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Leaky injectors, I tried and tried
by
shwartzbewithyou
on 01 Mar, 2006 12:03
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I've got some questions and my "searching" didn't come up with very direct answers. I have leaky diesel injectors so I was told to get some new "crush washers" which I now have, so I tried to get my injectors out but had much difficulty. I have done alot of other automotive work but have never had to touch my injectors in all the cars I've owned (mind you, this is the first diesel I've owned).
Now I only got one injector out and another one came half off (the end attatched to the injector line screwed off the injector body and the body stayed in the head). Also the one I did get out, i looked into the head and saw the old crush washer but couldn't get it out.
So my questions are as follows:
1. How do you get the injectors out?
2. Do you have to remove the injector pump and everything attatched to it to gain access to the injectors?
3. What tool do you use to turn them out? I can't get a large enough socket to go over the top of the injector and reach all the way down to the base where it would grip so do I have to turn off the top half of the injector and then use a large socket to turn out the bottom half?
4. The lines between the injectors are leaking as well. Are these here to balance pressure between the injectors? Or are they strictly return lines? Would a new softer line solve this? I considered puting a gear clamp on each but that seems like a pretty lame solution.
5. I have a injector line on the cylinder farthest from the belt side of the engine that has blown a small pin hole in it and is spraying out with every shot from the pump. Could this be from that injector being clogged and creating a back pressure on that line and thus blowing the hole? I realize that it could jsut be from age but the car sat for about 1.5 years when I bought it, safetied it and put it back into service as my DD. I ran the first tank fairly low and probably sucked up some crud from the settling. Come to think of it I haven't checked the filter yet.
6. After I get the injector out how do I get the washer out of the head? I considered puting a wood screw down into it and pulling up but I didn't want to ruin the washer seat in the head while trying to get the old washer out.
If these questions have been answered before can someone point me to the post with a link?
This is for a 1990 Jetta 1.6 TD. If you guy's can help me out that'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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#1
by
bryanbryan89x
on 01 Mar, 2006 14:17
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Leaky injectors...do you mean they leak out the side of the block??? if so then check as to where they are leaking from...on the injector. If its coming from the halves then you need to lap the injector halves. If it is coming from the return lines then you need to replace those. Or if it is coming from the steel lines you need to replace them..
1. Injectors come out with the proper deep well socket
2. No need to remove the pump, just the steel lines(17mm line wrench)
3. sounds like you need to make a run to sears...
4. you need to replace the lines between the injectors. 3.2mm rubber lines are available at the dealership for cheap. And there is a little rubber cap that goes on the last one.
5. I believe it is due to age...correct me if im wrong
6. I think the washer you speak of is a heat shild. Do not worry about ruining because you need to replace them anyways. If you dont you will burn up your engine in approx 10,000 miles or so i hear.
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#2
by
jantd
on 01 Mar, 2006 15:01
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You have to be careful when screwing the injectors out.
There is a mail in the IDI section,I can't remember who it came from,but basically it said you can break the block by turning out the injectors
The guy had broken the thread and even a crack in the block, by turning them LOOSE!!
How to: he was adviced to first put some WD 40 in advance and drive with it for a while.There is a lot of carbon and other sh..that fills the thread and is hard as a stone!WD 40 weakens it.
Then,turning loose there are two ways,either you pull towards yourself or away from you,and that was so important that it makes the difference between breaking the thing or not.I would never have come to that myself!
Does anybody remember which way it was cause I don't.And whether COLD or HOT engine.
Then, dont turn loose in one go,as the dirt in the thread might/will accumulate and block,with breakage of block as possible consequence.So turn a bit loose,and then the opposite direction,and slowly go further until its completely out,without forcing.
So,I hope I helped you out a bit and maybe saved you from a broken block.
Good luck
jan
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#3
by
chrissev
on 01 Mar, 2006 17:21
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I've got some questions and my "searching" didn't come up with very direct answers. I have leaky diesel injectors so I was told to get some new "crush washers" which I now have, so I tried to get my injectors out but had much difficulty. I have done alot of other automotive work but have never had to touch my injectors in all the cars I've owned (mind you, this is the first diesel I've owned).
Now I only got one injector out and another one came half off (the end attatched to the injector line screwed off the injector body and the body stayed in the head). Also the one I did get out, i looked into the head and saw the old crush washer but couldn't get it out.
So my questions are as follows:
1. How do you get the injectors out?
use a 27mm deep socket. People tell me you can buy them at sears. Snap on also sells them but they charge around $70.
2. Do you have to remove the injector pump and everything attatched to it to gain access to the injectors?
No.
3. What tool do you use to turn them out? I can't get a large enough socket to go over the top of the injector and reach all the way down to the base where it would grip so do I have to turn off the top half of the injector and then use a large socket to turn out the bottom half?
No remove them all together with 27mm deep socket discussed above. If you remove the top part only, there is a spring inside that will pop out and you will probably have to reset the pop pressure I think. Never had one apart but from the pictures I've seen that is what will happen.
4. The lines between the injectors are leaking as well. Are these here to balance pressure between the injectors? Or are they strictly return lines? Would a new softer line solve this? I considered puting a gear clamp on each but that seems like a pretty lame solution.
they are strictly return lines. if they leak there are a number of things it could be. The return to the fuel tank could be blocked. A line somewhere could be blocked. One or more injectors could be leaking high pressure into the return system. or they could just be old and cracked.
5. I have a injector line on the cylinder farthest from the belt side of the engine that has blown a small pin hole in it and is spraying out with every shot from the pump. Could this be from that injector being clogged and creating a back pressure on that line and thus blowing the hole? I realize that it could jsut be from age but the car sat for about 1.5 years when I bought it, safetied it and put it back into service as my DD. I ran the first tank fairly low and probably sucked up some crud from the settling. Come to think of it I haven't checked the filter yet.
the line probably has a rust pin hole in it. Keep your hands away from that spray. It could be very high pressure.
6. After I get the injector out how do I get the washer out of the head? I considered puting a wood screw down into it and pulling up but I didn't want to ruin the washer seat in the head while trying to get the old washer out.
this is a problem that I haven't read a satisfactory answer to as of yet. The "heat sheilds" as these washers are called, often become caked in carbon and basically weld themselves to the head using the melted carbon residue as glue. The only sure fire way to get them out is to take the head off, remove the precup, and hammer them out from behind. This takes a lot of effort though. The problem you run into if you don't want to do this is what you have already noticed, if you destroy the heat shield trying to get it out, and still don't get it out, then you are going to have to take the head off. If you don't destroy it, and leave it in there, it won't seal properly, but at least you can still run the engine. So if you do decide to destroy them, you are gambling that you will eventually be able to get them out. Don't hammer them in the head to try to loosen them. Some people do this, and they pop the aluminum seat down into the head (it is quite thin metal). This of course completely destroys the cylinder head. There is a picture somewhere on this site that shows a cylinder head cut in half and you can see the injector seat and how thin it is. Also you can see how thin the outside of the threaded hole that the injector is threaded into is. Basically that whole area is built of very soft, very thin aluminum. Exercise extreme caution and thoughtfulness at all times when you are working there.
If these questions have been answered before can someone point me to the post with a link?
This is for a 1990 Jetta 1.6 TD. If you guy's can help me out that'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
now that you have the injector out, you need to torque it when you put it back in. The torque settings are on this website somewhere, you can do a search to find them. I haven't got my bentley handy otherwise I'd look it up for you.
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#4
by
shwartzbewithyou
on 02 Mar, 2006 07:11
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I've got some questions and my "searching" didn't come up with very direct answers. I have leaky diesel injectors so I was told to get some new "crush washers" which I now have, so I tried to get my injectors out but had much difficulty. I have done alot of other automotive work but have never had to touch my injectors in all the cars I've owned (mind you, this is the first diesel I've owned).
Now I only got one injector out and another one came half off (the end attatched to the injector line screwed off the injector body and the body stayed in the head). Also the one I did get out, i looked into the head and saw the old crush washer but couldn't get it out.
So my questions are as follows:
1. How do you get the injectors out?
use a 27mm deep socket. People tell me you can buy them at sears. Snap on also sells them but they charge around $70.
2. Do you have to remove the injector pump and everything attatched to it to gain access to the injectors?
No.
4. The lines between the injectors are leaking as well. Are these here to balance pressure between the injectors? Or are they strictly return lines? Would a new softer line solve this? I considered puting a gear clamp on each but that seems like a pretty lame solution.
they are strictly return lines. if they leak there are a number of things it could be. The return to the fuel tank could be blocked. A line somewhere could be blocked. One or more injectors could be leaking high pressure into the return system. or they could just be old and cracked.
So if I had say one injector blocked then it could be causing hi pressure in the return lines as well as in the inlet line and thus blowing that pinhold in the line....
hmmm
Also if I don't remove the injector pump it seems almost impossible to get to the #1 and #2 injector. I was told on VW vortex that I could rotate the pump away from the block to gain access to them. Just as long as I put the pump right back and thus don't mess up my timing.
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#5
by
jantd
on 02 Mar, 2006 10:39
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Here is something from boat applications, you might want to try it for releasing the washers blocked by carbon:the product is called quicksilver powertune.it does not eat aluminium,as it is used to spray in the airinlet,whilst engine is running,and the blocks are also from aluminium.
it dissolves carbon immediately,like u wudn't believe.and it flows away as a black liquid.if u can't find that,i think there is the same type ofproduct for car engines,it cleans the inside of the engine of all carbon. I never tried it 4 injectors,but i bet it works.it might also be good to clean the thread before installing new injectors.we use it often,and nothing can beat it when it comes to removing carbon
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#6
by
wyldman
on 02 Mar, 2006 13:20
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Ford has a great product called Tune-up cleaner.It is one of the few products out there that will break up carbon.Part # is CXC-52B,an your local dealer should stock it.It's around $7.00 a can.A couple of squirts,and they should loosen up.
If they are still stubborn to get out,you can bump the motor over to blow them loose.Stand well clear,and close the hood.The compression will usually blow them out,or break them free.
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#7
by
chrissev
on 02 Mar, 2006 19:43
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So if I had say one injector blocked then it could be causing hi pressure in the return lines as well as in the inlet line and thus blowing that pinhold in the line.... hmmm
If it was blocked it would more than likely be stuck open. That is what often happens to them. Never heard of one being blocked closed. They pop open at a certain very high pressure (130 bar or 155 bar depending on whether it is a turbo or a N/A car) which is about 2000 psi.
Also if I don't remove the injector pump it seems almost impossible to get to the #1 and #2 injector. I was told on VW vortex that I could rotate the pump away from the block to gain access to them. Just as long as I put the pump right back and thus don't mess up my timing.
You don't need to move the pump if you use the snap on 27mm socket with an extension. I have an 88 turbo diesel jetta and that is what I use. I have never had to move the pump to remove the injectors. If you do move the pump, you will need to reset the pump timing. To do this you need a dial gauge and a special adaptor. I have heard of people marking the pump location, moving it, then moving it back. I have timed my car many times and I know that the increments in timing are very small. The window you are dealing with is around ten hundredths of an inch (.030 to .040) and it only takes the smallest touch of the pump to move the timing several hundredths of an inch. I doubt you could set it accurately by marking it and then trying to put the pump back in line with your markings.
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#8
by
hillfolk'r
on 06 Mar, 2006 17:00
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if u use a sears 27mmsocket,,you will need to grind on the inside so the return "ears" on the injector wont get damaged,,i have both,a sears socket,and a snapon,,,snapon correct socket was about 35$,,but a sears properly clearanced willwork too
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#9
by
LeeG
on 07 Mar, 2006 07:41
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I was planning on picking up a 27mm deep this week. What should I look for inside the socket as it sounds like some need clearencing some dont.
I guess I could track down a snap on dude, but I have always hated paying top dollar for their tools, then when one breaks, having to wait for the dude to show up again and then argue about how it broke. Sears and crappy tire just shrug and hand you a new one.
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#10
by
shwartzbewithyou
on 11 Mar, 2006 20:28
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Funny thing happened guys. I had a can of injector cleaner that I WAS going to soak my injectors in overnight (diluted of course) but since I couldn't get my injectors out that night, I threw it in the tank the next time I filled up. Voila, 3 out of 4 aren't leaking anymore. Weird but I'm happy anyways. I'm still going to have to change the line on the 4th one that has the pinhole in it, and maybe even the first return line but other than that it looks fine. I know it still firing on all 4 and the injectors are still clicking (long scredriver test, put my ear up to it) so I guess maybe they had been restricted for whatever reason and creating a back pressure in the return lines. Nonetheless the stuff really worked.
I'll get to the rest of it as soon as I can. Hopefully tomorrow.
Shanks alot.