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Author Topic: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.  (Read 18384 times)

October 12, 2013, 01:34:36 pm

Jetmugg

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Hi, guys and gals:

I haven't been on the TDI forum much, spending most of my time on the IDI forum.  I have built a 1984 Dodge Rampage that is set up for land speed racing, using a 1.5L VW turbodiesel for power.  For any interested parties, here are a couple of links (one to my build diary for the truck, and a second one which is a Youtube video of the truck on a chassis dyno).

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10625.0.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYikOly9S0

Since we are basically in the "off" season for land speed racing, I have plenty of time to daydream before next year's season kicks off in Wilmington, Ohio, then Bonneville.

What I'm dreaming about is along the lines of what it would take to build a TDI-based engine to compete in the 1.5 - 2.0 Liter Diesel Truck Class.

I'm asking you for any and all ideas about what you might suggest to build an engine that would be in this class (1.5 - 2.0 L displacement).

What would you suggest as a basis for a build?  Which block, which head, which turbo, which pump, cam, pistons, etc?

At this point, I'm just trying to gain as much knowledge as possible, and welcome all ideas.

I have spoken to members of the current recordholder's team.  For reference, the current record for G/DT (2.0 L Diesel Truck) is 129.7 mph, and was set using an AAZ based engine in a Dodge D50 pickup.  They hurt the engine in this little truck many years ago, and it has been sitting ever since.  The original owner of the truck passed away in the meantime, and there has been no push to get it back onto the salt.

Please - let the ideas fly.

Thank You,

Steve.






Reply #1October 12, 2013, 03:02:54 pm

CRSMP5

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2013, 03:02:54 pm »
ill shoot you a pm on the 2.0 idi dream of mine....

but 2.0 16v 9a block, rods, pistons..

for now im playing with a 1.6 style head.. but a 1.9 could be used..

head gasket will be a combo of aaz metal and 2.0 gasser.. the shim between the metal layers can be swapped.. to play with compression vs piston heights.. gasser does not protrude as much as diesel..

aaz oil pump, vac pump, and im shaft so clear the crank swing of the 2.0... gasser pieces turn wrong direction.. kinda sad as if you can use stock parts it would have a vac pump delete.. 

why/how.. ill explain in pm.. but i have discussed this idea.. just not tested yet as the 9a set up needs im shaft bearings.. and a car to tuck it in for testing.. :P

Reply #2October 12, 2013, 03:48:21 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 03:48:21 pm »
ALH, done up to the nines. Heavy porting, big valves, the best manifolds, HUGE injectors, big tune, big turbo- lotsa flow at moderate psi.

H-rods, ceramic coated factory pistons, Stage 3 or 4 colt cam, factory E-pump done by dieselmeken or giles with an 11mm or 12mm head put in.

Reply #3October 12, 2013, 04:15:54 pm

CRSMP5

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2013, 04:15:54 pm »
why??

these engines were built to pull high rpm in old superv applications... they lacked beam rods and such... a stock 16v revs more then diesel can burn... so to clean up the stock bottom end parts should be all thats needed...

his holding power will be rpm and gearing... unlike the 1.5 he will have more torque to pull a better gear set... which is what he will need to accomplish..

i think a 9a bottom end on his current set up is cake and give his goal.. i do not see him getting more rpm from it as is... but stouter gear set with torque to pull it.. ok.. he in the running..

Reply #4October 12, 2013, 04:55:56 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2013, 04:55:56 pm »
2.0 CR 16v engine.

Reply #5October 12, 2013, 05:46:56 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 05:46:56 pm »
Ultimately yeah CR. Or the early pd's. I suggested alh for ease.

Chris your idea sounds like way more work than worth haha.

Yeah sure the stock 9a is good to that, but what about the heavier diesel rods and heavier diesel pistons? Thats what breaks you on top rpm. Rotating mass.

Reply #6October 12, 2013, 06:21:08 pm

RabbitJockey

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 06:21:08 pm »
Id do an alh with big valves big turbo and possibly a zoltan kiss pump.  There are some huge hp tdis in finnland like 300+hp. If be checking what theyre doing
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Reply #7October 13, 2013, 08:51:40 am

theman53

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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 08:51:40 am »
If you are going big huge power I would skip the h beam rods and go for the x beam.

Reply #8October 13, 2013, 09:19:39 am

CRSMP5

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2013, 09:19:39 am »
 ::)  ok if you got huge budgets... i still think the 9a idi will pull 120.. this just being a block swap to what he already has...

16v diesels an such.. ya ok.. dreams are dreams... like winning lotto..

a 150 hp diesel will run like a 300hp one over 3 miles.. flat out... does not matter how fast it gets thee per say... getting to 125 in 1 mile vs 2 does not matter... the ability to get the rpm vs gear ratio to the speed seeked is goal..

now can you do more crazy gearing with 300hp.. yes... but hell.. him adding a 250$ 9a to his current set up.. an if it even came close to 127mph... hell.. id laugh at those who spent their lotto winnings..

he has 150+hp on a 1.5 idi... a bump to 2.0 should put him well around the 200 point with the rest of his goodies.. add in the torque increase... he will be doing a 02a swap next for tdi gearing.. if e can wind that out... i can see good times

Reply #9October 13, 2013, 11:06:12 am

Jetmugg

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 11:06:12 am »
The current 1.5L Diesel Truck record is roughly 106 mph.  I feel confident that I can be competitive against that record.

The current 2.0L Diesel Truck record is roughly 130 mph.  The guys who set it used a "tuned to the moon" AAZ.  I'm pretty sure they melted the engine down on their last run.  I don't have any confidence about being competitive against that record, that's why I'm asking.

I am open to all ideas for building enough power to beat 130 mph.  I have no illusion that it will be easy - just looking for good ideas to make that kind of power (I'm guessing somewhere on the high side of 220 HP will be required).  The vehicle has to cover 3 miles at essentially full throttle to be competitive. Big torque down low is fine, but the gearing and tire size choices are somewhat limited, so this engine will have to spin a bunch of RPM's to get the job done.

I don't have really deep pockets, either.  I would much rather use as many OEM parts as possible, especially if they have been proven to work in higher HP applications.

I guess I need to spend some time with the O2A transmission chart to see what the "tallest" readily available transmission will provide in terms of rpms vs speed.

Steve.


Reply #10October 13, 2013, 05:15:17 pm

Blocksmith

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 05:15:17 pm »
Regardless of what you end up using, I would do everything I could to make it rev--balance everything, knife-edge the crank, shave the IM shaft (if it has one); I would shoot for a sustained 7000rpm motor. Talk to the pump masters to see if that's even possible, but I think it must be--I've read about Gale Banks wanting to raise the rpm ceiling of diesels, and I seem to recall he was wanting to go higher than that. It might take a common rail setup to get there, but even so...
IDI is better for revving higher just from the combustion characteristics, but from what I understand, past a certain point the precup inserts are just too small for all the fuel being forced through them--you might want to see if anyone has retrofitted larger inserts for these engines.
The basic problem I foresee is that you're just not going to be able to get a tall enough trans to make a torque build work for those speeds, outside of a custom gear set. But I could be wrong--I'm certainly no trans expert.

But, regardless of what you do, read up on every post that Aki-76, TurboJ, and Alcaid (and of course the others on this site who have been pathfinders in making insane HP; I can't remember them all off the top of my head) have ever graced the forum with, and then send them messages personally asking for their opinion.

Are you allowed to use any other fuel than diesel (specifically thinking propane here)?
Green 83 Rabbit 4dr, 5 speed ACH trans swap, ported 1.6D mech lifter w/ vnt15, na pump w/ gov mod, gasser intake mani, 2.5" exhaust, bilstein sports and cut mk2 springs, ss brake lines, 14" vw bottlecaps

Reply #11October 13, 2013, 05:36:22 pm

RabbitJockey

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 05:36:22 pm »
you can fit larger swirl chambers it takes machining obviously, andy2 used gm diesel swirl chambers in an aaz he built, and lucas's monster 1.6 has modified swirl chambers with larger oulets, i have also been told by the hungarian pump builder that bigger power requires bigger swirl chamber oulets, its as important as bigger valves/porting.

but i still think i'd go tdi route on this one, its going to be less problematic since you're going to need to sustain some pretty serious power levels for a long time to do over 130mph.

honestly to do it with a tdi, it's going to take a similar recipe as what you built with your 1.5 idi.
01 Jetta TDI 100% stock daily
81 Rabbit:TDI-M ported head, Frank06 cam, PD intake, hybrid T3 turbo, Renault intercooler, Syl20 11mm pump, light weight fw, and yellow California Clutch clutch kit

Reply #12October 14, 2013, 07:56:52 am

theman53

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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 07:56:52 am »
I like Crsmp idea. You have a year to try it and as is cheap to try. If it doesn't work out then I would buy my 1.6 and try or at least use the head on an aaz. I would stay away from TDI as they make most of their power under 4,000 rpm...which won't get a record unless you buy a custom 6 speed

Reply #13October 14, 2013, 08:34:24 am

Jetmugg

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Re: Daydreaming a 1.9 TDI for land speed racing - help me dream, please.
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 08:34:24 am »
I have already been thinking about your 1.6TD, and what kind of vehicle I might want to put it in.  Unfortunately, I can't think of anything that would make sense for me.  I already have a couple of nice dialy driver diesels (Ram 2500 and Mercedes 190D 2.5 Turbo).  If I can convince a friend that your 98% complete project is a good idea, I'd be happy to come get it and give it a new home.

I need to get back up to the local Pick-N-Pull.  I know there was a 2.0 VW 4-banger in there, but at the time, that kind of thing wasn't even on my radar screen.  I already have a spare AAZ head that I want to have some serious porting done on.

I think I could come up with an even bigger injection pump, and a bigger turbo.

Can anyone provide an example of a running 2.0 9a / diesel engine?  In concept it sounds plausible, but if it's never been done, that seems like a stretch.

Steve.

Reply #14October 14, 2013, 09:20:18 am

theman53

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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 09:20:18 am »
Crsmp has been involved in a gasser to diesel. It will run the issue is how well how long. I would say for 100.00 at your pick and pull test it yourself with your spare stuff. You will need the aaz vac pump and I'm shaft.
With my engine it is up and going again. Runs good. If you want it for the price I have I will throw in every extra part I have for it except the 02a. That can be a spare for my daily. 7a trans 14 spare rims snow tires core support front lip tin and spoiler small rear bumper...I would just like to dyno it before it leaves or know it would be.

 

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