Heads up to those who plan on running head studs

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

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at 100, the trouble started!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  the first stud was difficult how ever not impossible to turn, and i got it up to 100 ft lbs.  the second stud how ever would not budge.  i'll be honest, i have always been a scrawny guy, but seriously this one would not move, it ended up feeling like i was going to strip the 12pt shape of the nut so i

stopped.  and i was like well i'll skip that one, and i did 3-4-5-6, then went back to 2, and that nut wouldn't budge, i ended up half stripping off the 12 pt shape.  so since that wasn't going well, i removed the nut and stud, the nut was very difficult to get off the stud, and when i looked inside the nut, all the threads were squared off.(

 What do you mean it wouldn't budge?

 Weren't you using a torque wrench set to 100 ft lbs?
 
Did the torque wrench click?

good question, it simply wouldn't turn, and no the torque wrench wasn't clicking, im guess this is because the 12 point shape was beginning to strip rather than the nut spinning?

 Did you have to correct size 12 point socket?

Is your torque wrench in calibration and good working order?

[RabbitJockey]

Yes correct socket and have never had an issue with this wrench, also tightened other nuts directly afterwards with out issue

[745 turbogreasel]

ok looking at things more, the nut threads are finer than the block threads.

Well there is a problem
Mine are at 55 ft/lb, with a warning  NOT to use any special slippy lube.

[RabbitJockey]

The instructions with the studs said to go to 80ft lbs and to use the arp lube.  And actually the nut i had issue with was never torqued over 70 ft lbs since it didnt even move when i went to give it 100

[CrazyAndy]

I'll chime in here:  My original set of head studs were not ARP.  They were from a company called Raceware Engineering.  Mine were not supplied with assembly lube, and the instructions said to instead use straight weight motor oil.  Mine were only to be torqued to around 50 ft-lbs.  Still, I suffered the same failure of RJ, on the same bolt. 

745, why is torquing more accurate in one single motion?  I always thought torque was torque, regardless of how many steps it takes to get to final spec, and slow-stepping to final spec looks to reduce the localized stress to the head caused by large torque values at higher steps.  Your thoughts?

Note: On the ARP stud set, my torque application was in 3 roughly equal steps, 45-85-125.  I had no faults, and none of the  areas under the washers are caved in.  Directions were, quote:  "Torque nuts using ARP lube in 3 equal steps to 125 ft-lbs."

[theman53]

I think a lot of companies that were once thought of as good stuff now are suffering the deals I have seen elsewhere in the fastener industry. These American companies are getting sub par steel. It used to be the American companies would have American melt and American machined stuff, then there was Canadian melt and American machined, which was still good. Now the alloys are globally sourced and you can see the results speak for themselves. Nucor and Holochrome are the only all American melt and machined products that I have found to sell. Sadly they are more for the industrial side of things, and do not offer studs for our engines. Another rumor I have heard and have no clue if it is accurate or not is that ARP gets the 2nd batch or the rejected melts that our US gov. turns down for the military. Just speculation and rumor but I could see it is possible.

[burn_your_money]

745, why is torquing more accurate in one single motion? 

I would think torque is torque as long as the bolt/nut is moving when it reaches the desired torque value.
EX: If you are using a ratcheting, clicker torque wrench and you are tightening a nut but run out of room and have to bring the wrench CCW to get more room and the wrench instantly clicks before the nut moves, the nut is under-torqued.

[745 turbogreasel]

Exactly,  breakaway torque starts you moving.  Once moving, you have thread friction, face friction friction, and clamping force.  You guess at the two trying to land the 3rd where you want it....makes  TTy sound like a good idea .  Also probably why every  torque to angle  spec says ,'in one smooth motion'
My Racewares have been in there 4-5 years i think.

[ORCoaster]

Also probably why every  torque to angle  spec says ,'in one smooth motion'   Double up on that!

Why do you think the Bentley tells us to loosen the bolts back about 30 degrees then bring them back to torque spec.  It is for the reasons stated prior.  The breakaway may be more than the clamping and thus you need to get rid of that force to accurately get to the proper clampping one.

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

...............
.
at 100, the trouble started!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  the first stud was difficult how ever not impossible to turn, and i got it up to 100 ft lbs.  the second stud how ever would not budge.  i'll be honest, i have always been a scrawny guy, but seriously this one would not move, it ended up feeling like i was going to strip the 12pt shape of the nut so i

stopped.  and i was like well i'll skip that one, and i did 3-4-5-6, then went back to 2, and that nut wouldn't budge, i ended up half stripping off the 12 pt shape.  so since that wasn't going well, i removed the nut and stud, the nut was very difficult to get off the stud, and when i looked inside the nut, all the threads were squared off.(

 What do you mean it wouldn't budge?

 Weren't you using a torque wrench set to 100 ft lbs?
 
Did the torque wrench click?

good question, it simply wouldn't turn, and no the torque wrench wasn't clicking, im guess this is because the 12 point shape was beginning to strip rather than the nut spinning?

I am still unclear what was happening.

You said:

1. The torque wrench didn't click.

2. It wouldn't turn.  Please clarify what is "it" was, that wouldn't turn

If the "it" was the nut and it wouldn't turn then the torque wrench should have clicked since you are capable of putting out 100 ft lbs?

[RabbitJockey]

torque wrench would not turn with out feeling like it was going to slip off the nut.  torqued #1 in sequence to 100 ft lbs, then #2 wouldn't turn felt like it was going to slip off/strip the nut but didn't click, so i skipped it did 3-6 in sequence all to 100 ft lbs, and it did click, went back to #2 still wouldn't turn so i removed it and the threads were all boxy looking.

[RabbitJockey]

Well, the good news is ARP's warranty department kicks ass, I just had a short conversation with them, told them what happened, and they're sending me a new stud, washer, and nut out tomorrow.  only crappy part is i have to wait a week before it gets here, atleast it was totally painless to get the new parts tho.

andy how ever says raceware is giving him the run around about warranty on the studs he had the same problem with.  just based on that i think i will stick with arp in the future.

[RabbitJockey]

first off, i would like to apologize for all the broken families and aneurisms that this thread which I have created may have caused.

Secondly, i'd like to let you all know that i deeply care about every single one of you.

The depth to which i care, is exactly why i am about to make a sacrifice, that many would shy away from.  Many, simply do not have the balls to do what i am prepared to do for this community, whom i care so much about.

I will proudly wear egg on my face for you, vwdiesel.net.

the problem was my very own fault, as the nut tightens over the stud, the stud begins to stick up, i measured them at .240" above the nut at full tightness, and if you are not using a socket that is deep enough then obviously at some point its going to slip.  this is why like i said on the stud i had a major issue with, i couldn't tighten it with out it feeling like it was going to strip.  I failed to notice this is what was going on until today when i was retorque after warmup.  i realize its been about a month and a half since i initially posted this, but between making time to work on it, and a few other problems i had, plus waiting on parts and stuff i just now got to retorquing.

so in closing,

i still believe much care should be taken when torquing with studs, how ever it is much more important to use proper tools.

[ORCoaster]

Why is it that our second look a month or two later is crystal clear what the problem is and how to fix it?  I have in my own frustration put a project away for awhile in order to come back to it with that 20 20 vision and be done in half a day.  But it takes several weeks to clear the confusion and be able to look at it anew. 

Thanks for admitting to the oversight.  We will send the thugs over later to deal with you. 

LOL

[RabbitJockey]

the thugs are not necessary, karma already visited me for making thisthread.  when i did the hot retorque the block cracked.

i actually replaced the headgasket twice on this car, since i initially made the thread, the first hg i messed up when i installed it causing compression to get in the coolant, so i redid the hg job, and now on my retorque with the second new gasket the block cracked.

so actually, the moral to this thread, is if you're going to do a headgasket on an 11mm engine, dont buy the head gasket or the studs, just throw out the engine and find a 12mm one.