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Author Topic: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf  (Read 1011 times)

March 04, 2018, 04:01:39 pm

damac

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not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« on: March 04, 2018, 04:01:39 pm »
its taken me a year to get to this point after lots of research and working on it myself.   right now i have just taken the car up and down a road in 1st and second gear.  i just got my gauges installed and need to wait a few days for windshield install to dry.

i have an alh with rover 300 pump stock, stock injectors, and holset he2000wg with a boost controller allowing peak boost at 20 psi. boost gage is taking reading from the turbo charge pipe?

i think i have the car timed at 1.54mm.  not allot of clack.  no puffing smoke at idle and it starts right up with no glowplugs in 50 degrees.  there is some hazy smoke when i stomp on it in the driveway.

i am using sp auto intercooler/radiator.

cars oil pressure after warmup cycle reads 24psi at flange idle.

coolant temp reads 197 with sender in side head fitting and it took some driving and a while to warmup in driveway before this first fan cycle hit.  using the heater cools temps even lower, heat isn't hot hot but from what i read its normal for these engines.

so these initial runs are just making sure everything works, not leaking, etc.  im thinking its healthy, i can hear the turbo whistle, i have no exhaust on right now.  i assume since boost builds fast i don't have leaks.

i have not hit 1000 egt yet when stomping on it.

i think i have felt the rev limiter in this application at those times where car hits a wall.  i can hit it at idle too with foot down to the floor.  i have seen 6psi on boost gage when doing that.


so i peeled out and revved hard in 1st gear, seems stronger than my rabbit 1.6td.  second gear if i pounded into it and stomped on pedal continued.  im not sure how strong this is and if it will hold up on hills better than rabbit at this point.  what scared me is with car rolling in second gear and stomping on it there is a dead zone which reminds me of times with the rabbit.  i was hoping for maybe a pause and then building boost but its really gutless down low.  im not sure if thats just second gear with the 02a diesel tranny im using or what.  im worried i will be driving at times and not be able to recover it was very wierd feeling.  couldn't see starting in second which is kind of what i was trying to do with a slow rolling start.


just wanted to check in with people smarter than me.

i am curious if its normal for the car to boost so high with stock rover pump settings?  what psi is the max for stock alh engine? 

what happens in my case if you add fuel and did the governor mod without upping the boost?

i want to get great mileage with this car and commute 260 miles/day.  my drive is pretty much freeway with zig zags and transitions where i need to have some power to pass, etc.  mostly hope to travel at times so i can keep the car steady cruising at 80mph


1985 turbo diesel jetta

Reply #1March 04, 2018, 04:08:09 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2018, 04:08:09 pm »
I assume you are using the ALH hub and sprocket.  The LR hub is installed with the slot/hole lined up when the keyway on the pump shaft is pointing at the delivery valve for the #4 injector line.  The ALH hub needs to be installed with the keyway pointing at the #1 delivery valve (shaft rotated 180).  Is there any chance you missed that step?  It will start and run 180 but will be a lackluster.
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Reply #2March 05, 2018, 03:01:51 pm

damac

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2018, 03:01:51 pm »
thank you, i did do my reading on that one and had the dial gage in when mounting and pinning the alh hub to the rover pump.  i also shimmed and drilled the timing plug hole on the pump so i could fit the alh timing tool pin in there instead of letting something wobble around.  so im pretty sure im good there.

i wouldn't call 1st gear lethargic at all.  and maybe not even second when stomping on it.   for some reason i assumed i might be able to start off in second gear just rolling and stomp on it and have the car rev out, then hit boost and climb.  my rabbit 1.6td seems like it would do better in this case off the bottom.  but that car stock is also a slug when chopping the throttle and trying to get back into boost.  many hills i have been on i had to keep the pedal to the floor to maintain up a grade, etc.

it just really sticks out to me, i shall see what happens i guess when i really get to drive it i am just worried.  i guess this is a drawback to the vnt turbos in these cars right?  i won't be able to play around at low rpms as much and will need to attack like with the rabbit.

i am hoping i can get to 70-80mph speeds fast when merging onto freeway in 4th gear i assume?  i also hope while cruising in fifth gear that i have the ability to regulate some power with the throttle, unlike the rabbit which is all or nothing.
1985 turbo diesel jetta

Reply #3March 05, 2018, 03:49:23 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2018, 03:49:23 pm »
thank you, i did do my reading on that one and had the dial gage in when mounting and pinning the alh hub to the rover pump.  i also shimmed and drilled the timing plug hole on the pump so i could fit the alh timing tool pin in there instead of letting something wobble around.  so im pretty sure im good there.

In your response you do not say anything about making sure the shaft keyway was pointing at the #1 delivery valve when setting the plunger lift so I want to make sure you really get what I'm saying.  You can get the same plunger lift reading 4 times per pump shaft revolution - once for each injector.  The rover hub/pin is set for VW's #4 injector.  In order to correctly time the VW, though, you need to set it for the #1 injector.  This means that the VW hub needs to be installed rotated so the slot is 180 from where the slot was in the Rover hub.  Are you sure that you aligned the keyway slot in the pump shaft with the #1 delivery valve prior to adjusting to your 1.54 plunger lift?  If not, and the hub is 180, it will still start and run but will not have the power it should.

As far as off-boost performance, the ALH should give off-boost performance similar to a 1.6TD when it is boosting full stock boost.  With decent fueling and 20lbs of boost in a mk2, that car should really rip. 
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Reply #4March 05, 2018, 05:25:15 pm

damac

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2018, 05:25:15 pm »
the keyway when finding tdc with gauge was pointing towards the top rear delivery valve looking at pump installed installed in the car?
1985 turbo diesel jetta

Reply #5March 05, 2018, 07:17:14 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2018, 07:17:14 pm »
TDC doesn't really apply until the pump is installed on the engine. 

The top delivery valve that is on the engine side of the pump is for the #1 cylinder.

The pump shaft keyway is covered/hidden by the hub when the hub is installed. 

Prior to installing the hub, when you locked the pump shaft at your 1.54mm plunger lift, was the keyway also aligned toward the #1 delivery valve?
Use, abuse or ignorance of any information is at your own risk, confirmation or refutation is your own responsibility, no further 'proof' will be given, take it or leave it, YMMV,terms subject to change without notice, avoid contact with eyes or skin, contents known to cause cancer in California

Reply #6March 05, 2018, 08:54:25 pm

damac

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2018, 08:54:25 pm »
yes i installed the hub with the pump off the car with that port as #1 since i thought i had copied it down from the forums.  so did i do that right in that i was shooting for that timing number with the tdi timing pin inserted into the pump?  so that gives me the baseline number and i could use the alh timing tools and then have room for adjustment? 

also looks like i hit 1000 egt this time when really on it.

i just went out on my first real drive and now im really wondering if the boost is at the right source?  i really pounded on the car and it hit 23 psi using port on turbo charge pipe.  is it possible that is inflated over intake measurement?  i noticed i left some cloudy smoke clouds driving like this so the car behind me backed off :)

car cruises with a tad of boost and if i stomp on it, it does slowly go up while revving and then i can feel a little kick and it hits the high end quicker.  i can feel the pump revs limiting while this is going on, it feels like the car wants to pull more but can't.


and i just noticed my mistake that im running tires 4% higher than stock.  not sure how significant that is on these cars but i wanted to go with stock height and slightly wider rims.
1985 turbo diesel jetta

Reply #7March 05, 2018, 09:45:38 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2018, 09:45:38 pm »
yes i installed the hub with the pump off the car with that port as #1 since i thought i had copied it down from the forums.  so did i do that right in that i was shooting for that timing number with the tdi timing pin inserted into the pump?  so that gives me the baseline number and i could use the alh timing tools and then have room for adjustment?

To be totally clear, as you rotate the pump shaft, the plunger will lift and descend 4 times during a single revolution of the sprocket, once for each of the delivery valves.  Assuming you were rotating the shaft clockwise (looking at the sprocket side of pump) AND the keyway in the shaft was pointing toward the #1 delivery valve AND the dial indicator measurement was increasing, then it is correct. 

I have not ever used the Holset turbo so I can't really comment on its properties other than as hearsay.

Measuring at the turbo will give a bit higher reading than at the intake manifold.
 
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Reply #8March 05, 2018, 11:45:48 pm

damac

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2018, 11:45:48 pm »
ok we are on the same page on how i set the the pump up, i had saved notes long ago from the site :)  then i had to pin the pump with a bolt that fit through side to hold the shaft when i tightened it down and although i don't think it moved during that, i suppose i may not have been exact. 

i will put the gauge on the intake hose and see what gauge says and report back.

need to fix a coolant leak, put door seals and side mirror on and then i will take it on the highway :)

i have aaa towing so im just gonna say screw it.

any feedback on how the gears should work?  i have a feeling my speedo was off more than 4%.

i have no tach im curious what gear i should be in if mashing the pedal to merge onto freeway at 70-80mph?
1985 turbo diesel jetta

Reply #9March 06, 2018, 03:47:30 pm

damac

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 03:47:30 pm »
ok i went and pounded on the car on freeways and i have a feeling i am expecting too much?  i have been daily driving a new mazda 3 hatchback with 2.0 engine for like 10 months while i work on the old vw's. 

i was actually just barely able to beat the mazdas record for getting on the freeway at 80mph so i can go with flow with traffic by the time i merge but i had to floor it and 5th gear felt lackluster.  with it floored in fifth even if cruising at a few psi boost the car doesn't really take off, i have to pin it and hold on while it builds boost.  even then its more of a pin it and go vs. the mazda.

i also noticed driving this way that i hit over 1300 on the egt a few times and leaving it pinned with max boost of 21 didn't clear that up.

in ways it definately goes i think faster than some of todays new economy cars because i was looking at various base models and it was a no go with freeway driving for me.

i don't understand the relationship between all these factors.  in the lower gears the car has a bit of boost cruising and that gauge shoots up when i stomp on it then and then i can feel the redline of the pump i assume.

i assume some of my lag is intercooler and wastegate turbo.

im worried the car doesn't seem like you could lug it in fifth gear at all and i feel its definately way less responsive stomping on it at 80mph vs. the mazda.
1985 turbo diesel jetta

Reply #10September 21, 2018, 01:34:45 pm

Ibuprofen

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2018, 01:34:45 pm »

In your response you do not say anything about making sure the shaft keyway was pointing at the #1 delivery valve when setting the plunger lift so I want to make sure you really get what I'm saying.  You can get the same plunger lift reading 4 times per pump shaft revolution - once for each injector.  The rover hub/pin is set for VW's #4 injector.  In order to correctly time the VW, though, you need to set it for the #1 injector.  This means that the VW hub needs to be installed rotated so the slot is 180 from where the slot was in the Rover hub.

Does the ALH hub have only one keyway slot? I didn't ask my pump rebuilder to make any changes in this regard and my pump was installed with the ALH hub timing slot in the vicinity of the #1 injector on the VW engine. My van is gutless at highway speeds and it sounds like I need to rotate the hub 180. Is there a way for folks to know which delivery valve the pump is at without special tools or opening the pump? Thanks
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 01:44:15 pm by Ibuprofen »

Reply #11September 21, 2018, 03:16:11 pm

Ibuprofen

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2018, 03:16:11 pm »
To answer my own question you can rotate the pump with the injection lines off and if the pump is pushing fuel you will see a little bubble at the delivery valve each injection event. My pump was not 180 out but I'll start a different thread to address my lumpy vanagon.

Reply #12September 25, 2018, 03:01:13 pm

damac

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2018, 03:01:13 pm »
To answer my own question you can rotate the pump with the injection lines off and if the pump is pushing fuel you will see a little bubble at the delivery valve each injection event. My pump was not 180 out but I'll start a different thread to address my lumpy vanagon.

i got my pump and seperate alh hub for this project so started from scratch.  since i was told when looking at front of pump the #1 valve was the top left, i shimmed the pump body housing so that you could insert the tdi timing tool through the alh hub setup with everything at tdc, and used the dial gage so i have 1.54 timing because thats what i thought i read was correct for my pump.  so i guess that gives me room to then move the pulley each way to time in either direction at this point.

so its definately not a guessing game.
1985 turbo diesel jetta

Reply #13September 25, 2018, 03:08:49 pm

damac

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2018, 03:08:49 pm »
also reminds me of my own project.  i had to do some exhaust work and misc. and frankly left the car alone because its annoying me.  i now am regretting ignoring all the people that told me to go electrical :)

car is road worthy now but im still not sure what is going on.  if i hold the pedal down i get a tiny bit of turbo lag but then it hits and build up quick boost like 25+ before i have to let off the pedal because im also seeing spikes of 1400+ on egt gage.

i can feel the rev limiter in there hit a wall as well but im simply not ok with just pinning the throttle and holding it because of these gage spikes and fear of breaking things.

until i can really drive it cant fully judge performance.  i know its better than a 1.6td but am still left unimpressed.  part of it may be because my speedo is off 20+ mph which i cant find out how to fix, but i thought maybe the car would be quicker.  it seems nasty in low gears around town.  wonder if that would even be worse if i got rid of rev limiter?

im scared of fifth gear because the same thing happens with the gages and im basically pinning it and holding on.  not sure if it will hold up on hills. 


i will say the temps and boost come down when cruising and backing off the stomping of the pedal and i was doing that ok at 70-80mph.



not sure how to tune it, i assume i have enough fuel?  not sure if i should do governor mod and/or get some aftermarket injectors then revisit?
1985 turbo diesel jetta

Reply #14September 25, 2018, 08:28:01 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: not impressed with mtdi in mk2 golf
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2018, 08:28:01 pm »
i now am regretting ignoring all the people that told me to go electrical :)

You should probably do that then.  Once you get the eTDI conversion done and it still runs like ***, be sure to report back so others know that the issues you had weren't because of it being an mTDI vs. eTDI.  You can be this guy next:  http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,37450.0.html 
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