Author Topic: How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?  (Read 12860 times)

April 09, 2006, 06:43:53 pm

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« on: April 09, 2006, 06:43:53 pm »
Okay, so reading about theres plenty of mods to do, some I have already done.
This is all well and good in a small car but when a small displacement engine is fitted to something a bit bigger, like a T3 (Vanagon) then is tuning the engine going to put any un needed stress on whats already a overworked engine?
For some reason VW lowered the output of the 1.6TD fitted to the T3 to 70hp from 80hp as found in the Golf. Vw being VW there must be a good reason behind this, or maybe it was a taxation thing? Or maybe they thought that the engine would be under less stress and last longer with a slightly lower output.
As it is these engines seem to last about 100K before needing a new head, but you hear stories of the same engine in lighter cars doing much more! My own Caddy is up to 263K although saying that I've just cursed it!

I have already fitted the MKI Golf GTI oil cooler and sat the cooler under the middle of the van, I also have a Passat 1.9 TDI intercooler sat behind the left hand rear light and air is ducted from the air vent in the pillar over the cooler and out downwards.
I have the GTD injectors to go in and there is a K&N fitted in the  original air box im just concerned as to how far to go with the boost pressure and fuelling without killing the engine pulling nigh on 2 tonnes around!
The VW T3 TD has a bigger radiator fan than the normal petrol and Diesel T3's, the the cab floor is a different shape to accomodate the bigger fan so I don't think that that will be a problem, specially with the oil cooler too. As you probably know the GTI oil cooler uses a type 1 style oil cooler, but the type 4 cooler is the same design but much larger in capacity so I have one of these to fit.

Any words of wisdom?



.
'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #1April 09, 2006, 07:21:24 pm

745 turbogreasel

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 07:21:24 pm »
When your EGT gets too high, back off or replace the engine?  I think it realy is that simple.  With the 5:31 van axle, it may not be working much harder than it would be in a car.

Reply #2April 09, 2006, 07:36:42 pm

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2006, 07:36:42 pm »
Final drive is 4,57. It's a 2.1 caravelle 5 speed manual with LSD

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'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #3April 10, 2006, 05:51:14 pm

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2006, 05:51:14 pm »
Not having used a EGT gauge before, what temperatures should be be expecting?
I've found a sensibly prices gauge and thermocouple in the UK very similar to the VDO gauges that I already have but the suppliers are on their holidays at the moment so Im awaiting their return.

.
'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #4April 10, 2006, 06:37:14 pm

jtanguay

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2006, 06:37:14 pm »
If I were you, I would definitely install gauges of all types, to monitor oil temp oil pres boost, and egt.

Try to keep the motor in low gears when going uphill and don't floor it when going up and it should last a long time.  Just remember that peak torque drops off around 3000 rpm, and max hp is around 4500-5000.   Take your time to accel, but on a flat road you could really push the engine without worries.  Listen to how the engine speaks (it will grumble and shake if it doesn't like the workload) and downshift accordingly.   Keep an eye on gauges and if she doesnt move when you depress the pedal, then ease off of it. Only problem with the higher rpm's (but not too high) is fuel consumption.  Use synthetic as added protection too.

The lower compression ratio might be a good idea as well.  There is no reason the engine shouldn't survive 400'000k+ if you don't beat it.  for egt its max 1600F... in your setup I would try to keep it lower than 1200 for maximum longetivity.

thats my 2 cents


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Reply #5April 10, 2006, 06:52:27 pm

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2006, 06:52:27 pm »
All the other gauges are in there, s'only the EGT im short.
These look sensibly priced..

http://airworlduk.com/falcon4.html

Whats the crack with the thermocouple? can it be extended? The wires I mean, it's going in a T3 so it's a long way from the engine to the driver!

.
'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #6April 11, 2006, 12:14:26 am

Otis2

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2006, 12:14:26 am »
Andrew & Mr. B - I'm curious what oil temps you experience with your 1.6 TD installs.  I take it you're both running K24 turbos?

With my AAZ running the factory-original AAZ exhaust manifold & K03 turbo, my oil temp would always be at least 220 F at 70 mph, and it would easily hit 240 F with hills & headwinds.  

Replacement of the oil cooler with a larger Passat PD oil cooler did very little.  But replacement of the stock AAZ exhaust manifold and K03 turbo with a 1.6 TD exhaust manifold and T3 turbo has done a LOT for the oil temp.  I can't seem to break 200 F oil temperature now, no matter how hard I flog it.  I will have to wait for summer temperatures to really test it, though.

How much boost are you two running on these 1.6 TD installs?  Andrew, since you seem to have the gauges, when you hit 1250 F for EGT, what boost pressure and oil temperature would you be seeing at that point?

Reply #7April 11, 2006, 05:42:40 pm

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2006, 05:42:40 pm »
Can't comment either yet, I had a mechanical TDI in there last, that thing never warmed up! I drove 500 miles through France at full chat and the oil temp managed once to get to 50degrees C!!
I've just redone the wiring in my engine bay tonight, using the stock GTI oilcooler and sender, also done away with the buzer of doom and converted back to a standard on off no buzz oil warning system
Hopefully, going for MOT (Ministry Of Transport) test on good Friday, new brakes all round, new poly bushes, new AVO suspension the thing should go straight through, hopefully!
Then I have to tax it then do a shake down as it's not seen the road in 12 months, infact it still has a full tank of fuel from the same bus show I am trying to get it back on the road for!
13 hour days rock!  :cry:
As for the M-tdi, it's sat in the yard getting rained on! Going to remove the pump soon, and turbo and bin the rest, no time!

.
'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #8April 11, 2006, 07:10:59 pm

Otis2

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2006, 07:10:59 pm »
Wow, oil temp of 50 C is only about 125 F.  You'd never boil the condensation out of your oil.  That's too much of a good thing!

My Westy has worse aerodynamics and heavier curb weight than your van, but even still...

Can't understand why you would be getting such low oil temps.  As Andrew suggested, high oil temps are usually the bane of a TD vanagon conversion.  Oil temps always worried me a lot sooner than my EGT worried me, even when I was running the small K03 turbo.  If my VDO gauge can be trusted, then I'm not getting more than 1100 F (pre-turbo probe) regardless of abuse, so EGTs are pretty safe.

Is the extreme low oil temperature the reason why you're now binning the m-TDI?  Maybe it's a symptom of the injection pump underfuelling the engine, in that it never heats up properly?  So, maybe your pump choice for the m-TDI was not ideal?  We've all read that the AAZ pump "sort of" works with a VW TDI, but underfuels it.  Maybe your Ford or Fiat Chroma pump falls into the same category.

Otherwise, it seems like a big step backwards for you to swap your m-TDI for a (relatively) stock 1.6 TD.

Best of luck for the MOT.

Also, please let us know what turbo you're running on the 1.6 TD (and the old m-TDI for curiosity's sake, too).

Reply #9April 13, 2006, 07:00:11 pm

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2006, 07:00:11 pm »
Turbo is the stock KKK on both,
M-TDI, a lot was ignorance on my part, for which I would love to do it all again but differently as now I know more and I think I could get it to work well.
I would bin the JX LDA and fit a upright one!
Mount the intercooler proplerly.

Im going to remove the pump and 110hp injectors and keep them for a rainy day, I think me trying to get it to perform as it should and messing with the boost pressure is what finally killed it, think I went too far.

It was great when it ran, quiet, quick to sart and economical but to sort it out would have been hassle, I just wanted to sell the van at the time and thought no one would buy it with a half arsed TDI in there, reverting back to a IDI 1.6TD seemed the better choice to sell the van.
As things have panned out looks like I will be keeping it as it looks ace! and I lived in the thing for 6 months in a car park in Chamonix France and did a winter snowboarding season out of it with my girlfriend I don't think I could part with it! Too many good memories.

Trouble is with the T3 they are very low geared and with the TDI producing it's power at lower revs the van was crippled on the Motorway. Without spending massive amounts on a new crown wheel and pinion to get it to work anywhere near where it should it was always going to be a bind to drive. Quick off the mark, *** on the move.

This way, with the 1.6TD it fits straight in and works as it should. A few tweeks here and there to liven it up should make the difference. as a IDI it would sit quite happily at 80 mph on the motorway, with the TDI 80 was a push.
There was also the hybrid clutch, stock clutch is 215mm, this ain't man enough for a TDI so I ran a hybrid clutch, Audi flywheel, LT friction disc and a cover plate from something else, can't remember.. Because coverplate was larger I had to remove the timing marks for it to fit the bell housing, which, er, left me without proper timing marks! bit of a git to set the timing.
Everything was a comprimise, I didn't want to spend a fortune on parts for it not to work so it was thrown together.
Brilliant learning experience, loved it, learnt alot about Diesels, I will look more into it when I have time but with my garage only being 1 year old and with a baby on the way spare time for playing isn't really on the cards at the moment, just want something that works, as it should.
 :)

.
'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #10April 14, 2006, 12:35:55 pm

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2006, 12:35:55 pm »
MOT Passed!
Yey. well he did have no choice as I do that much business with him he could hardly fail it!
Emmisions test was a bit scarey as the engine had been run around the yard after being built and there we were revving the nads off it for the smoke test! Heh, it survived although the first rev was a bit smokey but what do you expect for an engine built from bits and pieces laying around the garage!
it's settled down now, bit slow but it is in standard form, 70hp and 2 tonnes is never going to be quick!
Gave the fuel screw a bit of a tweek to make it a bit more driveable and it's now sat outside the hous with smoking brakes! still not bedded in yet...

I think there maybe some confusion over the oil cooler, in Europe our MKI (A1) GTi's had a remote oil cooler, this is what I have fitted to my engine.
The filter head has a thermostat and is drilled and tapped for 2 oil lines that go to a remote cooler mounted next to the radiator. The cooler they useis a Type 1 item on a special bracket.
The oil pressure switch is removed and a M10x10 (Old sender hole) to M18 adapter is used to supply the turbo with oil.
There is a drilling for an oil temp sender.
This is why I disabled the buzzer of doom and now I just run with the VDO sender in the back of the head.

.
'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #11April 14, 2006, 03:09:20 pm

carrizog60

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2006, 03:09:20 pm »
why are those gauges on the link so cheap?
haven´t put one yet because they were expensive but those are 23 for the gauge and 15 for the thermocouples?

what is needed to put it to work?only those 2 things? :?:
vw golf gti G60--vw passat 1.9td gt2052v
yamaha vmax 1200- yamaha tdm 850
Portugal

Reply #12April 15, 2006, 05:37:16 am

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2006, 05:37:16 am »
I presume so!
Prices are in pounds remember! And there is VAT (Value Added Tax) at 17.5% too.
Whats £22? about €35?

.
'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #13April 15, 2006, 09:44:14 am

Baxter

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2006, 09:44:14 am »
Initial road test is promising!
I taxed the thing this morning and set off on a shake down.
At the moment we are stock with intercooler...

http://www.aumb39.dsl.pipex.com/uploads/intercooler01.jpg

http://www.aumb39.dsl.pipex.com/uploads/intercooler02.jpg

....and oil cooler.

Normally, T3's run with the water temp gauge needle bang in the middle of the scale, just over the LED already the needle is now just at the bottom of the LED so it's cooler than stock.

After a long climb up a locl hill I stopped at the top to just have a check around for leaks etc, intercooler was hot! like, hot! oil cooler was warm. Im really quite surprised at how much heat was coming off the intercooler, made me wonder how hot the air actually is and how the standard non intercooler ones go on!

As I have been running around like a pillock trying to get the thing on the road the only gause wired up is the boost gauge, which is running at .5bar max.

As for the shake down, it seemed okay, I thought the only way to get the van to play up is to get the van somewhere really bad, like the town centre on a saturday afternoon, so guess where the throttle linkage decided to part compant with the pedal!? yep, right slap bang in the town centre outside McDonalds with all the homeys in their Cracksuits looking on with the feds (Police) behind me at the lights! great!
Heh, belt off, door open and a quick fiddle with the pedal got it clipped back on and off we went!

Also, gave the max fuel screw a bit of a twiddle yesterday as it was a bit flat, idle speed went up to about 1200rpm, adjusted back down with the idle screw, no probs, however when the van has warmed up it is reluctant to return to idle, sometimes deciding to rev at about 2500rpm, if you put it in gear and let the clucth out to get the revs to drop they stay where they should, so I need to have another tinker methinks.

Im going to wire the gauge up next, then install the GTD injectors and fit the bleed valve next week one night after work.

Also, im awaiting a motorbike cooling fan to sit above the intercooler and pull air over it, and obviously a bit of a stone guard for the intercooler as it is in a bit of a vulnerable place right behind the wheel.

.
'90 VW T3 Westfalia Atlantic 1.9TD [AAZ, Hybrid turbo, Water/Air charge cooler, TDI clutch, Limited slip diff]
'99 VW Passat (3B) Variant TDI sport.
'03 VW T4 Special X 2.5TDI Comb0

Reply #14April 15, 2006, 11:34:24 pm

jtanguay

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How far to push a 1.6TD in a van?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2006, 11:34:24 pm »
Hmmm auxiliary fan for your intercooler... good idea!  I'm surprised to hear that your oil temp is 'warm' after an uphill climb.   What speed were you going? What were the rpm's/gear?  Was the turbo producing your max boost all the way up?


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