Author Topic: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1  (Read 16704 times)

July 13, 2017, 03:28:52 pm

LucasMolen

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M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« on: July 13, 2017, 03:28:52 pm »
Hello, my name is Lucas. I'm from the netherlands and drive a (currently) 1100cc petrol powered Golf MK1. Because of the way road taxes here work and the amount of km I need to drive next year, I want to swap in a 1.9 TDI engine.

I have been offered a 1.9L 110hp AFN engine which came straight out of a Jetta 1, so they fit the Mk1 chassis already. Plus it's dirt cheap.
Aside from if the Engine is good, I would like to ask about my possibilities. I would like to go m-tdi because the harness and ecu are gone with this engine. Plus it adds a certain amount of 'period correctnes' to the car.

As I read in the sticky threads that there are a couple of difficulties with controlling the standard turbo. Is this correct? Will changing to a waste gate operated turbo solve this issue?
Can someone give me advice about what pump to use? I read about an elusive pump from a VW LT 2.8L that nobody seems to be able to find, or a Land Rover 300 tdi pump. Could you give me advice for this specific engine?

Thank you in advance!



Reply #1July 14, 2017, 03:25:29 am

vanbcguy

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 03:25:29 am »
The LR pump is the easy way to go for sure. There's still some work involved but it's a pretty good match to the engine "out of the box" so to speak. To use one you need:

- machine the opening in the pump mount bracket larger as the Rover pump has a larger snout
- swap the delivery valves on the pump with ones off a VW pump
- get a pump hub and sprocket from a Mk4 car (ALH is the engine code here but might be different there) - it's a two piece sprocket which is adjusted to set the timing.

Yes, it is much easier to run a wastegate turbo. You can use the VNT but it is a ton of work.

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Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #2July 14, 2017, 04:34:29 am

LucasMolen

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2017, 04:34:29 am »
The LR pump is the easy way to go for sure. There's still some work involved but it's a pretty good match to the engine "out of the box" so to speak. To use one you need:

- machine the opening in the pump mount bracket larger as the Rover pump has a larger snout
- swap the delivery valves on the pump with ones off a VW pump
- get a pump hub and sprocket from a Mk4 car (ALH is the engine code here but might be different there) - it's a two piece sprocket which is adjusted to set the timing.

Yes, it is much easier to run a wastegate turbo. You can use the VNT but it is a ton of work.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

I just found this website yesterday because a friend on a dutch forum told me to look for diesel info here and I have to say that I love this community already. From what I found up to now the amount of helpfulness and discussion without resulting in a swearing match is amazing.

Can you recommend a specific turbo to match the engine and pump? I am still reading all the stuf that might be considered 'basics' by your standards, but I'm trying to learn quickly. My budget isn't extremely big, so I would like to match the parts as good as possible from the start. If I understand correctly, a turbo with internal wastegate would be easiest, is that correct?

I researched a bit here and it seems the ALH engine is used in a lot of cars of that generation here as wel (golf 4, polo, bora, caddy). So that shouldn't be a problem to source. I'll have to translate pump hub and sprocket to something someone here could understand. Technical lingo is often hard to translate if you aren't educated in the car field. :P

Can the delivery valves be used from the AFN pump, or do they have to come from another engine/pump?

Would I be able to at least het the stock hp/tq numbers?

To be clear, my goal is to get the most bang for my buck. I don't really have power numbers I want to hit. I just want it to be as smooth as possible and be as fuel efficient as possible with the mechanical setup.
If I can get more power with a similar investment (for example if multiple possible turbo's are about the same price) I'll obviously go for more power. 

Thank you for the help!

Reply #3July 14, 2017, 06:23:38 am

BGA

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 06:23:38 am »
"pump hub and sprocket"? as vanbcguy says " it's a two piece sprocket which is adjusted to set the timing" .
On older VAG engines you set timing by turning the hole pump - its mounted in long holes. On ALH pump is fixed and timing is set by turning the hub relativ to the spocket (the part that timing belt is running on). The spocket has the long holes.
My Translater says hub = naaf, sprocket = tandwiel

Go for the ALH. The older 1,5 .1,6 and 1,9 are built in the same way. With the ALH you dont have the intermediate shaft with the problems associated with that (bearings).

vanbcguy. "- swap the delivery valves on the pump with ones off a VW pump" Why? Should I do it on my AHU with LT 2,8 pump too?
Bo Gunnar

Reply #4July 14, 2017, 06:48:17 am

BGA

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2017, 06:48:17 am »

A pic of my AHU, LT2,8 pump and ALH hub/sprocket.
Bo Gunnar

Reply #5July 14, 2017, 05:38:34 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2017, 05:38:34 pm »
The delivery valve swap is because the Land Rover valves are about an inch longer than the VW ones. Technically I suppose you could bend the injector lines to fit but they're crack prone enough as it is. I gave it a shot and gave up when I did mine. The VW delivery valves are the right length to make the lines fit properly. They can come from any VW pump though rumor has it the 10mm TDI pumps have the best flowing valves.

Turbo selection requires a set of goals. How much power do you want, how much are you planning on building up / reinforcing the engine, what if any intercooler are you planning on running?

The Rover pump is calibrated for 120hp before you touch it so it'll happily beat a stock E-TDI.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #6July 16, 2017, 07:03:46 am

BGA

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 07:03:46 am »
Thanks Bryn. Fuel lines to my LT 2,8 pump are installed and fits perfect so everything should be okey.
Bo Gunnar

Reply #7July 18, 2017, 05:44:59 am

LucasMolen

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 05:44:59 am »
Thanks Bryn and BGA, that cleared things up nicely. I am leaning towards using an LT2.8 pump. They should be available here and from what I read in other topics it seems like the easiest option. BGA, do you have a build thread with more pictures and information? I am very curious to see what you've done so far.

If I understand correctly, the LT pump fits in the AFN bracket without modifications? I just found the service manual for the AGK engine and everythings seems perfect for my purposes. The standard LT turbo is wastegate controlled and the boost pressure enrichtment seems easily adaptable to the 1.9 engine.

My car is originally a petrol engine. Can you guys give me some pointers regarding the glow plug system and adapting it to my puposes? Can I take it straight from another car?

Thanks in advance!

Edit: Is the LT pump slotted to change timing, or do I still have to use an MK4 adjustable sprocket?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 06:07:01 am by LucasMolen »

Reply #8July 18, 2017, 01:08:44 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 01:08:44 pm »
I believe the LT pump is slotted though the ALH style sprocket is miles easier to deal with. I'd still use it even with a stock E-TDI pump.

What was the redline of the AGK?

Glow plugs aren't a huge issue for direct injection engines. They'll help reduce smoke at startup a little but unless you regularly get temperatures well below freezing they aren't strictly necessary.

A simple circuit with a suitable relay (needs to be rated at 60A or higher) and a manual momentary pushbutton would suffice if you're going for simple.
Alternatively you can find a glow plug relay and socket from a Mk2; they have a connection to the coolant sensor and automatically adjust the glow cycle (with afterglow too). It'll use the plugs way more than the TDI actually needs but that won't hurt anything.

I use the factory AAZ glow plug stuff on my M-TDI. Hard to get myself out of the habit of waiting for the light to go out though!

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Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #9July 20, 2017, 07:24:11 am

BGA

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 07:24:11 am »
Lucas, I have no build thread. I will post pics thou.
" I just found the service manual for the AGK ". I think you have no use of this engine, just only the pump. The LT pump is slotted, but use the ALH hub/sprocket as Bryn suggest. You get the best of two worlds! I like the big mass in the ALH system - it lessens the uneven torque used by the pump - it works as a flywheel - gives longer belt life ( sorry I cant explain it better with my swinglish).
Glowplugg. Do it the simple way Bryn suggests. No lights, no timing relays, that's why we like mTDIs isn't it?
 As the plugs draws many amps you get a good idea on what is going on by the warning lights in dash panel, they are dimmed if at least some plugs are working. I have had it in my Volvo/ VW 1,6 TD for more than 10 years.

Bryn, "What was the redline of the AGK?" This is from the
VW LT leaflet:"(125 PS) bei 3500 1/min. (rev.limit 3800)"

  My engine will go into a Volvo 745. With that big engine compartment I have a lot more freedom to build the engine than you have. Keep that in mind when you see my pics!
Its only in rear end of engine block I am short of space.
 
Stil to design: mechanical VNT control. 1000 lines of code and 400 soldering points keeps me away from electronic control.

PD inlet manifold, Volvo D5 GT2252v turbo





LT slotted holes



pump injection start markings

TDC

EM turned upside down

grinding of EM necassary around IM bolts. Homemade adapter EM to turbo



Bo Gunnar

Reply #10July 20, 2017, 12:05:33 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2017, 12:05:33 pm »
Ok - a 3800 RPM rev limit means the injection pump will need some tweaking to be truly useful. These engines will happily do 5200 RPM without issue, if the pump cuts fuel at 3800 you'll be leaving a lot of performance / driveablity on the table.

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Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #11July 24, 2017, 10:45:19 am

LucasMolen

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 10:45:19 am »
Lucas, I have no build thread. I will post pics thou.
" I just found the service manual for the AGK ". I think you have no use of this engine, just only the pump. The LT pump is slotted, but use the ALH hub/sprocket as Bryn suggest. You get the best of two worlds! I like the big mass in the ALH system - it lessens the uneven torque used by the pump - it works as a flywheel - gives longer belt life ( sorry I cant explain it better with my swinglish).
Glowplugg. Do it the simple way Bryn suggests. No lights, no timing relays, that's why we like mTDIs isn't it?
 As the plugs draws many amps you get a good idea on what is going on by the warning lights in dash panel, they are dimmed if at least some plugs are working. I have had it in my Volvo/ VW 1,6 TD for more than 10 years.

Bryn, "What was the redline of the AGK?" This is from the
VW LT leaflet:"(125 PS) bei 3500 1/min. (rev.limit 3800)"

  My engine will go into a Volvo 745. With that big engine compartment I have a lot more freedom to build the engine than you have. Keep that in mind when you see my pics!
Its only in rear end of engine block I am short of space.
 
Stil to design: mechanical VNT control. 1000 lines of code and 400 soldering points keeps me away from electronic control.

PD inlet manifold, Volvo D5 GT2252v turbo
(Pics)

Thank you for the pictures and the great info BGA. To me it seems the LT pump will fit my needs the best. I already contact a local diesel specialist to inquire about having pump checked and changing the rev limiting. It seems pretty costly, but I feel this is the way to go for me.

@vanbcguy: That's definitely true. So I will need to have that fixed.

Do you guys have experience with turbo's without vnt that more or less fit plug and play on the stock exhaust manifold of the AFN engine? I would like to have around 125-150hp. Could you recommend a turbo to me as a place to start my research? Could I still use the standard AFN nozzles, or do I have to upgrade these too?

Edit: I was looking at the other 'standard' turbo's from the 1.9 TDI family, but I can't really see which turbo's are useable. As far as I know most are electronically controlled and I really need a wastegate actuated turbo as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 11:02:44 am by LucasMolen »

Reply #12July 24, 2017, 11:45:53 am

vanbcguy

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 11:45:53 am »
You'll likely have to go a bit custom on the turbo as there weren't really any stock wastegate options around that power level. Making an adapter or having one made isn't THAT difficult though - you're just talking about a flat piece of steel with some holes in it.

The go-to wastegate turbo lately has been one of the smaller Holset ones - search Holset on here and you should find the model number etc.

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Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #13July 25, 2017, 04:52:59 pm

LucasMolen

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2017, 04:52:59 pm »
You'll likely have to go a bit custom on the turbo as there weren't really any stock wastegate options around that power level. Making an adapter or having one made isn't THAT difficult though - you're just talking about a flat piece of steel with some holes in it.

The go-to wastegate turbo lately has been one of the smaller Holset ones - search Holset on here and you should find the model number etc.

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I have searched, but couldn't really find the specific Holset type. I have been looking through the forum and other forums to get some pointers to what turbo would be appropriate. I have been looking at multiple possibilities. If I ask my question differently, maybe you can give a more concrete recommendation. If I plan on using the stock AFN nozzles and want to run a LT pump, could you give me some options (or specific threads with info) for turbo's that would fit my car/setup? Would the holset be one of the best choices in your opinion? I'm sorry if I sound like a spoilt kid who seems like he doesn't want to put in the work. I am really looking at a lot of info, but my lack of true experience with a project like this might make me blind to obvious stuff.

Edit:  I was also pointed in the direction of a GT2052 or K16. Would these be a candidate?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 04:59:53 pm by LucasMolen »

Reply #14July 25, 2017, 06:20:54 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: M-tdi on AFN engine in Golf 1
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2017, 06:20:54 pm »
Stock nozzles are fine to start with, though you'll probably want to upgrade over time. The issue running the stockers is injection duration - the smaller the nozzle the longer it needs to spray to get the same power output. There's only a very short window of time where the piston is optimally positioned for the best combustion.

I think the Holset is an he200wg but I can't be sure. Alcaid (a member here) was selling them for a while.

A GT2052 would work fine - there's a few of those on TDIclub that I seem to remember. I believe there are 3 different versions of that particular turbo. Garret has a tool for selecting turbos on their site that you can play with.

Haven't heard of anyone running a K16. Generally speaking the K## refers to a particular size class of turbo then there are many variations within the class - a K24 from a Porsche is quite different from the one on a 1.6TD for instance.



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Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen