Fixmyvw.com

Author Topic: Booster full of brake fluid  (Read 7848 times)

Reply #30July 24, 2014, 04:41:46 pm

mtrans

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 308
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2014, 04:41:46 pm »
bar to psi is OK,but lb to bar/psi no no.
1.37 bar for pressure isn`t much,but for vacum is this mean that is lot?
I`ll improve my English

Reply #31July 27, 2014, 01:13:05 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2014, 01:13:05 pm »
Seems like I remember reading or hearing somewhere that for vacuum you should be pulling somewhere in the range of 25 to 30 inches. A few times in the past when my vacuum pump is fresh off a rebuild I've put the gauge on it and usually get around 28 in/hg.

As for my original situation on this post, here's where I'm at...... My biggest concern on this whole deal is what all that brake fluid will do to my floor pan, as in will it corrode the floor pan to nothing-ness eventually. My floor pans are in pretty good shape for a 79, and I'd like to keep them that way. I know brake fluid will strip off paint in a hurry, but beyond that I can't say I really know a whole lot about the stuff. I'd have to say that what I know about brake fluid has been picked up from talking with other shade tree mechanics and parts guys over the years, and I've always had the impression it's pretty bad stuff towards metal. However that sort of information can be all over the place, and probably not have much in the way of concrete data. One of the guys up at the local parts store even told me you should clean brake fluid off of metal with acid! I've been trying to read up on it but information is kinda sketchy. I did find a material safety data sheet which had the word 'oxidizer' in it, which from what I know about MSDS's (which isn't much really) can mean corrosive. As far as I know the floor pans are made of just plain steel, but then I think, so to, are the brake lines. Whether or not brake lines have some material alloyed in with them to resist any corrosive properties of brake fluid I can't say, but they look like just plain steel to me. One thing I did read about that seems to be a consensus is that brake fluid attracts water (as a previous poster has already said), which as we all know is corrosive to steel. I suspect that inside the sealed brake system that's not too much of a worry but once it's out in the open air then it becomes a problem, as it absorbs moisture right out of the air.
 
So..... Armed with what knowledge I could find on brake fluid corrosiveness, here's what I've done so far. First of all there's a thick coating that covers most of the floor pan. It looks like that rubberized undercoating stuff they spray on the bottoms of cars and use for bed liners for trucks and such. It's laid on pretty thick, about a 1/4 of an inch or so. I think luckily most of the brake fluid drained onto it. After sopping up as much brake fluid as I could with paper towels I hosed the crap out of the floor pan with Purple Power and hit it with a scrub brush. The paint was all gone around the edges of the coating, but there wasn't much rust to speak of. I had some heavier rust up by the accelerator and clutch pedals, and some lighter rust back by the cross member that runs under the seat. The lighter stuff I hit with some naval jelly and the heavier stuff with a wire brush on a drill. Got it all down to bare metal and put on a coat of primer and 2 coats of paint..... Hopefully it will last. The carpet wasn't too bad. It just had a couple little spots where fluid had soaked in, so I took it up to the car wash and gave it a good hosing down, and it came out fine. The padding was completely soaked with brake fluid..... It now resides at the Harney County dump. Got some new padding from the local carpet store and I might also put in some sort of insulation under the padding when it all goes back in.

As for the brake lines I can't say that I think much of VWs idea of running them inside the passenger cabin, for the very reason of the problem I'm having now, although I suppose they had their reasons. I suspect maybe they didn't want them to get torn up by road debris if they'd run them underneath, although the fuel lines run underneath the car and I can't say I've ever had a problem with them. The line for the right rear brake is especially retarded. It runs from the master cylinder across the firewall to the right side, into the passenger cabin and down the right side of it, then exits the passenger cabin underneath the back seat and runs back across the car to the proportioning valve which is just in front of the left wheel well, and then back across to the right rear wheel. I also imagine they didn't think this old girl would still be on the road 35 years after leaving the factory, so they probably didn't think this problem would ever come up. After some research I've found some kits that enable you to make your own brake lines. They're a bit on the spendy side after you add in the flaring tools and everything, but hey I'm never opposed to the idea of adding new tools to the shop. My current plan is to take out the factory installed brake lines for both rear wheels and then make new ones that will run down the drivers side just like the fuel lines run on the passenger side. If nothing else running them outside the passenger cabin will keep me from having to deal with this mess again. Yay!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 02:46:13 pm by Rabbit79 »
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #32July 27, 2014, 02:30:29 pm

ORCoaster

  • Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 4392
  • Personal Text
    Restoring a Caddy as time and weather allows
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2014, 02:30:29 pm »
Rabbit79, You worry too much.

35 yrs and the lines got a leak, and some fluid came into the interior.  I would have wiped it up, probably wouldn't have done anything else.  How much of that floor board has some rust on it?  If I was really into show cars and would have been pulling the seats out and the carpet out to show how the original paint is still intact I might have wiped the oil off with paint thinner, cleaned that with soap and water and painted it over once it dried.

Water is attracted to brake fluid.  But enough to cause one to worry about rust?  How many of us paint the MC and that is sitting out in the elements with fluid on it all the time.

Brake lines in the car?  How silly?  Just leave it alone.  It is fine.  Lines outside are higher risk in my mind.  Rebuild them?  Needless expense, even if you do add to the tool box.  You are not going to need them again for 35 yrs.  But you could loan them out in that time. 

I like to tinker with these cars with the best of them but frankly, I think you are in overkill mode here. 
DAS

Reply #33July 27, 2014, 05:15:38 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2014, 05:15:38 pm »
Well ORCoaster I'll be the first to admit that I get pretty obsessive/compulsive when it comes to working on the old Rabbit. Not because it's any kind of show car or anything like that. In fact it's very, very far from anything like that. I can tell you that stems from the fact that I absolutely HATE to have to tear back into something a few months or years down the road because I didn't fix it right the first time (kinda ruins the whole deal when you're mad at yourself the whole time you're working on something  >:( ). To be honest I've had advice in all different directions on this thing. From "you better get that stuff out of there or it'll eat away your floor pan" to "ahh you got nothing to worry about".  What I absolutely, positively DO NOT want to do is have to go in there 3 years from now and weld in a new floor pan, so I'm trying to err on the side of caution. And really cleaning up the floor pan wasn't that big a deal. I think I spent maybe 5 bucks on a can of paint and about 7 on some new carpet padding, and the rest of it was just elbow grease.  As for the brake line stuff I have to get that anyway since I have to build a new one to replace the one with a hole in it  Finding any kind of OEM replacement didn't pan out and nobody here in town makes them so I'm on my own in that regard. At present I plan to keep this car going until I'm dead, or they take my drivers license away, whichever comes first hehe. So it's entirely possible this problem could come up again.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 11:12:33 pm by Rabbit79 »
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #34July 28, 2014, 12:06:01 am

ORCoaster

  • Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 4392
  • Personal Text
    Restoring a Caddy as time and weather allows
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2014, 12:06:01 am »
You got it under control then.  I just replaced the MC on mine thanks to the fine warranty on the one I put in 10 mths ago.  So sometimes you are back doing it all over again just because it failed for a different reason.  I am hoping that this does not become an every 10 mth repair job.  Oh, I shouldn't wish for that?  It could become an every 30 day one. 

I got brakes again and even was able to get the wife to help with the tinkering.  Made the brake bleed go so much faster. 

Good luck with the bender kit. 

Reply #35February 23, 2024, 02:23:46 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2024, 02:23:46 pm »
So I know this is quite an old post, but it did end up being quite a saga that dragged on for a long time (mostly due to my own laziness I should interject at this point) and I thought I would show some resolution. I got the brake line situation fixed in a rather surprising fashion. I happened to be chatting with the head mechanic at, of all places, the local Ford dealership (he is a friend of mine), and the subject of my brake line came up, and he said we've got some brake line with metric ends, maybe we can make it work. So I took my old brake line to him and we measured it and it turned out be the exact same length, diameter, and have the same fittings on the ends as my VW line did. Perfect match. He loaned me his bending tools and I got that replaced quite easily. I never thought it would turn out that easy.
The booster side of the story turned out a little different. After I got everything put back together things were fine for a while and then all of sudden my vacuum pump started eating diaphragms. I never really did figure out what was causing this and if it was related in any way to the booster, but after a few years of rebuilding pumps every 3 months I got tired of that and put one of the new vane style pumps in. After this things switched to where I was getting vacuum assist only intermittently and then after a while to no vacuum assist at all. Being my somewhat lazy self I decided to just deal with it and went for like 5 years without any assist on the brakes. Here this past summer I finally decided to fix it and after checking around discovered that you can't get a new booster for a pre-80 Rabbit. Apparently they changed the way it hooks to the brake pedal in 1980 and post 80 boosters (which you can still get new by the way) won't work on a 79 or earlier version. I probably could have fabricated something if I'd had to but what I ended up doing was sending it in to Parts Place and they sent it to their rebuilder. Cost was about 275 dollars. Now.... Did getting all that brake fluid in there cause the booster to fail? I can't say on that because I had no contact with the rebuilder, so I don't know what they found when they went in there. I also have to take into account that it was 40 years old by the time it failed, so it could have been just natural wear and tear, but it did happen just not very long after it got filled full of brake fluid. It's unfortunate that I don't have a concrete conclusion on that but that's how it goes sometimes.  Anyway, it's been in and working fine for about 6 months now (yes I did actually wait for awhile to make sure everything held up before posting).
Saga complete.
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #36February 23, 2024, 09:42:05 pm

ORCoaster

  • Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 4392
  • Personal Text
    Restoring a Caddy as time and weather allows
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2024, 09:42:05 pm »
I am reading this and the old posts thinking.  While I was out tooling about the town I noticed a lack of brakes and the MC doesn't seem to hold when I push down and hold the pedal.  It slowly sinks to the floor.  So, maybe a bad seal in the MC. 

Odd that my brakes act up as you update us that yours are finally fine.  There must be some yin-yang thing going out there that some number of VWs must have bad brakes all the time to keep the planets in line or something. 

Reply #37March 01, 2024, 10:36:14 am

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2024, 10:36:14 am »
After I exorcised the brake demons from mine they were floating around searching for their next victim and apparently you were the closest. hehe
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #38March 02, 2024, 06:11:17 pm

ORCoaster

  • Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 4392
  • Personal Text
    Restoring a Caddy as time and weather allows
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2024, 06:11:17 pm »
Yesterday I got to tearing into an MC and proportional valve I found on Craigslist.  MC looked pretty good and once I cleaned up the little bit of rust inside the bore I was able to bench bleed it and have it hold pressure with all ports sealed off.

The proportional valve was a different story.  If you have ever had the chance to pull one apart the bottom tow caps are under heavy spring pressure and will shoot off at you if you are not prepared for that.  I back them out a bit with the wrench then throw a rag over the end and slowly remove them all the while pushing down on the cap.  I did this with the first one and sure enough right at the end it kind of sprang at me.

The other side was not pushing at me at all.  Odd I thought and once I got it out of the valve body I saw that the spring was rusted up tight and I was just waiting for it to shoot the red valve stem across the room.  I was able to pop it apart and clean it up without damage to man or valve.  But that was the tightest I have ever seen a spring all rusted up like that. 

Today I went out in the sleet and rain and checked on the booster before I tore off the old MC.  I couldn't get it to hold a vacuum at all.  I was only using a small volume hand pump and the weather got so bad I had to quit, or rather decided enough of this.  I might try the old vacuum cleaner I use for the floors in the truck and see if I can get enough volume out and have it hold with that.  The weather is not supposed to be much better for a few days so maybe next weekend. 

Reply #39March 08, 2024, 09:29:21 pm

ORCoaster

  • Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 4392
  • Personal Text
    Restoring a Caddy as time and weather allows
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2024, 09:29:21 pm »
Today was a beautiful sunshiny day to work on the brakes again. 

Yesterday I got off work an hour early so I used that daylight to pull the MC and booster off the truck.  I found that the front seal on the booster was allowing air to sneak in next to the shaft that engages the MC.  So I found a way to seal it up without buying a new front seal.  I am not sure you can even do that.

I applied a vacuum on the booster and it held for a long time and was released when I pushed on the pedal shaft.  OK got that part fixed and I had already gone through a second MC I bought off a guy on CL.  So today I slapped it all back together and tested it out. 

HMM mushy brakes, but I had yet to bleed them so I did that and I have a low pedal but not bad brakes.  When I had the booster apart I tried to turn that little nut on the end and it just would not budge.  So rather than break it off I am just going to live with brakes that are a bit lower to the floor than I would like them to be.  Other than that they will send you rocking forward if you hit them with much force.

So, now to do something else with it.  We are in for another 5 days of rain so I will have plenty of time to think about what I want to do next.

Reply #40March 15, 2024, 03:02:48 pm

Rabbit79

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 196
  • Personal Text
    Burns, Oregon,USA
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2024, 03:02:48 pm »
Quote
So, now to do something else with it.  We are in for another 5 days of rain so I will have plenty of time to think about what I want to do next.

Don't worry.... you know something will come up.
Current: 1979 Rabbit 4dr
            1984 F-250
            1999 Ford Ranger
Other v-dubs I've owned:
84 Rabbit
78 Rabbit (gasoline) flipped it end over end after driving all night and falling asleep at the wheel. RIP, it was a good little car.
70 Bug

Reply #41March 15, 2024, 10:27:38 pm

ORCoaster

  • Moderator
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 4392
  • Personal Text
    Restoring a Caddy as time and weather allows
Re: Booster full of brake fluid
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2024, 10:27:38 pm »
Today I ran down to Bandon in my new Maverick.  That hybrid is embarassing the VW with its stellar MPG.  The creature comforts have it put to shame anyway. 

Time to start doing yardwork, the sun will be out ALL WEEKEND.  I may need to find some sunscreen and some shorts.

 

Fixmyvw.com