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Author Topic: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread  (Read 77574 times)

Reply #60February 17, 2014, 08:10:32 am

theman53

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2014, 08:10:32 am »
Oh, no I did read the thread. I asked him whether he had ever done any real world data gathering to substantiate his 12* +/- .5* for all kraut diesels and he went off waxing about theory. In almost every case where someone states categorically that such & such is the case and presents unreasonably exact data there is a reason. Whether it is wishful thinking, or self deception, or fabrication, one can never be sure. In the real world the best empirical data has an error/noise rate of more than the 1/730 that he is claiming. (.138%)

It is not believable that every diesel motor would run best when set at the same timing at idle. A motor with an IP with a faster advance curve will almost always run better if the timing at idle is retarded a bit from what most VW diesels come with. Conversely if the IP advance curve is slower, that motor will run way better with the timing at idle is more advanced, since that way the timing will be closer to optimum in the RPM range where most of the driving is done.

LD claims that is not the case.

He stated several times that this is provided "an advance section that is functioning properly"....even so, if it wasn't no timing method would be ideal I wouldn't think.

Reply #61February 17, 2014, 06:32:05 pm

dieseljunkie69

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2014, 06:32:05 pm »
Timing for performance is what works best on every single diesel or gasoline in real world time. Time it for what works best in your world. Is 12* best? I doubt it, none of the diesels I've ever timed were anywhere near the same. They all sound different, they all start differently, they all perform the same though. Butt-dyno at my 1000 foot elevation on all of them is the best real world for timing.

He stated several times that this is provided "an advance section that is functioning properly"....even so, if it wasn't no timing method would be ideal I wouldn't think.

Yeah, but the amount of different advance systems out there.. I have seen personally like 7 different timing piston springs, across four completely different timing pistons. Would this then not mean that all those engines need a different static timing value to start from? 
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Reply #62February 17, 2014, 06:42:34 pm

theman53

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2014, 06:42:34 pm »
Timing for performance is what works best on every single diesel or gasoline in real world time. Time it for what works best in your world. Is 12* best? I doubt it, none of the diesels I've ever timed were anywhere near the same. They all sound different, they all start differently, they all perform the same though. Butt-dyno at my 1000 foot elevation on all of them is the best real world for timing.

He stated several times that this is provided "an advance section that is functioning properly"....even so, if it wasn't no timing method would be ideal I wouldn't think.

Yeah, but the amount of different advance systems out there.. I have seen personally like 7 different timing piston springs, across four completely different timing pistons. Would this then not mean that all those engines need a different static timing value to start from? 

I don't think so, the spring is only one part of the equation. Also, he only stated that they needed to work as they are supposed to. I would assume that would mean that if it was designed to function properly with that spring, then it would still work. He can chime in if he so wants. I am just tying logic together from what was written.

Reply #63February 19, 2014, 06:53:10 am

monkey magic

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2014, 06:53:10 am »
I also see how different engines in different states will have different sweet spots, making setting 'by the book', with either method above, of limited value. But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?

Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? What range from extreme to extreme are we looking at?

Surely the answer to the above is central to the discussion? Only libby has answered the above (saying the sweet spot was usually withing half a degree of 12*).

As far as I can make out, the pulse adapter may be the best method for static timing, and everyone elses argument is, essentially, AGAINST static timing being valid, not so much that the pulse adapter is junk.

It seems to be obvious to me that some sort of static timing should be used to get near the mark, followed by some hillbilly tweaking either side, to find the sweet spot if the static timing isnt enough.

So Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? Anoybody else want to quote figures for same? Only libby has so far, people are talking about burden of proof but have offered nothing solid to counter libbys observations.
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Reply #64February 19, 2014, 08:23:55 am

TylerDurden

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2014, 08:23:55 am »
I also see how different engines in different states will have different sweet spots, making setting 'by the book', with either method above, of limited value. But, how close is the book value to the typical sweet spot?

Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? What range from extreme to extreme are we looking at?

Surely the answer to the above is central to the discussion? Only libby has answered the above (saying the sweet spot was usually withing half a degree of 12*).

As far as I can make out, the pulse adapter may be the best method for static timing, and everyone elses argument is, essentially, AGAINST static timing being valid, not so much that the pulse adapter is junk.

It seems to be obvious to me that some sort of static timing should be used to get near the mark, followed by some hillbilly tweaking either side, to find the sweet spot if the static timing isnt enough.

So Toby, in the 100's that you've timed up, was the sweet spot always pretty close to the by the book setting, or could it be different by a fair margin? Anoybody else want to quote figures for same? Only libby has so far, people are talking about burden of proof but have offered nothing solid to counter libbys observations.

I don't wouldn't say this is just about static timing, nor that anyone has regarded the piezo as "junk". This has centered on whether a single absolute setting (e.g. 12o BTDC) can be best - across engines -... or if "best" varies by engine and can only be determined by performance.

It's doubtful that anyone has recorded a dial-position after setting an IP by performance, because it wouldn't be particularly relevant to another engine. Setting "Best" by performance is often regarded as unique to any engine and a measurement of static timing is moot - reference marks scribed on the IP and bracket are faster/easier to use as relative reference (faster than a piezo).

Reply #65February 19, 2014, 09:21:30 am

monkey magic

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2014, 09:21:30 am »
I don't wouldn't say this is just about static timing, nor that anyone has regarded the piezo as "junk". This has centered on whether a single absolute setting (e.g. 12o BTDC) can be best - across engines -... or if "best" varies by engine and can only be determined by performance.

The core counter argument was talk around the difference between injection timing and combustion/flame front, and hence implying you can't use a static timing setup for anything useful due to these differences in different engines. So that argument wasn't just against pulse adapter, but but indirectly against all static timing methods. You went on to say static timing is moot, how is this not an argument against static timing?!?!

It's doubtful that anyone has recorded a dial-position after setting an IP by performance, because it wouldn't be particularly relevant to another engine.

Not sure about nobody recording a dial position after setting by performance. Surely its not just about being relevant to other engines, but also about being able to return straight to that sweet spot.

Also, if nobody has recorded these settings after setting by performance, then nobody can argue that libbys assertion that the sweet spot will usually be half a * off from 12* is wrong!! Thats why Im asking, in the real world, how far from 12* was YOUR engines sweet spot. Is 12* a brilliant starting point? IS it almost always on the money? We dont know, because only Libby has posted figures. Everybody else has rushed in to argue against, but nobody has actually stated any alternative numbers.

Setting "Best" by performance is often regarded as unique to any engine and a measurement of static timing is moot - reference marks scribed on the IP and bracket are faster/easier to use as relative reference (faster than a piezo).

You say setting best by performance is unique per engine, but you're not saying anything new, you're just echoing what has been said here a 100 times already. What we really want to know, is HOW unique. Surely you agree that this is significant?

And timing marks scribed on the bracket / pump body are useless if you switch out injectors for ones with different break pressures, as the timing will have moved as a result (the pulse adapter wouldnt suffer this tho!). What about when fitting a new pump? Or a modded pump? Or a new bracket? Lots of reasons to want a static timing reference (hence people buying and using timing dials!) where marks on the bracket aren't useful.

This thread was started to make it easier for people to use the pulse adapter system, instead its full of people implying its pointless and that libby is full of it. Nobody has yet demonstrated how pointless, by offering up figures different from libbys. Nobody has disproved the +/- half a degree from 12*, and nobody has offered any data to suggest it is greatly varied. Libby has backed up what he says is a worthy method, with numbers. Those that say otherwise should be putting up numbers too.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 09:27:36 am by monkey magic »
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Reply #66February 19, 2014, 07:22:55 pm

rbremiller

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2014, 07:22:55 pm »
I just received a Mac Diesel Pulse Tester from my co-worker. I'll check the timing this weekend if the sensor fits the line OK. There's no instructions with it but seems self-explanatory. It's been reccomended to clean the line well where the sensor attaches, and put it as close to the pump as physically possible.
'91 180k Audi 80Q mTDI DD AHU, K14, LT pump,
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=45645
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Reply #67February 19, 2014, 09:01:52 pm

vanbcguy

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« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2014, 09:01:52 pm »
Awesome! Definitely be interested to know where you are timed at before making any adjustments too.

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Reply #68February 20, 2014, 05:34:46 pm

rbremiller

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2014, 05:34:46 pm »

I don't want to get ahead of myself but when I'm through checking mine I'd like to lend this to other interested parties who are on a similar quest.
'91 180k Audi 80Q mTDI DD AHU, K14, LT pump,
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=45645
'99 Jetta TDI 204k '02 engine, RC3+E, 11mm IP, .216, Racepipe, 2.5''SS exhaust, PD Lift pump,  Boostvalve, PanzerPlate, boost gauge, MAF delete.
'89 Audi 80Q ...waiting
'85 BMW R80

Reply #69February 22, 2014, 12:50:32 pm

rbremiller

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread "NEW RESULTS"
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2014, 12:50:32 pm »
I just finished checking the timing in my car with the above mentioned pulse tester. I know it may be hard for some to believe the results but here goes. The adjustable timing light showed exactly 12  Believe it. I gave a whoop and ran into the house to post this. The sensor wouldn't register at first because the coupling is for a 1/4" line and it wasn't really tight enough. I shaved the contact points on the edges where it shut to make it close tighter. Initially I got a pulse only when holding it but as I turned it slightly it flashed on its own. I turned the adjustable knob on the light in both directions to verify the reading. I didn't honestly expect it to be right on the number. Dead-on balls accurate. I'm thrilled.
Rich B
'91 180k Audi 80Q mTDI DD AHU, K14, LT pump,
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=45645
'99 Jetta TDI 204k '02 engine, RC3+E, 11mm IP, .216, Racepipe, 2.5''SS exhaust, PD Lift pump,  Boostvalve, PanzerPlate, boost gauge, MAF delete.
'89 Audi 80Q ...waiting
'85 BMW R80

Reply #70February 22, 2014, 05:48:18 pm

745 turbogreasel

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2014, 05:48:18 pm »
Was your initial timing hillbilly or dial gauge?

Reply #71February 22, 2014, 06:05:00 pm

bbob203

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2014, 06:05:00 pm »
The proof is in the pudding. ;D
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Reply #72February 22, 2014, 07:46:29 pm

rbremiller

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2014, 07:46:29 pm »
Was your initial timing hillbilly or dial gauge?
I've checked my timing with a dial indicator dozens of times since my project's inception. I've followed settings of many others with similar pumps found in dozens of searches as a guideline. This is documented a bit in this thread;http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34290.0 I've timed it by ear while running several times, checked fuel mileage etc. It always came back to the smoothest running, best mileage spot was .83mm pump lift on the dial which on my car I've determined is exactly 12 BTDC. My timing is now set. Hillbilly means nothing to me. I've tried to be as methodical and concise as possible with the tools available to me to get to this point. This forum and its contributors have provided the bulk of the most important info. overall.
'91 180k Audi 80Q mTDI DD AHU, K14, LT pump,
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=45645
'99 Jetta TDI 204k '02 engine, RC3+E, 11mm IP, .216, Racepipe, 2.5''SS exhaust, PD Lift pump,  Boostvalve, PanzerPlate, boost gauge, MAF delete.
'89 Audi 80Q ...waiting
'85 BMW R80

Reply #73February 22, 2014, 09:29:20 pm

rbremiller

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2014, 09:29:20 pm »
Here's a link to my first ever youtube  upload.
http://youtu.be/W1qBKMAaHMc
You can see the zero in the strobe and the timing light knob is at 12. Look closely. It's an iPhone vid so whatever.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 09:33:17 pm by rbremiller »
'91 180k Audi 80Q mTDI DD AHU, K14, LT pump,
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=45645
'99 Jetta TDI 204k '02 engine, RC3+E, 11mm IP, .216, Racepipe, 2.5''SS exhaust, PD Lift pump,  Boostvalve, PanzerPlate, boost gauge, MAF delete.
'89 Audi 80Q ...waiting
'85 BMW R80

Reply #74February 22, 2014, 09:43:16 pm

rbremiller

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Re: Diesel Pulse Adapter Info Thread
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2014, 09:43:16 pm »
The tester:


 
I must say the tester worked very well. Easy to use. It would be more improved with a correct sized (6mm) pick-up. As Andrew stated earlier in this thread they're available for about $60.00.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 09:49:20 pm by rbremiller »
'91 180k Audi 80Q mTDI DD AHU, K14, LT pump,
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=45645
'99 Jetta TDI 204k '02 engine, RC3+E, 11mm IP, .216, Racepipe, 2.5''SS exhaust, PD Lift pump,  Boostvalve, PanzerPlate, boost gauge, MAF delete.
'89 Audi 80Q ...waiting
'85 BMW R80

 

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