Author Topic: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!  (Read 13138 times)

Reply #15June 23, 2016, 03:29:02 pm

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2016, 03:29:02 pm »
What's that 'side bolt' do? I'm not going to f*** something up putting a longer one in there to 'lock the shaft'?  And do you have any pics of the bracket that I'm going to make to give me a 4th mounting point on the delivery side of the pump?
thanks a bunch for putting up with my dumb ass!!!!
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #16June 23, 2016, 04:40:07 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2016, 04:40:07 pm »
The side bolt plugs the hole that is there specifically for holding the shaft at the desired position for installing the hub.  It doesn't do anything else, it is just a plug.

All of the VW pumps have a 4th mounting bolt below the 4 delivery valves.  They also all have a flat metal plate that accepts the 4th bolt.  The LR pump also has a similar plate for a similar function, but the bolt location/hole is on the wrong side of the pump.  Look at the stock pump or your jetta pump for reference.

Reply #17June 23, 2016, 06:33:42 pm

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2016, 06:33:42 pm »
you're the man!
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #18July 20, 2016, 06:43:22 pm

Zeitgeist

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2016, 06:43:22 pm »
I'm getting ready to remove the LR hub (300TDI pump) and install an ALH version.  Does this side bolt just serve to freeze the shaft in position when cranked down, once the desired position has been reached via the dial indicator, or does it fit into a slot?  I assume the former, but I'm just trying to remove as much ambiguity from a process that has very little online documentation.  What methods have others used to center the timing pin in the LR housing, since it's clearly much bigger than the slot in the ALH hub?  If I had access to a lathe, I'd machine up a bushing, but that's not yet an option. 

Also, is there a good online reference source for setting the timing belt up on an ALH?  I've done dozens of older 1.5/1.6L engines back in the day, but I don't currently have any of the sequences or torque settings in hand for this much newer engine design. 
'87 300TD (OM606)
'90 300D (OM602)
'89 Vanagon Bluestar (ALH)
'01 EV Weekender (AXK)
'04 Passat Variant (BHW)

Reply #19July 20, 2016, 07:33:00 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2016, 07:33:00 pm »
The side bolt just pinches the shaft.  There is no slot it goes into.  It can hold the shaft at any point in its rotation.  The sequence I mentioned previously is fairly comprehensive.  It's easier than you might think.

 
Rotate the shaft so that the keyway is pointing toward the #1 injector.
Install the dial indicator.
Remove the side bolt and get a longer one so you can lock the shaft position. 
With some pre-load on the indicator, rotate the shaft CCW. 
If the indicator reading immediately moves when you begin rotating the shaft, keep rotating CCW until it stops and zero the gauge.
If the indicator reading did not change when you began rotating CCW then zero the gauge.
Rotate CW until you get to the desired indicator reading. 
Lock the shaft with the side bolt.
Place the hub on the shaft with the lock pin in place.
Tighten the hub nut.
Replace the side bolt with the proper bolt.

The usual disclaimers apply - see signature.

1.40-1.45mm is a decent baseline timing spec for the LR pump.

For centering the timing pin hole in the case, I imagine you could probably order a reasonably sized bushing from mcmaster or the like. 

On my ALH automatic, I didn't do anything about the pin hole mismatch.  The camplate/rollers are pushing the sprocket CCW and so I just installed the hub with the pin pushed against the side of the hole in that direction.  It's definitely close enough to be on the correct tooth during a belt install.  For fine timing I use the pulse adapter.  You could do similar with the dial indicator. 

Places like MyTurbodiesel or tdi club have pictorials on changing the timing belt.  The pump timing will be different for an mTDI, though.  Setting the pump timing up for an mTDI would be the same as the 1.5/1.6 except instead of loosening the pump mounting bolts and rotating the pump, you loosen the sprocket to hub bolts and rotate them relative each other.   


Reply #20July 28, 2016, 05:15:37 pm

Zeitgeist

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2016, 05:15:37 pm »
Thanks, I was able to get the pump timed, but now I need the torque spec for the center nut.  It might be the same as the 1.5/1.6, but I'd rather not guess since it's a different size shaft.

[edit]I still have the Bentley for my old '96 Passat tdi, and it says the 1Z gets torqued to 41ft/lbs
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 06:14:35 pm by Zeitgeist »
'87 300TD (OM606)
'90 300D (OM602)
'89 Vanagon Bluestar (ALH)
'01 EV Weekender (AXK)
'04 Passat Variant (BHW)

Reply #21July 28, 2016, 07:10:33 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2016, 07:10:33 pm »
I haven't ever seen a torque spec for the hub to shaft nut.  The spec is listed for the single-piece sprockets,but not for the hub/sprocket.  VW just says, "Do not loosen for any reason!"  I'd go for the German torque spec of Gutentight or 45-ft-lbs.  That's just my opinion and the usual disclaimers apply. 

Reply #22July 28, 2016, 09:29:25 pm

Zeitgeist

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2016, 09:29:25 pm »
Ok, new issue with the hub...

I'm still setting it up on the bench, but when I test fit the pulley, I found that the stock bolts would hit the snout of the pump when screwed in, even finger tight.  I measured the hub to snout distance at 2.5mm.  I have another hub type pump, which I think was off of an NA 1Y engine, and it has a hub to snout distance of 4mm.  The bolts are 16mm and the face of the hub is 7mm thick. 

I believe this is an aftermarket hub, which might mean that they machined the taper incorrectly.

Any thoughts?
'87 300TD (OM606)
'90 300D (OM602)
'89 Vanagon Bluestar (ALH)
'01 EV Weekender (AXK)
'04 Passat Variant (BHW)

Reply #23July 28, 2016, 10:42:57 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2016, 10:42:57 pm »
That's correct.  The stock ALH bolts in the ALH hub hit the snout of the pump where the pin goes.  The same area on the ALH case is cast back from the hub further.  I'd recommend grinding it back the necessary amount.  An alternative is to fit shorter bolts that don't stick beyond the hub. 

Reply #24July 28, 2016, 10:49:37 pm

Zeitgeist

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2016, 10:49:37 pm »
Ok, so you're telling me this is a normal mod required of mounting the LR pumps on an ALH, then?  If so, that's a huge relief.  I had considered using shorter bolts, but was worried that the sprocket was going to be off center and the belt would walk off over time.  Many thanks!
'87 300TD (OM606)
'90 300D (OM602)
'89 Vanagon Bluestar (ALH)
'01 EV Weekender (AXK)
'04 Passat Variant (BHW)

Reply #25July 29, 2016, 12:40:17 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2016, 12:40:17 am »
Yup, totally normal.  The ALH belt will typically ride toward the block side of the pump sprocket.

Reply #26August 23, 2016, 07:27:34 pm

Zeitgeist

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2016, 07:27:34 pm »
The side bolt just pinches the shaft.  There is no slot it goes into.  It can hold the shaft at any point in its rotation.  The sequence I mentioned previously is fairly comprehensive.  It's easier than you might think.

 
Rotate the shaft so that the keyway is pointing toward the #1 injector.
Install the dial indicator.
Remove the side bolt and get a longer one so you can lock the shaft position. 
With some pre-load on the indicator, rotate the shaft CCW. 
If the indicator reading immediately moves when you begin rotating the shaft, keep rotating CCW until it stops and zero the gauge.
If the indicator reading did not change when you began rotating CCW then zero the gauge.
Rotate CW until you get to the desired indicator reading. 
Lock the shaft with the side bolt.
Place the hub on the shaft with the lock pin in place.
Tighten the hub nut.
Replace the side bolt with the proper bolt.

The usual disclaimers apply - see signature.

1.40-1.45mm is a decent baseline timing spec for the LR pump.

For centering the timing pin hole in the case, I imagine you could probably order a reasonably sized bushing from mcmaster or the like. 

On my ALH automatic, I didn't do anything about the pin hole mismatch.  The camplate/rollers are pushing the sprocket CCW and so I just installed the hub with the pin pushed against the side of the hole in that direction.  It's definitely close enough to be on the correct tooth during a belt install.  For fine timing I use the pulse adapter.  You could do similar with the dial indicator. 

Places like MyTurbodiesel or tdi club have pictorials on changing the timing belt.  The pump timing will be different for an mTDI, though.  Setting the pump timing up for an mTDI would be the same as the 1.5/1.6 except instead of loosening the pump mounting bolts and rotating the pump, you loosen the sprocket to hub bolts and rotate them relative each other.   



I was double-checking my work, and went ahead and pulled the TDI hub off again.  I need a point of clarification in the nomenclature; when you say keyway, you're referring to the one on the shaft itself, and not the locking window on the hub, right?  I looked at the LR hub and can see that the keyway was sitting at the 4:00 position underneath the hub (there's an imprint), while of course the timing window is at 12:00.  Is that roughly where the keyway would end up with #1 cyl at TDC?  I guess I'm getting paranoid that I'll somehow time the pump for TDC on the wrong cylinder.  Are there any other external clues regarding which cylinder is under injection per a given point of pump rotation?   

I was able to shim up the lockpin hole in the snout with some metal tubing.
'87 300TD (OM606)
'90 300D (OM602)
'89 Vanagon Bluestar (ALH)
'01 EV Weekender (AXK)
'04 Passat Variant (BHW)

Reply #27August 23, 2016, 07:51:20 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2016, 07:51:20 pm »
When I mention the keyway, I am talking about the machined cutout in the pump shaft.  That keyway needs to point to the delivery valve that leads to the #1 cylinder.

Here's a schematic view of the delivery valve end of the pump:



Here's a schematic view of the sprocket side of the pump:



I believe you will need to rotate the shaft 180° to get to #1.  The arrow points to the correct direction for the keyway to point at the #1 delivery valve. 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 12:49:43 am by libbydiesel »

Reply #28August 23, 2016, 09:53:42 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2016, 09:53:42 pm »
If this doesn't solve his problem it is bigger than we think. 

You took a little bit of Auto Cad and did the education.  love it.

Reply #29August 23, 2016, 09:57:39 pm

Zeitgeist

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2016, 09:57:39 pm »
Ok, as I was reading your post, I looked and I had previously set the pump exactly in that position, with the dial set at 1.45mm.  I popped the hub off of that other snouted pump I bought a while back, and it too is set up with the keyway in that position.  I think whomever rebuilt this pump set the LR hub 180 degrees out...so you can imagine my confusion.  I'm glad I double-checked my work.

Thanks again! 
'87 300TD (OM606)
'90 300D (OM602)
'89 Vanagon Bluestar (ALH)
'01 EV Weekender (AXK)
'04 Passat Variant (BHW)

 

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