Help diagnosing starting issue again...

[jhonyquest97]

1981 Caddy 1.6 na

I just pulled the motor to do a host of things including rust repair in the bay.  Timing belt, head gasket, glow plugs, clutch, 5 spd swap new rad and hoses, water pump etc...  Now the motor is back in and it's having issues starting.  The motor will crank over by hand and key but not run.  Here's what I've tested.

12v at plug number four
solenoid on pump clicks on with ignition
fuel at connection going into the fuel filter
fuel at IP (in) connection
fuel drips out when connection at injectors are loose
cranked motor multiple times


Is it the the timing of the pump is off?  I used a dial and it's got to be at least close.  Would it not start if its just s little bit off?

Thanks for any help

[ORCoaster]

When You crack the injectors and crank the engine does fuel squirt out the top?  Fuel dripping from a loose injector might just be fuel in the line above the injector leaking out.  It should be a good amount. 

12 volts at #4 cylinder only means that plug is getting voltage.  If you cycle the glow plugs a couple or three times until the click of the relay is heard and then go touch them in the block they should be warm.  Are they?

How long was this engine under repair and in pieces?  Could the IP have gone dry?  Did you remove the Out bolt and fill it up before starting?  Even if you did after you fill it you should rotate the engine by hand a turn and check to see if there needs to be more placed in there.  Do that a couple of times and you get most of the air out of the pump.

Timing!  The bane of the VW diesel,  did you verify the TDC on #1 cylinder with the cam lobes pointed up?  Once you timed it did you turn it over by hand a few times and check it?  #1 cylinder is the one to use to time the bugger, not #4.

When You are trying to crank it over are you placing your foot on the throttle about 1/3 to 1/2 way down? 

When turning it over do you have a good strong battery or have it hooked to a starter or jumper source for extra juice.  You really gotta spin that engine.

Those are the items that come to my mind.  Other better minds may chime in later. 

Good luck, it is so nice to hear it bark after you get to this point. 

[jhonyquest97]

When You crack the injectors and crank the engine does fuel squirt out the top?  Fuel dripping from a loose injector might just be fuel in the line above the injector leaking out.  It should be a good amount. Should i crack all 4 or just one at a time?

12 volts at #4 cylinder only means that plug is getting voltage.  If you cycle the glow plugs a couple or three times until the click of the relay is heard and then go touch them in the block they should be warm.  Are they?I'll check this out

How long was this engine under repair and in pieces?  Could the IP have gone dry?  Did you remove the Out bolt and fill it up before starting?  Even if you did after you fill it you should rotate the engine by hand a turn and check to see if there needs to be more placed in there.  Do that a couple of times and you get most of the air out of the pump. It was about 8 months. I bet it would help.

Timing!  The bane of the VW diesel,  did you verify the TDC on #1 cylinder with the cam lobes pointed up?  Once you timed it did you turn it over by hand a few times and check it?  #1 cylinder is the one to use to time the bugger, not #4.Did this for sure

When You are trying to crank it over are you placing your foot on the throttle about 1/3 to 1/2 way down?  nope, i'm assuming this means do it

When turning it over do you have a good strong battery or have it hooked to a starter or jumper source for extra juice.  You really gotta spin that engine.Yes its on a jumper

Thanks for all the info.  Good ideas i will try this morning and tomorrow. 

[RunninWild]

Yes crack all four injector nuts fairly loose and have someone watch them as you crank the engine until fuel starts squirting out of each, then tighten them. I'm willing to bet this is your issue. I also usually pump the throttle while cranking, especially on cold starts. The pumps are mechanical and more fuel going in the engine typically helps them start a lot easier. My golf was hard to start without the throttle and even if it would get going it would usually choke out and die as soon as it fired. holding the throttle made it start first crank every time and would never choke out after it did start. When you do eventually get it to fire you will probably need to give it 1/2- full throttle for a few seconds until all the air bubbles are purged from the pump/injectors, at this point it should idle fine and start easily. Assuming your glow plugs are good that is...

I highly suggest a cheap 12v inline lift pump. You don't need it running all the time but it makes bleeding the system way easier whenever you do play with the timing or the pump/injectors/fuel filter. I have mine pre-filter and bare wires which I just put in the battery clamps when needed.

[jhonyquest97]

So heres the update. 

I filled the bone dry IP through the "out" port

Cracked the unions at the injectors and cranked a bit.  I had a rag there so i'm not 100% how much came out. 
Cranked engine and it started, but i let my foot off the pedal out of excitement  Then it stalled... Won't start again lol.

I double checked timing 2x and it's at .98.  Hand cranked through 3 cylinders with good pressure then release and no grinding or clinking.

I am going to really loosen the unions at the injectors when my wife gets home so I can watch and she starts it.  Then retry again.  I'm assuming it's going to make a nice mess all over the clean bay.

[jhonyquest97]

She's alive!

I had to keep the pedal down about 1/2 way to keep it running but its a start.  It's also extremely noisy. (clacking)

I'm assuming it's just a matter if getting the timing dialed in better right?


Thank you guys.  Always info on here that's not to be found anywhere else!   i owe you a beer.

[ORCoaster]

Let it run a bit and rev it some.  You might need to get air out of the system and then the injectors will quiet down.  If your timing is as you say I wouldn't think it would be that noisy.  But you can try less advance and see how that sounds.  Every pump and engine are different.  Our recommendations are just that.  If they aren't working move to one side or the other and see what result that gives you.  Glad you at least got it turning over and running.

[jhonyquest97]

Update:  I was able to start it multiple times and let it run while i was waiting on some 5 speed linkage parts to come in.  I adjusted the IP while the motor was running and didn't notice a difference. 

Today i got it off the stands and drove it out of the driveway an around the block.   
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v47/Jhonyquest97/98BF79B4-986D-4DCA-B408-15010808AFD0_zps9xxfdt9l.jpg


However... when i got it into the driveway and let it idle for a while (still smoking from the tail) the engine made a noticeable change in idle speed.  Then it bogged down and stalled.  Wouldn't start up again and i drained the battery trying.  I also didn't notice the rad fan turn on but it was only running for about 10 minutes.  The temp gauge was found 3/4 or less.  It was also really clacking when i was driving/accelerating, more than i remember although i had the hood off.

Here's some steps of how it runs...
1- Pull cold start knob out and turn the ignition on. waited for the plug light to go out.
2 - cranked over the motor for about 5-6 secs with the pedal 3/4 of the way down and it started up.
3 - keep my foot 1/2 way on the pedal to keep motor running otherwise it will stall.
4 - slowly over about a 2 minute period let off the pedal until it idles on its own.

Is it possible that the timing belt is off a tooth or something?

I know this is a ton of info but any help is great!  I figure if i can't figure it out i have a vw mech around me that always has mark1's and 2's so i can just flat bed her over there.

[ORCoaster]

Is it possible that the IP was not secured at all four points.  Sometimes I miss the one under the pump as I change from a 13 mm ratchet wrench to a 13mm deep socket to get to the one through the pulley.  I now start at the back end and get that one first, then catch the pulley and switch wrenches and finish off on the top two. 

If you move the pump and then don't crack the 17 mm nuts on the back to relieve the tension there may be enough pushing going on that a loose pump would return to a former retarded position. 

Other thought is that the head is not down tight.  You might just get by with cracking each head bolt loose and then back down to 67 ft lbs.  Follow the pattern in the Bentley.  Middle first then out towards the edges. 

[jhonyquest97]

I can get in there and do the second round o tightening on the head and see if it helps.  They're stretch bolts so i have a 3 stage tightening process according to the bentley.  The pumps on there nice and tight.  I checked all 4 before i ran it to verify cause i was messing with it last time.  I'll check out the head today.

[vanbcguy]

There's fuel in the tank, right? Do you have clear fuel lines?

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[jhonyquest97]

I don't have clear fuel lines.  There's definitely fuel in the tank though, i filled it before i pulled the motor.

I also went in and tightened the head bolts 1/4 turn as per the bentley because I did not do that after the motor warmed up.  However it didn't start when i tried and i drained the battery.  I'll try tonight or tomorrow morning.

[ORCoaster]

Might just check the timing before you start on the next battery draining session.  Since you suspect a belt skip it is easy enough to just pop the nut off the back of the IP, place the gauge in there and rotate the engine by hand to TDC.  Then do the proper backup of the cam and set the dial and see what you got for timing. 

[jhonyquest97]

LOL

Update...

I'm stupid

I took the belt off and reseated it.  Then i dialed the IP... and it hit me... i had the cold start pulled the first time...  Starts better than my mkv now.  Drove her to work today!

My issues now is a bad shake when turning right.  I suspecting a bad cv joint from all the odd movement while pulling the motor and such.  To clarify if it's shaking when i turn right it most likely the left cv thats shot?

[ORCoaster]

Good you got it running. 

As for the shakes, when turning right that wheel is trying to go faster than the left so there is pressure on the left to slow down.  I would jack it up and give it the shakes.  On the outside of the wheel, like a steering wheel and feel for play.  Then crawl underneath and do the twist on the shaft to the transmission.  Then a push and pull of that shaft to see if either of the two joints are loose in some way.

I would make sure both wheels are off the ground and transmission is in neutral and then check again with it in gear, 2nd would do fine.