Merry Xmas to me..valves hitting pistons. Help

[Heron]

Trying to get this timing belt on this 1.6..

Before removing belt I:

Made sure lobes of cylinder one were up, crank at TDC, IP slots lined up and IP lock in.

Went to re-install today, thought it would be a snap.

Had to reinstall IP as it needed a couple of seals.

Had to spin the cam just a little bit at first to get the slot just right when the crank was at TDC

Got the new belt on, tensioned etc... spun by hand and BIND....?

I know nothing moved as it has all been locked since belt removal and Crank has stayed at TDC, only thing off was the ip.

What is the first, easiest things to try...back off the crank 90, turn the cam?

[TylerDurden]

I'd loosen the cam sprocket and reset the cam, and ensure that the flywheel really is at TDC.

If you don't have the camshaft tool, you can use a flat plate and two sets of feeler gauges.

[vanbcguy]

I second Tyler's advice. Double check you have the correct TDC mark and set the cam properly - pop the sprocket loose and set it up.

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk

[libbydiesel]

A few very basic thoughts come to mind.  You pulled the cam lock?  And the pump lock?  You put the trans in neutral too?

[ORCoaster]

Sounds like a normal result to getting the valves just past where they need to be and now they are hitting the piston.  Your belt needs to come back a couple of teeth.  I didn't see where you loosened the cam sprocket at all.  That is what the guys are telling you to do to fix this problem.  Basically a redo of the initial timing. 

Put the plate back in the back of the cam.  Insert the IP pin and THEN loosen the cam nut, double check the timing at TDC I bet you find it off by about a half and inch from the spot it should be.  Bump the belt off and reset all initial points.

What most people fail doing for a timing belt install is to loosen the cam pulley.   It has to float free when you put the tensioner up against the belt.  The IP and the crank stay put in respect to one another and the tensioner tightens the slack from the crank up through the cam and then to the IP.  Twisting the belt between the Cam and IP to a 45 degree angle gets you tight enough.  But if you never loosen that cam nut so the pulley moves but the cam itself does not, it is pinned in back, then you will get it out of time enough to do the clunk you are hearing.

So Close but no Cigar.  Do it again sir.  With the cam pulley free to move on the cam itself.  I bet you will get it. 

[Heron]

What is strange about this is when I took the original belt off the timing mark was maybe 1/8" after TDC. When I tried to get the cam lock plate in at perfect TDC(with original belt) I could not get it in. It was off just a tiny bit.  The truck ran great initially.
So, when putting the new belt on I positioned it just before TDC with cam lock in(#1 cylinder lobes  up), I found I had to rotate the IP pulley very little CW to get the grooves in. When all was done, the marks on the ip bracket were perfect(better than before) and everything tensioned up well the TDC mark was right on. 
Well, went to turn it and it bound.
So, redid it, moved it a tiny bit after TDC(like before but not as much), tensioned and it doesn't bind now...? Only thing I can think is the flywheel was not installed perfectly...?
Would you call it good to go or should I do something differently?

[TylerDurden]

"So, redid it, moved it a tiny bit after TDC(like before but not as much), tensioned and it doesn't bind now...? Only thing I can think is the flywheel was not installed perfectly...?
Would you call it good to go or should I do something differently?"

Reality check here ...
The flywheel is most likely fine, the camshaft is most likely out of time. 

Loosen the cam bolt three turns, put a puller on the sprocket really snug and give the sprocket a rap with a mallet & punch from the back to loosen it.

Set the crank at TDC, set the cam, tighten the belt and set the pump. Done.

[Heron]

"So, redid it, moved it a tiny bit after TDC(like before but not as much), tensioned and it doesn't bind now...? Only thing I can think is the flywheel was not installed perfectly...?
Would you call it good to go or should I do something differently?"

Reality check here ...
The flywheel is most likely fine, the camshaft is most likely out of time. 

Loosen the cam bolt three turns, put a puller on the sprocket really snug and give the sprocket a rap with a mallet & punch from the back to loosen it.

Set the crank at TDC, set the cam, tighten the belt and set the pump. Done.

I had the camshaft pulley off totally, I had to turn the crankshaft to get the lock in place so that was considered. When I put the belt on I started from the bottom, tensioned it up over the intermed.  pulley and around the ip(had to turn the ip very little CW), keeping tension on the tensioner side, then put the cam sprocket into the belt and slid the sprocket on to the taper. All teeth engaged perfectly.
This is why it's not making sense, cam lock in perfectly(cyl 1 lobes up) and with the belt tensioned with the mark perfectly on TDC I get binding(TDC is very clear).
Move the crank(without belt on of course) an 1/8" past TDC and no bind...? Again, this is where it was when I took the original belt off...mystery?
Could I be just a tooth off? Can one tooth make a difference with binding....?

[TylerDurden]

Can't hurt to check the valve clearances, so I'd probably go there next.

[Heron]

Can't hurt to check the valve clearances, so I'd probably go there next.

I ended up loosening the cam sprocket again with the ip lock in and the cam lock in. Turned the crank to get it right on TDC. Tensioned her up, torqued the pulley(without the lock in) and spun it again.
This time no binding like before.

Now the question is...the tolerances, could it still be binding a bit and I just cannot feel it? I've spun it totally over several times and the only time it gets tight it compression stroke but once I let the air dissipate it continues to turn easily.
I've got the pump timed to 95.

Do you happen to know if it matters how far the dial indicators turn when you are trying to lock it down with the set screw as long as you zero it and add the preload? 
First time I've used the dial indicator, the rod is either too short or too long, I added a spacer to the two fitting provided so the shaft would be tight.
When I put the dial indicator on I was not sure if it couldn't spin at all and you just put 2mm preload.
I'd think it doesn't matter as long as you have the baseline reading at TDC and then you move the pump to get the right lift..?

[TylerDurden]

When I put the dial indicator on I was not sure if it couldn't spin at all and you just put 2mm preload.
I'd think it doesn't matter as long as you have the baseline reading at TDC and then you move the pump to get the right lift..?

The IP plunger has (in some cases) a little over 2mm total travel, so I usually put plenty of preload (>2.5mm) before tightening the dial indicator in place.

The goal is to ensure when you turn back the engine to find the bottom of the slope, the indicator doesn't bottom out on itself, creating a false reading. Finding the bottom of the slope, right at the point of start of rise, is crucial to accurate timing. I typically check for free indicator shaft movement and consistent readings before calling it done.

To make things more fun, if your dial indicator is slightly askew, its shaft may bind in the adapter or dance between the hole in the center of the IP plunger and the plunger endface, causing a as much as 0.010" (0.25mm) error.

YMMV...

[Heron]

When I put the dial indicator on I was not sure if it couldn't spin at all and you just put 2mm preload.
I'd think it doesn't matter as long as you have the baseline reading at TDC and then you move the pump to get the right lift..?

The IP plunger has (in some cases) a little over 2mm total travel, so I usually put plenty of preload (>2.5mm) before tightening the dial indicator in place.

The goal is to ensure when you turn back the engine to find the bottom of the slope, the indicator doesn't bottom out on itself, creating a false reading. Finding the bottom of the slope, right at the point of start of rise, is crucial to accurate timing. I typically check for free indicator shaft movement and consistent readings before calling it done.

To make things more fun, if your dial indicator is slightly askew, its shaft may bind in the adapter or dance between the hole in the center of the IP plunger and the plunger endface, causing a as much as 0.010" (0.25mm) error.

YMMV...

Not good, the shaft on my dial tool has thread on one end and a thicker blunt side. There are two shafts, one short and one long. I used the longer one but had to attach two of the couplings together with a nut in between so I could slide the dial in far enough for the screw to grab it and secure it in place.
I installed the dial in and the dial probably spun around a few times before I was able to lock down the dial.
I zero'd it and added preload(which I prob didn't have to) and then rolled motor back and all went as it should
I set it at 95 and rechecked it all over again and it came up to 94. I left it at that... now you've got me worried.
Always something.
I may pull the valve cover again and redo the process..I had never heard about the depression in the plunger...should I use the threaded end in or out?
Should I make sure when I get the dial indicator in place it only has 2mm of preload? Not a bunch ?

[TylerDurden]

2.5-3mm preload is good, as long as you have free movement at full lift and zero lift.

Again, the preload is to prevent the dial indicator from bottoming out on itself before it gets to the bottom of the slope on the camplate.

"Zero" the gauge at the bottom of the slope and roll back up to TDC for your reading/adjusting.

[Heron]

2.5-3mm preload is good, as long as you have free movement at full lift and zero lift.

Again, the preload is to prevent the dial indicator from bottoming out on itself before it gets to the bottom of the slope on the camplate.

"Zero" the gauge at the bottom of the slope and roll back up to TDC for your reading/adjusting.

Figured it out. I had to unscrew the little knob on the bottom of the dial indicator and screw in the rod.
Got it together, checked it again today and it read 94.

Got it up and running and it starts with virtually no delay.

I've got two further questions, not sure if I should begin a new thread but maybe someone reading this can chime in:

1. The starter solenoid is not engaging every time. It just free spins and then clunks really loud.
     Then, if I do it again it will catch and start the engine with ease.
     This is the second reman'd starter from two entirely different places that have done the same thing so I don't think it's the starter
      Could it be a worn bushing that the end of the starter shaft sits in? It looks fine...?

2. What is the exciter wire?  The charging light will not go off, even when I rev it up. I had the alternator checked and it is good. I've read here and there
    about this wire but cannot find anything exact as far as what to do...I've cleaned the ground going to the transmission and the ground going to the chasis 
   5" from the other. Are there more?

[TylerDurden]

Glad to hear the timing is sorted.

not sure if I should begin a new thread...

Let's do that, the topic title will better reflect the discussion.