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Author Topic: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!  (Read 13141 times)

June 05, 2016, 11:23:37 pm

mammonista

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Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« on: June 05, 2016, 11:23:37 pm »
So I should have come here first. Don't know what I was thinking going to one of those other lists? Please forgive me!   ;D
So at long last I have my 1.9AHU bolted to the 5-speed trans with a slightly beefier clutch, aftermarket trans mount, cable clutch, bigger axles, calibrated Bozio 520 nozzles, etc. And I'm all ready to drop it into the Mk1 Jetta  coupe

 and I post a couple of questions on that other list about timing my Landy 300TDI mechanical pump.

Sheeesh. I must have really pissed off some dude over there after I told him I couldn't figure out what the heck he was talking about. First he says not only will he not help me in the future, but then he says my entire set-up is wrong and I'm in for a world of hurt if I don't figure it out before trying to assemble. Who knew Donald Trump was into VW mTDI conversions?  ;)

So here's the deal. Bought the pump off of some shop in England on Ebay. The seller assured me it was working fine when pulled. 

Bought the pulley sprocket off some seller here in the states. He said it was made for the 2-part ALH pulley.

I had the pulley hub machined to line it up with the cam pulley/idler/belt, etc. Also had the pulley hub bolt holes reconfigured to match the sprocket. If some of this doesn't sound right, it probably isn't as I had all this stuff done about a year ago and then the Jetta project had to take back seat while I got 'Van-no-mo' back on the road with a newly rebuilt trans for the AAZ motor in it.
So 'Vanamo' is running but badly in need of finishing (rear windows, rust repair, paint job) and I need to get the Jetta running as a daily driver.
Seems like a bunch of you have done this exact same Landy mTDI conversion already and might be willing to help? Puuullleeezzz?
Does that hub sprocket combo look right? Where the heck did I get them (for future reference)? I mean are they both ALH pieces, or is the hub from the Rover pump?  Once I get the pump oriented towards fueling on number one cylinder (I understand the keyway corresponds with the fueling nozzle on the rear (I swapped the ALH nozzles for the Rover nozzles), how do I actually set the pump timing? I have a Harbor Freight dial gauge but what exactly does that tell me other then when the plunger is at the top of the stroke?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
mark


If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #1June 06, 2016, 10:35:37 am

vanbcguy

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2016, 10:35:37 am »
I used a plain ordinary unmachined ALH hub and sprocket on mine. The Rover pump shaft etc has exactly the same offset as a VW specific pump, though the Rover hub is definitely different.

I timed my pump to about 1.45mm. I started there but fine tuned with a timing light / pulse adapter, never measured the final setting. I believe it is pretty close though.

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« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 10:37:31 am by vanbcguy »
Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #2June 06, 2016, 05:14:11 pm

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2016, 05:14:11 pm »
okay, I'll admit it. I'm kinda ignorant here.
- Have the crank set at tdc (I hope - because there are actually two marks on the flywheel, one heavy mark and one slightly less heavy about six degrees to the right of the heavier one - I'm assuming the heavier mark is tdc - but I can know longer see the zero degree that was stamped on the flywheel above one of the marks because it's not covered up by bellhousing).
- Have cam set at tdc on #1 cylinder and locked in place with the plate across the back of the cam.
- Have the Rover pump keyway pointing at #1 fuel port.
- Have the timing belt on with the idler pulley and a new tensioner.

So I should...
-Tighten down the cam sprocket bolt,
-Tighten down the nut holding the pulley on the injection pump,
-Tighten the three adjusting bolts holding the IP pulley on the IP hub,
-Turn the engine through two complete revolutions to slacken the timing belt,
-Adjust the slack out of the timing belt with the tensioner,
-And...

As stated earlier I have one of these Harbor Freight dial gauges for measuring the lift (?) in the pump. So how do I set advance on the pump?   
 
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #3June 06, 2016, 11:46:59 pm

vanbcguy

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2016, 11:46:59 pm »
OK, start here:

http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

With your setup you adjust the pulley rather than moving the pump body but otherwise this is exactly what you need to do.

Your timing number should be about 1.45 mm. You won't have a locking pin hole for your pump either, but as you said you just need the keyway pointing to the #1 port.

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« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 11:49:56 pm by vanbcguy »
Bryn

1994 Jetta - AHU M-TDI - Jezebel Jetta
2004 Jetta Wagon - 1.8T - Blitzen

Reply #4June 22, 2016, 08:10:01 am

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 08:10:01 am »
Getting ready to put this this thing together. Have the ALH pulley, and the ALH adjustable sprocket, and of course the Rover 300tdi mechanical pump they mate to.
I'm still just the tiniest bit confused as how to find tdc on #1 fuel port on the pump shaft but as I understand it...
- I generally line up the keyway on the shaft with the #1 fuel port on the opposite side of the pump (the #1 fuel port obviously the one that connects via the steel fuel delivery line with the #1 injector).
- Then with a dial indicator zeroed with some preload on it I rotate the shaft a) clockwise until the dial begins to move and then counterclockwise just until it no longer moves and zero it again, or b) counter clockwise until it no longer moves and then clockwise and then counter clockwise just until it no longer moves and then zero it again... and then clockwise until it reaches 1.45mm.
- This is where I eventually want the pump when the crank and cam are at TDC on #1 cylinder?
So that when the engine is at TDC on the firing stroke on #1 the pump is at 1.45mm?
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #5June 22, 2016, 10:33:58 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2016, 10:33:58 pm »
I only have one question.     

Did you read this:::::????????http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28

I can't even begin to comprehend what it is you are trying to describe but my initial answer was going to be NEITHER  Geeezzzz I am totally confused on what it is you are trying to do.  Find TDC, Time the beast to 1.45MM?   Cranking back and forth on the shaft?///

Do you not have the timing belt on and all the necessary locks removed?  Did you get that part done and is it only the process of moving the parts and then setting the pump position that you are asking about? 

Clarity man, I need Clarity. 

Reply #6June 22, 2016, 11:02:03 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2016, 11:02:03 pm »
He has the two-part sprocket/hub so it's a little different.  He's not specifically trying to time the pump, but rather attempting to set the orientation of the hub on the pump shaft so that when the pin is installed between hub and pump case it is at least ballpark. 

There really isn't any reason to do this with the pump on the engine.  Installing the hub is easier on the bench. 

Rotate the shaft so that the keyway is pointing toward the #1 injector.
Install the dial indicator.
Remove the side bolt and get a longer one so you can lock the shaft position. 
With some pre-load on the indicator, rotate the shaft CCW. 
If the indicator reading immediately moves when you begin rotating the shaft, keep rotating CCW until it stops and zero the gauge.
If the indicator reading did not change when you began rotating CCW then zero the gauge.
Rotate CW until you get to the desired indicator reading. 
Lock the shaft with the side bolt.
Place the hub on the shaft with the lock pin in place.
Tighten the hub nut.
Replace the side bolt with the proper bolt.

The usual disclaimers apply - see signature.

Reply #7June 22, 2016, 11:24:22 pm

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2016, 11:24:22 pm »
In the waldon article he refers to the pump locking pin, etc. This is a rover 300 pump and the pulley has been off it for some time now, and so there is no way to insert a pump locking pin as that reference to factory tdc on the pump disappeared some time ago.
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #8June 22, 2016, 11:28:49 pm

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2016, 11:28:49 pm »

Remove the side bolt and get a longer one so you can lock the shaft position. 
With some pre-load on the indicator, rotate the shaft CCW. 
If the indicator reading immediately moves when you begin rotating the shaft, keep rotating CCW until it stops and zero the gauge.
If the indicator reading did not change when you began rotating CCW then zero the gauge.
Rotate CW until you get to the desired indicator reading. 
Lock the shaft with the side bolt.
Place the hub on the shaft with the lock pin in place.
Tighten the hub nut.
Replace the side bolt with the proper bolt.
What is the "side bolt" you refer to? Picture please?
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #9June 23, 2016, 01:30:37 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 01:30:37 am »

Reply #10June 23, 2016, 08:00:01 am

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2016, 08:00:01 am »
rover 300 pump has no bolt like that anywhere on the pump body. I looked, and looked, and looked again. Not there.   :(
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #11June 23, 2016, 08:20:37 am

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2016, 08:20:37 am »
so i can use non-adjustable keyed pump sprocket ((see pic)) off of (?) to turn the keyed rover pump shaft with my home-made sprocket tool. and achieve the same results. turn the pump cw or ccw to 'zero' on the #1 fueling cycle, then advance the pump cw to 1.45mm and swap on the two-piece, adjustable hub/sprocket from an ALH ((see pic)) , install the timing belt and re-check the pump timing and adjust the pump as needed to be at 1.45mm lift at tdc as indicated by the flywheel timing mark.
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

Reply #12June 23, 2016, 10:32:39 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2016, 10:32:39 am »
rover 300 pump has no bolt like that anywhere on the pump body. I looked, and looked, and looked again. Not there.   :(

The pump I pictured IS an LR 300 TDI pump.  Each of the ones I have used have had the bolt.

Yup, that has the bolt.
This one does too.
You have to look through the pics, but yup it has the bolt.

You're looking between the pump and the engine block, right?  If yours doesn't have the bolt, I would question whether or not it is actually an LR 200/300 pump.

Please post a pic of the engine block side of your pump. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 10:48:08 am by libbydiesel »

Reply #13June 23, 2016, 10:57:44 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2016, 10:57:44 am »
In looking at your pics, it sure looks like an LR pump in every way I can see.  You still have the LR bracket by the delivery valves.  You need to swap/modify that so you have the 4th mounting bolt.  Anyway, it should be easy for you to pull the other mounting bolts, flip the pump over and snap a pic of the engine side to post up.

Reply #14June 23, 2016, 03:24:32 pm

mammonista

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Re: Hubs, pulleys, and pumps, OH MY!
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2016, 03:24:32 pm »
okay, you're right...i'm a dumb ass! (I haven't claimed to have much on the ball for the last 30 years or so!) Don't know why I couldn't spot that bolt when I was looking right at it when the pump was on the engine. But as soon as I pulled the pump it magically appeared.
If it doesn't fit force it. If it breaks it needed replacing anyway!

 

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