My 84 1.6 - Help wont start

[libbydiesel]

Considering he cranked it over several times with various freshly charged/new batteries and got a resounding thud each time, anything short of pulling the head is a waste of time, IMO.  Even if he gets it timed right and it runs halfway decent, it will drop the head off one of the bent valves in a couple thousand miles... 

[vanbcguy]

^^^^ This.

[ORCoaster]

Libby,  I kind of thought about that too.  But wanted to try the less complex as he doesn't have our knowledge base on this engine.  I was hoping for the best situation in that he didn't damage anything with all the thuds and bumps.

[Jetmugg]

That looks like a pretty clean car.  Obviously, the timing is significantly out of whack.

If you plan on keeping this car, a Bentley manual is a MUST HAVE, along with the correct tools for setting the timing. 

It's possible to "talk" someone through the process via an internet forum, but only if all parties understand exactly what needs to be done and how to do it.

My 2 cents - don't mess with it anymore until you get a Bentley manual.  Then understand how the cam, crank, and pump timing need to be established.  Then do it by the book.

[atherton213]

I do have a bently, ive been reading though it a lot more lately.

Thank you everyone so far for your help.... this type of car stuff is above my knowledge so all the help is much appreciated.

You guys said special tools, i saw the special tools thread im gonna go through that. and see what i can find for trying this timing.

I saw that new valves and stuff are pretty cheap, and the exterior and interior of this car are in really good condition, so i might as well rebuild the motor, give it a good refresh and keep it running for a while.   I have no timeline for this so if it takes me a year so what...

oh and the car was only $400 

[vanbcguy]

Sounds like a good call.

The issue with bent valves is that they can be damaged in such a way that they don't really cause running issues other than maybe some excess valve train noise, but the heads will come off later on. When that happens the broken off valve head will take out the piston and the soft aluminum cylinder head too. If you get really lucky it'll mess the bore up at the same time.

So "just run it and hope for the best" can easily take an engine that would have been perfect with $80 in new valves and turn it in to a complete boat anchor.

Anyhow, now you know! It's not a huge big deal to fix, really just needs some gaskets plus the valves that were getting whacked. Though it's pretty easy to get going on a whole lot more "while you're in there"

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[Toby]

If it were mine, I would re-time it and light it off to assess its condition. If it starts and does not burn oil I would just do the head and no more. Rebuilds are very expensive. Even a "rings in the driveway" overhaul is not cheap and it is VERY hard to duplicate the factory ring seal. A good motor that gets re-ringed may never get the compression back to where it was when it came apart.

That being said, for goodness sake don't drive it or let it run more than a few minutes. Valves and a head gasket are cheap. Drop a valve and its all over.

[atherton213]

probably not a full rebuild but the top 1/2 of the motor probably will do.  Bought some tools from harbor frieght (hate all you want ive had really good luck from there) and found this post http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28 that has a decent how to on the timing. 

[TylerDurden]

You might try getting the valve timing lined-up and then get compression readings before pulling the head. If the readings all suck, you might as well put in rings. If just one hole sucks, it might be a clue where to look for valve damage.

Also, before adjusting the camshaft timing, I'd pull the cover and take a pic of the position of the camshaft, to know which valves are currently open when you (gently) reach the limit of crank travel. You want a good look at those parts.

[CRSMP5]

with thuds i would not!! broken lifter bucket... would ruin a head that may still be saved... pull head... new valves... measure piston heights as you can also bend a rod..

[8v-of-fury]

Yes please. Don't take it apart before you take pictures. it may save a bunch of time and effort to have us diagnose first.

Yours SHOULD look like this.. Rotate a little further and see if there is a mark matching this



If your Flywheel has no zero or a nything right by the left of that bolt head in between those two big lugs.. like this one



You can still set it to TDC, by aligning it with the very left of the bolt casting like in the first picture shown.




NOW, with it at this mark.. what does the cam shaft look like? Please take some pictures for us. Very hard for us to help if we cannot see for ourselves. Relying on what the uninformed says to be, is not accurate at all.

The thuds are alarming, and this thing is probably timed wrong unfortunately.

[atherton213]

well before i tackle this head on, whats a good website to pickup some new valves (do i need new springs too) and best place to pick up a gasket set and other goodies i should replace.

now before i get yelled at by anyone, I have been searching and found a few websites.... just didnt know if there is one everyone here recommends for parts

http://www.partsplaceinc.com seems to have pretty much everything
http://www.germanautoparts.com/ - doesnt seem to sell the valves
ebay... ive heard bad things about certain sellers on there so i get scared... although i love ebay and im not affraid to buy from it if thats the best place

[Dakotakid]

Several years ago, I got "corn hulled" by parts place after regularly buying from them for at least ten years. My advice on them is "last resort." The place changed management and they started using a lot of chinko parts.

German auto is first rate, but their prices tend to run a little higher on pretty much everything. Plus, freight is never included (as to my knowledge).

Autohausaz.com (Phoenix area) does extremely well with prices and freight after $75. However, they do not always have everything. Usually receive orders here in SD in 4 days.

Partsgeek.com does very well on prices and availablility of items. You always pay freight. Fast shipping at a few days.

Rockauto.com has a lot of stuff and pretty good prices and quick shipment. Just make your choices carefully with them. They frequently have close-outs on random items.

I've checked all the other places recommended here on this forum and I have never seen better than these 4.

Added with edit: If the lifters come out, turn the buckets upside down and rinse out with carb cleaner or gas and rag and inspect the inside of them for cracks. Cracks show up on the inside before they show up on the top. If you have access to magnifying glass or machinist's glasses, take a good look.

I will let other guys advise you on the valve springs. I, personally, have never replaced them in my rebuilds. Some of my heads did have the old ones tested at the machine shop with the special compressors. Some did not.

You also need some of these guys to chime in on valve guides. I have personally never "pinched" valves in one of these engines. If I did, I would be inclined to go with new valve guides. But, we are talking more money (machine shop situation for the most part). It always seemed to me that if a person smashed a valve.....the guide would get a little out of "round" as well. Let someone else talk to you.

One thing I WILL say is NEVER use starting fluid/ether no matter how desperate you think you are. THAT I know personally about . (It is a long story with a very short finish!). Suffice it to say that 23 to 1 compression engine with prechambers CAN'T handle it. Later, dude!

[CRSMP5]

do not buy anything till apart....

cam caps break too... cams do... till you take it apart you do not know if it cheper to find a used head or engine.. what if piston has hole from valve and head has chunks? just as bbob as he thought he was your kind of lucky...

"stsalled at idle in drive way...

pull head.. precup gone.. valve head gone.. hole in piston and bore.. and his turned over to thud.. via key and all... he actually thought it had compression on 4 cylenders turning crank with no belt/cam till belt was installed and it went ting...

[TylerDurden]

^^ Wise advice.