have any, i was just through telephone in contact with seller. He told me it is from Discovery 1 2.5TDI 83KW 1993. Seller is older man and he is living very far away to visit him just fot pics but i can try tomorrow ask to send me any pics.


Edit: What i found on wikipedia it looks like 200TDI pump because of manufactured year. Damn, i was happy for a while. :) There are plenty informations about 300tdi but a few about 200tdi IP.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 05:41:21 pm by Kamikaze »
Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #11April 28, 2018, 06:28:42 pm

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 06:28:42 pm »
Ok some photos of this pump, hope it is 200tdi. It looks like this pump havn't cold start advance (choke).

Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #12June 09, 2018, 04:39:04 pm

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 04:39:04 pm »
So today i mount this 200tdi pump in my golf and it is insane what a beast it is! I timed it on 1.54mm on bench and finally it goes how car should go. It feels like 2times more power like GTD pump with 10mm plunger.

But now i have weak clutch.  ;D
At this stage how important is Tandem/in-tank fuel pump?

And big THANKS vwdiesel forum and libbydiesel.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 04:44:38 pm by Kamikaze »
Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

Reply #13June 09, 2018, 10:07:39 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2018, 10:07:39 pm »
Excellent!  Glad to hear it worked out for you.  :)
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #14June 15, 2018, 04:17:19 am

Kamikaze

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Re: Which IP is better? 2.8TDI or 2.8iDTD / choosed 200tdi
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2018, 04:17:19 am »
Libbydiesel as i mentioned i am using Sprint764 nozzles, should i stay at 1.54mm or it affect timing in some way if i don't have stock nozzles?
Golf MK2 - 1.9mTDI AFN + AAZ pump (Afn pump internal components)

 

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