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Author Topic: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?  (Read 239 times)

October 06, 2017, 11:33:01 am

Spokerider

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Guys,
 I have a rebuilt AAZ engine in my Samurai. I am at the stage of figuring out the cooling hose routing and deciding upon oil cooling options for this engine / vehicle combo. There is NOT much space inside a Samurai engine bay once one installs power steering, an ARB pump, 8-piece relay box, pimped glow plugs, etc, etc.....

 So far, I have installed a RX7 oil cooler in front of the rad. This cooler has a thermo pellet, but I removed it so oil flows freely all of the time. I did install a Mocal sandwich adapter on the vw filter flange. It has a thermostat that will be fully open for oil flow at 180 deg. Now, I have left the OEM vw oil cooler / warmer off, as there is not enough room for both it AND the Mocal adapter [ with the Mann filter ] on the engine. It has to be one or the other......

  The dilemma; I want good oil cooling in the summer months for this heavy little 4x4, but still need good oil flow to the engine and turbo for the cold starts in the winter. Summer temps average 28 dec C and winter temps average plus 5 to minus 5 deg C.

  I have changed the gearing and will be running approx 3175 rpm @ 60 mph on the hwy with 33" tires.

  Question..... IF i run the RX7 oil cooler and no OEM vw cooler / warmer, how long will it take to get the oil up to say, 160 deg or so? I don't want to compromise engine longevity with poor oil flow for too long........ Should I run a lower viscosity synthetic oil?

  If I pull the RX7 cooler and plumbing out, and install the OEM vw cooler / warmer, then I know I will have warm oil sooner on cold stat-up, but dunno if this cooling-challenged engine pushing this heavy, non-aerodynamic 4x4 will overheat when the temps hit 28-33 deg C in the summer.

  Thanks for your thoughts.  :)

https://imgur.com/oJXFaNH

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« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 11:42:33 am by Spokerider »



Reply #1October 07, 2017, 12:25:11 am

ORCoaster

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 12:25:11 am »
Very Nice Spokerider.  Would you have room to place a Flat Plate Heat Exchanger somewhere on the fender or up near the front grill?  You have a Tee showing there that comes from the water pump I think.  That would get you the hot water you want early on cold days.  A simple loop and perhaps a shut off like the heater core has might allow you to bring the heat on in the winter and not in the summer. 

Using a thinner oil in the winter is the old school way of dealing with the cold temp oil problem but the new oils are thin and still provide the protection of the thicker ones.  Hence the 15W-40 labels.  So I don't think messing with the oil will get you any bonus here.

You would route the oil line coming into the FPHE after the oil cooling goes on in the RX7 cooler up front.  Only warm the oil when it is cold out.  Otherwise cut the water flow and let it pass through the exchanger without grabbing heat.  These things are common on Waste or Straight Veg oil conversions.  I ran two on my car when I had that duel system going.  I only heated the oil in the winter as the tank was inside the back of the car and who wants heat then on a long drive with no A/C.

Hope this gives you some ideas.
Now Own 1981 Caddy as the NEW DISTRACTION to all that is around me.  Project Away!

Reply #2October 08, 2017, 10:57:26 am

Spokerider

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2017, 10:57:26 am »
Thanks for the thoughts and your reply.
 I'll look into a FPHE. I'm guessing that it would have to be manually controlled, opening / closing the coolant flow to it as ambient air temp and oil temp dictating it to be operating or not.

 If so, I would forever be adjusting the thing to keep the oil temp in the optimum range.

 What about a bigger oem vw oil / coolant heat exchanger than the oem 1.9TD one? Would this cool the oil enough / better when temps get over say.....215 deg?

 The more I read into it, the more important it appears that the oil does not get over-cooled and stay over cooled for long periods with vapors and contaminants building up in the oil, and for the oil to be warmed for cold start up / engine longevity reasons........something that the RX7 cooler will not do.

Reply #3October 08, 2017, 02:17:15 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2017, 02:17:15 pm »
The way your setup looks to me is that you are filtering the oil then passing it to the cooler in the front of the car.  Correct or not?

If you want to have the option of only cooling or only heating the oil depending on time of the year I would take the line going from the adapter plate to a solenoid and switch it at will.  If it is hot out then cool the oil.  Switch to the in front RX7 cooler.  If cold then the switch is the other way and the oil passes to the FPHE.  A tee from the outputs of both back to the adapter and you have it. 

I wouldn't get hung up on oil temp too much, put in a gauge and just switch it once in a while during the seasons or if you take it off road. 

The standard warmer/coolers on the VW's don't even give you that amount of control so think about that.  What ever the temperature of the coolant is the temp of the oil.  So on a hard slow churn you might hit 230 F and the oil would as well.  Splitting the system would allow you to cool the oil more and thus act as a second radiator, although a small one.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 02:19:47 pm by ORCoaster »
Now Own 1981 Caddy as the NEW DISTRACTION to all that is around me.  Project Away!

Reply #4October 08, 2017, 02:54:14 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2017, 02:54:14 pm »
I run the larger V6 Passat oil cooler on my AHU. It is double the size of the factory one but still works with the factory cooling hoses.

The absolute highest oil temperature I ever see is under 125C which is totally safe for any modern diesel synthetic (I run Rotella T6 5w40). It won't hit that unless I'm climbing a mountain grade at speed for an extended period of time.

Ideally you want your oil temps above boiling or close to it under normal circumstances. That's what gets moisture out of the oil. The VW setup is nice since the oil usually warms faster than the coolant so it helps bring the engine up to temp faster, then the coolant stays below the oil temp keeping everything balanced. It works well provided your radiator is big enough to manage your coolant temps.

Same engine with the factory size oil cooler in my Jetta (smaller and lighter) would get over 130C. I didn't like how much the pressure dropped at those higher temperatures hence I went to the larger cooler.

The high temp high shear testing they do for oils is run at 150C btw - that's supposed to be within its operating range.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #5October 09, 2017, 12:25:55 pm

Spokerider

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 12:25:55 pm »
The way your setup looks to me is that you are filtering the oil then passing it to the cooler in the front of the car.  Correct or not?

If you want to have the option of only cooling or only heating the oil depending on time of the year I would take the line going from the adapter plate to a solenoid and switch it at will.  If it is hot out then cool the oil.  Switch to the in front RX7 cooler.  If cold then the switch is the other way and the oil passes to the FPHE.  A tee from the outputs of both back to the adapter and you have it. 

I wouldn't get hung up on oil temp too much, put in a gauge and just switch it once in a while during the seasons or if you take it off road. 

The standard warmer/coolers on the VW's don't even give you that amount of control so think about that.  What ever the temperature of the coolant is the temp of the oil.  So on a hard slow churn you might hit 230 F and the oil would as well.  Splitting the system would allow you to cool the oil more and thus act as a second radiator, although a small one.


I hear what you're saying about being able to control the oil temps as needed.
 At this point, I'm not sure what the operating temps are going to be of the AAZ in the Samurai, in my BC climate.  I think I would want a simpler option to try 1st, before buying the parts and plumbing it all in. I'm going to look into a plate heater as I know nothing about them.

Yes, the plumbing that I have set up in the Zuk currently is;
 Oil enters the Mocal sandwich plate, if less than 180 deg, it goes into the oil filter and then back to the engine. If at 180 deg and hotter, it goes to the oil cooler then back to the filter, then back into the engine.

The "T" you see in the coolant hose pic, [ hose that goes to the middle or top water pump inlet, i forget..... ] is for the coolant tank return hose to attach to.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 12:36:06 pm by Spokerider »

Reply #6October 09, 2017, 12:34:21 pm

Spokerider

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 12:34:21 pm »
I run the larger V6 Passat oil cooler on my AHU. It is double the size of the factory one but still works with the factory cooling hoses.

The absolute highest oil temperature I ever see is under 125C which is totally safe for any modern diesel synthetic (I run Rotella T6 5w40). It won't hit that unless I'm climbing a mountain grade at speed for an extended period of time.

Ideally you want your oil temps above boiling or close to it under normal circumstances. That's what gets moisture out of the oil. The VW setup is nice since the oil usually warms faster than the coolant so it helps bring the engine up to temp faster, then the coolant stays below the oil temp keeping everything balanced. It works well provided your radiator is big enough to manage your coolant temps.

Same engine with the factory size oil cooler in my Jetta (smaller and lighter) would get over 130C. I didn't like how much the pressure dropped at those higher temperatures hence I went to the larger cooler.

The high temp high shear testing they do for oils is run at 150C btw - that's supposed to be within its operating range.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk




Good info thank you.
Do you know if the v6 Passat oil cooler / warmer will mount on the AAZ engine? I have the vw angled oil filter mount on the engine currently, as with the Acme motor mount brackets and the Samurai frame motor mount location, the oil filter needs to clear all of this. I may be able to find room *somewhere* for a remote oil filter relocation bracket to move the filter and make room on the engine for just the cooler / warmer and a oil filter take-off plate with oil lines.

 As a baseline start, installing a larger vw oil cooler / warmer appears to be a good option.

Reply #7October 09, 2017, 01:58:09 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 01:58:09 pm »
The filter bracket on the AHU is identical to the AAZ so it should be no issue. There's 3 parts you need, the cooler itself, a longer stud for the filter and a fancy seal that both seals the cooler to the engine plus directs the oil to actually go through it.

Oil cooler pipe 028 115 721B
Oil cooler seal 038 117 070
Oil cooler 028 117 021E

The seal needs to be installed carefully - I pinched the first one I did on one of the locating tabs causing a leak.

I should also add, my oil temp gauge is installed pre cooler, so it is showing the sump temperature rather than the post cooler temperature.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 02:00:07 pm by vanbcguy »
Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #8October 09, 2017, 02:13:44 pm

Spokerider

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2017, 02:13:44 pm »
Thanks for the part number Bryn.
 Would you happen to know the years, gasser or diesel engines that the 028 117 021E coolers came on?
 I am googling the parts number and it's all made in china stuff that comes up. I'll make a trip to the wreckers for a good used one over china any day.

Reply #9October 09, 2017, 04:28:19 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 04:28:19 pm »
I got mine from a local parts supplier - it was aftermarket but good quality.

It came on Passat V6 4motion cars, I guess that's probably the B5 platform but I'm not entirely sure.

Here's what it looks like installed on my AHU in my B3 Passat - juuust enough room to get the filter in and out:





Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #10October 10, 2017, 12:41:51 pm

Spokerider

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2017, 12:41:51 pm »
Ok, thanks for the pics and the passat v6 info. Pretty sure I can get one from some wrecker somewhere.......

Reply #11October 13, 2017, 04:21:20 am

Rock3tman

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Re: OEM vw oil cooler warmer delete........will the turbo survive?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 04:21:20 am »
There's a bigger cooler available than the V6 Passat one that may work for you...

1) an oil cooler from a ~2007 3.2 or 3.6L Toureg, or a ~2004 130HP Pumpe Deuse Passat: p/n 038117021B, and
2) an oil filter from a Type IV Vanagon gasser, pre-wasserboxer: p/n 021115351A.   This filter is smaller (shorter)   
    than an IDI oil filter, but just change it 2X as often and add a little more oil to the sump, and
3) the seal for the top of the oil cooler: p/n 038117070A.

YMMV as always.

You have to cut, extend, and re-weld the stock threaded nipple for the extra cooler length.   These parts should both warm up the oil faster than stock or first oversize coolers and have a greater cooling effect from the water when the oil is hot as well.   The above works well for my application.

 

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