Fixmyvw.com

Author Topic: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks  (Read 3560 times)

February 24, 2018, 02:56:03 pm

Gizmoman

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1301
  • Personal Text
    AAZ 1.9, HE 200 Turbo, 82 Vanagon, AAP 5 speed
Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« on: February 24, 2018, 02:56:03 pm »
After more than 10 attempts, I have never completely stopped the valve cover leaks on my 50° AAZ. Yes the cover is perfectly flat. As for sealer I put dabs, no dabs, full seal, different brands (Right Stuff, Permatex Hi temp, etc.) - no joy.

A few days ago I ordered another brand new gasket set (Elwis) and figured I make another attempt. The first thing I discovered when I went to remove the valve cover was the grommet that seals the breather (typically called the "hockey puck") into the valve cover was in bad shape and not sealing very well - yes, it was leaking as well.

As I have built a custom intake which made the hockey puck not fit well, I had fabbed up a different breather affair and have been using this (with a catch-can) for several years. This was part of the grommet sealing problem as my home made unit didn't have the same barbed fitting profile as the plastic hockey puck.

This time, when I had the cover off, I decided that one of the problems is because the engine sits at 50° the hole for the hockey puck is on the down-hill side of the valve cover. This location is also why the stock breather wont work (in my case) because it's too close to the manifold tube. So, I cut a new 1" hole and brazed in a short tube so I could attach a 1" ID hose. The hole is located at one of the areas of the valve cover where it has a secondary chamber on the inside. The hole for the hockey puck is located in a similar place - just on the other side.

I cleaned both the sealing surface of the head and cover till they shined, and wiped them with lacquer thinner. The gasket fit perfectly and I thought I'd try to see how things went with no sealer at all as I had read that some had good luck with this approach. I torqued down the three nuts according to spec and installed my new, very simple breather. This simply consists of a 1" tee fitting, a very short piece of 1" hose (T to valve cover, a 1" hose from the block breather to the "T", and another 1" hose from the "T" to the catch can. The catch can is simply a plastic bottle with a 1-1/2 neck. I have never had any liquid oil in it but it has turned black on the several years I have been running it.

Anyway, after I got everything assembled, I started it up and let it sit and idle till it came up to temp. I was surprised to see I had zero oil leaks! I must say that I still didn't believe I had solved it based on past history but still, I was hopeful.
This morning, I wrapped up everything, pressure washed the oil stains off the driveway, and took it for a quick spin. When I got home, I took a quick glance under the van and it's still leaking  ::)

At this point I am wondering of the 20 lbs of boost (which I wouldn't have with it idling) is somehow making it's way past the pistons and producing more pressure than the 1" hose can dump - making the oil actually blow out from between the valve cover seal. I know this sounds crazy but I just don't understand why this thing is so hard to seal. I also wonder of there is something about the stock hockey puck that makes not using it create some issue that would make the cover leak like this.

Here are some pictures of what I have - BTW, I brazed the stock hockey puck hole shut. Also, the weird thing in the upper right of the first photo is the contraption I made to replace the breather. It is filled with stainless steel scrubbing pads. Now all I have is a "T" fitting.




I am totally stumped and would appreciate any insight from the group. Thank for reading my novel :P

Jim


Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #1February 24, 2018, 03:53:08 pm

libbydiesel

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3416
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2018, 03:53:08 pm »
After the catch can are you running to the intake between filter and compressor inlet or running to atmosphere?  Is the vent of the bottle just the extra space around the tube poked into it?  If venting to intake between filter and compressor, you should have the hockey puck in place as a safety device to help prevent engine runaway.  I'm not sure otherwise.  I know quite a few people have fits trying to get the AAZ or AHU valve covers to seal but I haven't personally found it that challenging.  I believe that the intake connection on the stock AAZ/AHU puck is larger than the two connections that feed it.  It looks like you have all three the same size.  Maybe that isn't sufficient.  I have run similar to yours on an AHU, though, and it worked without leaking.

Reply #2February 24, 2018, 04:59:20 pm

burn_your_money

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 9005
  • Personal Text
    Bright, On
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2018, 04:59:20 pm »
You should use a G60 cover. I ran one on my AAZ. Mind you it'd be a real challenge drilling and tapping the holes with the head installed.

I wonder if hooking the breather tube up pre turbo would help draw any excess pressure out of the crankcase, thereby reducing oil leaks?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 05:02:27 pm by burn_your_money »
Tyler

Reply #3February 24, 2018, 05:31:54 pm

Gizmoman

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1301
  • Personal Text
    AAZ 1.9, HE 200 Turbo, 82 Vanagon, AAP 5 speed
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2018, 05:31:54 pm »
After the catch can are you running to the intake between filter and compressor inlet or running to atmosphere?  Is the vent of the bottle just the extra space around the tube poked into it?  If venting to intake between filter and compressor, you should have the hockey puck in place as a safety device to help prevent engine runaway.  I'm not sure otherwise.  I know quite a few people have fits trying to get the AAZ or AHU valve covers to seal but I haven't personally found it that challenging.  I believe that the intake connection on the stock AAZ/AHU puck is larger than the two connections that feed it.  It looks like you have all three the same size.  Maybe that isn't sufficient.  I have run similar to yours on an AHU, though, and it worked without leaking.
Libby, The catch can is simply a bottle with a fairly wide mouth - probably provides quite a bit of area to exhaust the air - it just exhausts to atmosphere. I didn't see any oil in the catch can before but I also had the SS scrubber pad catch thing. I haven't driven it enough to see if there is much oil in the blow-by.
As I am not running back to the intake, I have no worries of runaway.

You should use a G60 cover. I ran one on my AAZ. Mind you it'd be a real challenge drilling and tapping the holes with the head installed.

I wonder if hooking the breather tube up pre turbo would help draw any excess pressure out of the crankcase, thereby reducing oil leaks?

A G60 cover would be nice but a hassle as you mention. I may have to go that route at some point but I'm not there yet.
I do think if pressure is causing the issue, running it to to a point pre-turbo would certainly help. I would defiantly need the hockey puck back in the system. I also hate to think of oil coating the turbo fins, inter-cooler guts and so-on. When I cut up the old stock intake to make the one I have now, I was amazed how much build-up it had inside. Might have been from the old K14 though. As I said, I don't seem to have much oil in the blow-by air but I had a filter of sorts. We'll see how much I have with just a "T". If there isn't much over time, I may consider this.

I should mention that I pressure washed it again and  was going to remove the cover. All three nuts seemed rather loose so I tightened them a bit more (without a torque wrench this time) and went for another spin. I did see some oil on the side of the head but it may have been residual that I couldn't reach with the pressure wash. There was not enough to run down the block and onto the driveway so that's a good sign.
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #4February 24, 2018, 07:56:04 pm

ToddA1

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 434
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2018, 07:56:04 pm »
I was able to get my AAZ VC to seal.  I added a washer with an ID larger than 10mm, on top of the dished washers. The flanged 10mm nut is able to compress the gasket slightly more.

I’d estimate the washers are maybe 1.5mm thick. 

I usually hose clamp the VC grommet to the puck stem, but you’re beyond that point.

-Todd

Reply #5February 24, 2018, 11:34:34 pm

libbydiesel

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3416
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2018, 11:34:34 pm »
One way that I have dealt with the hockey puck with a vanagon install is to use a metal flange at the block port and add a connection facing straight up with a tee running up to the valve cover and the straight up connection going into the single port of a 1.6TD puck.  That way the pressure control valve of the puck is in the circuit and the puck is flat to aid in its ability to act as a separator.  Just a thought.   

Reply #6February 25, 2018, 12:45:54 pm

burn_your_money

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 9005
  • Personal Text
    Bright, On
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2018, 12:45:54 pm »
I'm personally a fan of having oil coating the intake tract. I think of it as a secondary filter because the oil grabs any/most dust that gets into the intake when doing things like changing air filters. But I know I'm a minority in my thinking.
Tyler

Reply #7February 25, 2018, 02:39:27 pm

Gizmoman

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1301
  • Personal Text
    AAZ 1.9, HE 200 Turbo, 82 Vanagon, AAP 5 speed
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2018, 02:39:27 pm »
All good ideas. I suppose coating the intake with oil isn't such a bad idea but I believe it would eventually hamper the effectiveness of the inter-cooler. As I recall, the build up in my old intake was quite thick.

I went out this morning and took a real good look.
There are still plenty of tiny leaks here and there- One at the o-ring seal between the plastic oil filler tube where it bolts to the flange at the oil pan (this should be an easy fix). I believe either the front cam seal or IM shaft seal is leaking and possibly the rear main as well. They are all quite small leaks but sufficient to make the driveway and the back of the nearly white van look like crap. I also plan on towing my motorcycle behind the van and can't do that till I get the airborne oil stopped.

Now I'm considering fabbing up a belly pan/wind-age tray out of 16 or 18 GA sheet. It would have a drain plug so I could periodically drain it. The bottom would be one sheet and I'd make another about 1/4" above the lower pans inside surface that would fit inside and have several holes in it. This would contain the dribbles yet keep the wind from blowing it out.

I know it sounds extreme but so would removing the engine to replace all the seals - not to mention it could still leak.
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #8February 26, 2018, 08:11:26 pm

Gizmoman

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1301
  • Personal Text
    AAZ 1.9, HE 200 Turbo, 82 Vanagon, AAP 5 speed
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2018, 08:11:26 pm »
I think I'll try Lucas's suggestion and tap into the intake pre-turbo. The only time it seems to leak is when I'm driving it. It can sit and idle for 20 minutes and won't leak a drop so I figure cankcase pressure (when I boost to 20 lbs for instance) is overwhelming the seals a bit.

I'm thinking of remote mounting the hockey puck (sort of like Libby's recommendation) and running a hose from the port that went into the valve cover grommet to a sealed bottle to catch any oil (and other junk) the puck traps. I could then empty the canister if it gets a lot in it. The largest port would go to the block (as it was stock) and the third would go to the intake. I plan on tapping into the 2-1/2" tube heading down to the turbo. I may even angle it a bit for some venturi effect.

I assume the puck would then protect the engine from over-run? I wish I could take the puck apart so I could understand it's function better but no luck there.

Thoughts appreciated.
Jim
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #9March 01, 2018, 10:34:16 am

Gizmoman

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1301
  • Personal Text
    AAZ 1.9, HE 200 Turbo, 82 Vanagon, AAP 5 speed
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2018, 10:34:16 am »
Here is a shot of what I have now.


As I have relocated the input at the valve cover, I was able to mount the stock CCV (Hockey puck) so it sits level - as recommended by Libby. I bought a piece of clear vinyl tube from Home Depot and stuffed a piece of stainless steel scrubber inside to catch any oil vapors. As you can see in the photo, this tube goes to a 90 I tapped into the intake tube going to the turbo - recommended by burn_your_money.

Using my DIY manometer I made to tune motorcycle carbs, I measured the pressure at the block port - it runs around 0.3" WG. The valve cover output was around 0.6" - this is with it idling. I imagine that when I'm running 20 lb's of boost this pressure increases significantly. Hopefully I will now have negative pressure in the block and the oil leaks will stop.
I'll keep you posted after putting a few miles on this set-up.

Jim
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #10March 01, 2018, 05:55:39 pm

libbydiesel

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3416
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2018, 05:55:39 pm »
I assume that there is no way that scrubby can get sucked through that fitting is there?

I also assume the tube the brass fitting is in is between the air filter and the compressor inlet, correct?

Assuming those, that looks fine.  Keep us posted. 

Reply #11March 01, 2018, 06:38:24 pm

Gizmoman

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1301
  • Personal Text
    AAZ 1.9, HE 200 Turbo, 82 Vanagon, AAP 5 speed
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2018, 06:38:24 pm »
Libby, all your assumptions are correct. It's a single scrubber pad I simply rolled between my hands like play-dough and was a bit tough to stuff in there before it expanded. Therefore, I doubt it can get past the fittings.  I'll be keeping an eye on it and if it doesn't get oily, I'll probably just remove it.

Went for a 20 mile run today and the only oil leak is one I've had which is the plastic oil filler/dipstick tube where it bolts to the elbow at the bottom of the pan. I believe it's an o-ring and should be easy to fix. This leaves only a dime- sized spot on the driveway but even that is not acceptable. I probably won't fix it till my next oil change but I may just put my drain pan under it and get it done.

No leaks on the valve cover and that's with absolutely no sealer anywhere, just a new gasket. I'm pretty stoked but time will tell how it holds up. It's a shame that I never considered how much internal air the engine produces when running at 3K for hours on end. Obviously it was more than the seals or valve cover gasket could hold. Then when I fixed the fueling issue (thanks to you) and increased the boost from 10 to 20 lbs, that's when the leaking oil really began to show up.

Thanks for all the good advice.

Jim
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #12March 05, 2018, 12:44:22 am

burn_your_money

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 9005
  • Personal Text
    Bright, On
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 12:44:22 am »
Please keep us updated. Happy to hear you've made this much progress.
Tyler

Reply #13March 05, 2018, 07:55:34 am

Gizmoman

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1301
  • Personal Text
    AAZ 1.9, HE 200 Turbo, 82 Vanagon, AAP 5 speed
Re: Crankcase breather - valve cover leaks
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2018, 07:55:34 am »
Will do Tyler. So far so good.
I still need to deal with the oil fill/check tube leak but the others have disappeared as far as I can tell. It is really nice to know the valve cover gasket is not leaking and that's with no silicone whatsoever. I know there are plenty of leaky engines out there and it begs the question - what have you done with your CCV lately?

At idle, the valve cover pressure measured .02 PSI (0.6 WG). I'd like to check it at 20 lbs of boost but setting that up for a road test would be a real PITA. I do think it's important to keep all the hoses as large as possible but have no proof of that. As I recall, the piston to cylinder clearances were marginal when I did the rebuild. The engine starts instantly and purrs like a kitten, but I believe my blow-by is sufficient to cause fairly high internal pressures - especially at 3000 RPM climbing a grade.

Thank you sir for your valuable input.

Jim
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost