White smoke and rough idle still occurs after timing - what next?

[Kameron]

my 79' rabbit runs and drives(poorly I might add), but puts out white smoke and stumble over itself while idling. I assumed this was just a injection pump issue but after checking timing across the board and adjusting the IP the car runs a bit better but white smoke still persists and idle still sounds off and rough. Although, when I pull the advance lever the idle evens out a bit and sounds more like a diesel should.

I am new to diesels but have done plenty of research and have some ideas of what this might be but figured I would get some help from some more experienced diesels guys to help me diagnose this as quickly as possible! If it would help I can get a video of the car starting and running to give more insight to the issue. Thanks in advance!

[vanbcguy]

Advance it a bit and see how it behaves - book numbers are really only good for fresh parts. If the advance lever clears things up it needs more static timing.

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[Kameron]

Okay I will give that a try. Are you able to advance your pump at any given time or do you have to go through the TDC timing procedure with the gauge? Because if I can I would like to just be able to make some adjustments on the fly and see how the motor behaves without having to go through the whole process.

[ORCoaster]

Some of us dare to adjust the IP while it is running.  We loosen up all the bolts but one near the front by the radiator.  Then slowly release that and then either push the IP towards the engine to get it to advance or pull it towards the radiator to get it to retard the timing.  Then when it sounds or runs like we want it to we tighten the bolt, turn of the engine and release the pressure on the four nuts on the back of the pump by loosening them all and giggling the mass of pipe and then tighten the nuts back down.

Then we reset all the nuts on the IP.  Dynamic timing on the fly.  Just what you are asking about.  You can't generally make big adjustments to the timing due to the tension that gets applied on the nuts on the back of the pump.  But then again it only takes a little movement of the the IP to make a difference in the first place.  Moving it and changing the timing from 88 mm to 95 is a big adjustment.  Some run pumps with 105 mm of cam lift.  It is different for everyone and that label on the strut tower is a guide now after 35 years of wear and tear.  Not Gospel. 

Enjoy toying with it. 

[Kameron]

So after tinkering with timing the pump by ear and not getting much better results than timing with the gauge, i've decided to just install a different pump that I had lying around that was given to me with the car. I'm not sure of the condition of this pump but the one installed right now seems to leak a bit so I figured this would be worth a try.

My question is: when the pump is installed does it have to be able to fit the pump locking pin in place while everything else is at tdc? Because when I put the pump gear back on I couldnt quite get the TDC holes lined up, but does it really matter? Since the crank and cam are at TDC cant I just time the pump as if it were TDC anyway?

[vanbcguy]

Nope, the pump lock pin is more about making sure it is set up for the correct port. Generally it doesn't seem to actually line up for timing purposes at all.

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[fatmobile]

Got clear fuel lines?
 Haven't had to ask that in awhile.
 I'm betting you don't,.. and there is air in the lines.
Don't change the pump until you've completed the simple task of putting clear lines to and from the pump and tested it.

[Kameron]

Yes, I put clear fuel lines on; There is no air going into the pump.

So i've got the new pump on and in the process I messed something else up and the car does not crank at all! I was wrenching on the starter nut that goes to the battery and accidentally hit the transmission case causing a short. Knowing this information what should I check? I'd assume it blew a fuse or something but is it possible that the starter is bad now?

[ORCoaster]

So you shorted out between the big red cable and the transmission.  Might have caused the battery terminal connections to get a little juiced but there is no fuse on the battery.  The two fusible links on the smaller wires go to the ignition and the Glow Plug relay.  I would not think you would have a problem there as the key was not on.  Or was it on ACC and you were listening to the radio?

Did I weld the wrench to the transmission case?  Was it there for any length of time?  Or just one of those Holy Crap! Sparking moments?  You might test your battery and check the connections at the terminals, the starter and the grounds on the transmission and the engine bay.

That is all I can think would be involved with at short as you described.

You can try to jump to the wire on the solenoid on the starter with a cable from the battery and see if it is still any good.  My guess is that it is.

[Kameron]

It was just a quick spark when they touched, I will try jumping the solenoid and see where that gets me.

[Kameron]

I jumped the starter solenoid and the motor cranks fine. There must be some sort of disruption in the trigger/ignition wire.

Edit: After cleaning as many connectors as as I could I fixed the issue and the motor cranks with the ignition now.

[ORCoaster]

I sense the panic attack it over, see what a little spark jumping through your hand will do to your sensibilities?

Glad you got er going again.

[Kameron]

I got her cranking but not running    the other pump that I put in seems to be a bust. After bleeding out air and cranking for numerous minutes I only got the motor to start 2 times and it died very shortly after, but it did sound good for the few moments that it was running. During all of the cranking fuel was being spewed onto the ground as well and I think it was coming from the bottom of the IP.

Anything I should try before removing this pump? I'm going to slap on the other pump that was on before and tinker with it a bit more to see if I cant get it running properly, if that fails than I guess i've gotta get a new pump. Let me know if anyone has got a working pump for a decent price!

[ORCoaster]

Sounds like the seals are dried out on the second pump.  Sucking air and leaking fuel to boot.  Was the other pump you put in stored and sealed with fluid in it?  Something like ATF? 

[Kameron]

I have no clue of the history behind either of the Injeciton pumps, other than that I can see that they have been opened up and resealed within their lifetimes. I have both on my work bench right now, is there any way to determine the condition of them while they are off?