1.9 TD pump/injector differences...

[BoostedOne]

So a couple of questions:

1) Is there a big difference between na 1.6 injectors and AAZ injectors aside from the pop pressure?   Can the 1.6 injectors just be reshimmed to the proper pop or are AAZ injectors needed?

Pump stuff:
Long story short, in an effort to get a turbo on my 1.9, I bought what was advertised as a AAZ pump.. I found it to be a 1.6TD pump, 0 480 494 082...  I asked here if it would fuel a 1.9 and got one response saying yes,  if you change the cam plate to a AAZ cam plate. 

Well in an effort to make things easier, I figured I would just buy another AAZ pump while shopping Ebay.de for other things and just sell the 1.6 pump.  So I bought another.   This one is 0 460 494 277.

This IS an AAZ pump. But apparantly some German versions of the AAZ do not have LDA!!!  The angles the photos were taken on the auction hid the fact that what looked like an lda was not an lda.  See pics below...  you remove the cover for the lda and it's empty inside.

So..

2)anyone have knowledge of this particular pump?  Does it have potential? I like that it has the longer discharge nozzles so I do not have to distress the fuel lines anymore.  But internally is it much if any different than the LDA version?  I hate to cannibalize the 1.6 pump for the LDA but at this point if I have to, so be it..

My goal is somewhere in the 115ish or so hp using a nice front mount intercooler, PD intake, and somewhat on the fence turbo wise.  I have a Callaway 8v turbo manifold redrilled to the t3 pattern and a T3 60 turbo laying around I could easily use, but that's probably a bit big. Also have a k03 from an early 1.8T.







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[RunninWild]

its an eco diesel pump. you can swap the lda from the 1.6 pump if you want.

[TylerDurden]

IIRC, eco pumps are 8mm plunger... xxx 494 xxx is a 9mm pump.

[RabbitJockey]

that is an aaz eco pump tho, i'd check the part number to see if it is 8mm or 9mm

[BoostedOne]

Yeah its a 494 as mentioned so I assume that means it's a 9mm pump.. 

I guess I was curious if I do swap the lda over, is there any other differences internally that make it less desirable than a non eco pump?  I can't seem to find a parts listing..

And what about the injector difference between the aaz and 1.6 na?  I don't have the aaz injectors and my 1.6 injectors are in great shape.. if there is a performance difference I can get different injectors but trying to determine if I should just have them re-popped to the correct pressure?

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[vanbcguy]

The AAZ injectors are 'two stage' - they have a small pilot injection before the main injection event, this makes them a bit quieter.  They're hard to find however.  The 1.6 injectors are single stage - they just let all the fuel go at once.  They're pretty easy to find.  There's no real power hiding in the injectors (the IDI injectors are much larger than say a TDI injector; they are capable of flowing more fuel than you could ever hope to burn).  From a power perspective any of them will work fine.  However the AAZ injector bodies are taller, so your injector lines aren't going to fit properly unless you have the correct length bodies.  Bending is of course an option, but make sure you have a spare set in case they crack!

The entire top can be taken off the 1.6 pump and put on the 1.9 pump - that's probably what I'd do.  There is a pin inside the 1.9 pump that will have to be removed (part of the governor lever rests against that pin rather than the LDA arm), there's a posting or two in the forum here. 

Performance-wise, the pump base has the camplate, the advance springs and the plunger.  The 1.6 probably has a more aggressive advance curve as NOx emission limits were higher in its day, you might want to swap over the advance springs.  The plunger in the 1.9 pump is already a 9mm so you're good there.  The AAZ camplate was the "best" one available, though this is probably a 1Y (AAZ without a turbo)... Would be worth measuring the total lift with a dial gauge.  If it's around 3mm then it's a good camplate.

[wolf_walker]

Isn't the cam plate profiled differently for the two stage injectors? 

[BoostedOne]

THanks a ton!  Super big help.

I did distract myself away from work a little today and did some more googling.  I was having not much luck searching my pumps part number, but searching for aaz and eco turned up more results.  I did see references to the dual stage injectors in the AAZ as well as the height difference.  I am guessing the ECO injectors are the same size?

Thats one thing I have been fighting all along with this thing, is injector lines.  Currently the engine is a basket case.  The 1.9 was bought as a long block, no injectors.  I had my NA 1.6 pump and injectors rebuilt just before buying the engine, and for now just put them on, running the 1.9 NA.  I had to bend my 1.6 lines, and after a while they cracked and started leaking.  Tracked down a set of 1.9 lines, and thought I would be fine but they didnt fit well either.  Thats when I learned about the difference in the discharge valves   I got the lines with that ECO pump, so I may just track down a set of injectors.

I cant wait to get home from work today, I will check the plunger lift.  Hopefully its about 3mm as you say.  Thinks for the info about the advance springs.

Since the cold start lever setup on this 1.9 pump is totally different than my 1.6TD pump, I assume I would transfer over the cold start mechanism as well, since the 1.9 one has an arm that goes up to my LDA-less housing?  Any idea what is up in the cover housing for the cold start lever?

[RunninWild]

I'm not 100% sure but I believe the lower gear adjusts the timing and the upper gear adjusts the idle speed.

[vanbcguy]

The camplate profile is definitely different on the AAZ but the same cam plate gets used in performance 1.6 pumps so it'll work fine.

Hadn't thought about the different idle setups. You'll have to transfer the governor springs and throttle linkage over that go with the pump lid - the pumps with the rod on the side to the cold start have a different idle control setup with a separate idle spring and don't have an idle spring on their actual governor linkage. That's actually a downgrade, the later style is better as it bumps the idle speed up for cold starts.

You should be able to leave the cold start itself as is and just remove the rod.

[BoostedOne]

I will say if i have to go back to the early cold start stuff, I am fine with that.  I live in central Florida where worst case it's about 30 degrees F when I go out to it at 530 am to start it.  It never fails to fire off in the first few cranks.  If I use the cold start cable it's just to make it run a bit smoother.  My concern was some internal difference that would keep it from working at all if I transferred all the early stuff to the late pump.

So..   how close to 3mm of stroke should the "good" cam plate provide?   



I checked several times and got 2.55mm.  The 1.6TD pump was at about 2.1 or 2.2mm.. 

I did order some AAZ 2 stage injectors.  So I will go that route.  Tired of replacing injector lines and smelling diesel fuel 10-15k miles later..  which is pretty often as much as I drive this...

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[TylerDurden]

FWIW, my USA eco camplate is 2.55mm. Plunger is 8mm.

Maybe u got a frankenpump.

[BoostedOne]

I suppose anything is possible.  I haven't yet been able to find a list of cam plates and their lifts.  I have the numbers written down at work, I think the cam plate I have ends in 377. 

I did find where the aaz plate is 3.1mm.    I even seen where there's ones that go to 3.5, you can do 10mm heads from the ALH, etc.  It's enough to give me a headache.

Haven't found where to buy an AAZ cam plate but do have the part number. 

I am trying to balance what is needed and what's the best route to go in order to be at 120 to 140hp.  I mean, would the smaller cam plate combined with a 10mm head actually be better than an aggressive cam on the 9mm head? Or is the 9mm head and 2.5mm cam just fine as is?

I dunno.  And is timing one of those 10mm pumps complicated..  I only go so far in a day haha..





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[theman53]

for those goals any vw camplate could achieve them.

[BoostedOne]

Thanks!
Please help me understand the advantage of the more aggressive cam then?

I mean,  if 2.1 on a 9mm head will get to 140hp, why did VW fit the 75hp aaz with a 3.1? 

And any clue as to where I would set my pump timing on this thing if I stayed with the 2.55mm plate?   Would it be the same as the aaz if I am using the long delivery valves and 2 stage injectors?

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