AAZ project update

[745 turbogreasel]

so explain exactly how that succeeds with his goal?

oil pressure switch becomes open floating once pressure... so relay needs to turn off as it lacks ground/power from switch... its floating...

so with 87a... ok turns off the relay... #87a has power then... sweet...

when no oil pressure.. the relay turns on... as the op switch turns to ground... crap.. ok.. no power to 87a.. but power feeds to 87 now... nothing hooked to 87.. ok.. the relay is turned on though.. so 2 days later the batt dead...

see the problem with a 87a relay? unless you run a switched power 30.. from silly black wire circuit he trying to not tap in to.. i see no advantage of any kind.. just use the black wire...

Ah, but you turn the key off, and the oil light goes out, relay  draws no power.
Key On Engine Off, light is on, a minute amount of power is burned  defeating AWIC.
Key Off, control side has neither  power nor ground, and draws no power, relay is resting in AWIC 'on' position
I too am advocating switched( I''ll assume black wire, but am by no means fluent in VW chassis harnesses) power  to the 30, and am offering this as a way to achieve  no AWIC wile the engine is stopped.

Another approach wold be  to use the GM  oil pressure sender like ACDelco 19244497.  Orange and tan/white will run your  IC any time oil pressure is over 4 lbs.

[CRSMP5]

turn key off turns instrument cluster off.. not the oil switch.. its still a ground.. other side of light is the silly black wire he does not wanna tap into...

the relays that use a 87a tend to have 30 powered by the key.. not hot all the time...

to swap just a 87 and 87a relay.. it will stay powered when the op switch makes ground.. you cannot tease a relay to work properly in floating mode.. has to be ground or power...

so to use yes/no oil pressure with a stock switch cannot be done via relay... unless you kill power to the actual relay..

he is not using the stock oil light system.. he is trying to add a 3rd oil switch for this to be some sort of on/off switch..

now if a gm switch works ass backwards.. makes ground with pressure.. ok that will work... but my knowldge.. usually ground when no pressure.. but gm is not my depth of knowledge..

my guess how he thinks to wire this idea up...  ill note it with flaws... 

30, 86 batt
87 his pump and all..
85 oil switch.. some how he thinks it will ground... and the cause for this debate... only ground with no pressure

so ignore that with a 87a style relay.. that your saying will work... again ill note the flaws...
30, 86 batt... needs to be key, gm does this lots w/key powered source...
87a pumps and stuff
85 op switch.. not running = ground= turn on 87 and 87a off... when running turns relay off and 87a on turning on pumps/fans...

see why 87a stays on? yes pump and all off.. but relay coil inside relay has power... this will kill batt after 2 days... ive parked cars with light/radio kill relay installed with key in ignition... how i know 2 day time..  takes some idiots who borrow cars a few jumps to not do that...

he cannot use the original 0.7v idiot light to power the relay either... burn up the cluster that way... and would screw up his oil light system function too


yes all cars use this relay in some form.... 30, 85,86,87/87a you will find in all fuse boxes... micro.. big.. fused.. knowing when 87 or 87a has power is key to jumping most fuel pump relays... dodge, ford, gm all do... vw is the screwy screwed up one... but its still got 30 and 87... cross and eliminated it is.. those 4 relay numbers really do cross bread in cars... and can help "manipulate" items your testing..

im thinking dodge uses 1-5 vs the 30, 85, 86, 87/87a numbers.. but to look at the schematic on the side.. its still same relay..

[Gizmoman]

OK, here's a thought.
I think I have a vacuum switch in my "box-o-junk". I can "T" it into my vacuum pump hose to the brake booster. Engine on, vacuum on WAIC on. Engine off, vacuum gone, done.

Now all I gotta do is find that switch (I have several boxes of junk)

[CRSMP5]

gas car yes... diesel... no... unless.... your check valve or brake booster has a leak... the vac line should hold residual vacume... gas car has open un valved port on manifold..

so in theory.. once started does not turn off till you take vac out of the brake booster system...

just tap the black wire, +15 power... your overconplicating this... use it to turn on/off the relay.. power the relay off the starter... no voltage drops.. easy to get to if it fails to "hot wire" in the bay.. and works as long as the pump has power.. just i would not use the pump wire unless you add a diode to prevent back feed... id use rear defrost or heater blower as power as they both have a 15 circuit.. and due to that may have a rear wire to tap into.. else wire gets run back from the front..

your trying to do audi enginnering crap to overengineer a simple built in item.. stop... reliable = simple... why its a idi diesel...

and yes thanks for the debate.. if anything if anyone was to ask how/why a relay wanted.. i think it best info on web now...

[libbydiesel]

CRS, you're totally over thinking this.  There are no monsters under the bed.  Going off the alt blue wire to switch a relay is totally fine.  The stock Westfalia aux battery relay does it from the factory and VW uses that same method in other vehicles as well.  Powering a relay would not stress the alternator or the instrument cluster. 

[Gizmoman]

I found the vacuum switch - had to take it apart and clean the contacts as it was a bit corroded. Works great now though.


I really hate messing with the tidy wiring job though, and I think as libby pointed out, it will be fine as is.

CRSMP5, I really appreciate your perspective about the analog/digital, floating ground and all. That said, the relay requires such a small amount of juice to switch plus the fact that VW uses it for several functions makes me think it's not as sensitive as you suggest.

I have bigger issues to deal with right now. The needle on my temp gauge doesn't even show up after I run the engine. Not sure how many of you are familiar with the Vanagon dash cluster but its a real PITA. The blue flexi-trace chingus has gone south (it's over 30 years old) and I have had to solder in tiny jumpers to get stuff working. The temp gauge sits just above the analog clock in the same module and I have to get into it and find out the issue. Trouble is, every time I mess with it, something else quits - uggg!

[CRSMP5]

1st test.. ground the temp wire at the sensor.. should go full hot.. id say bad contact at the sensor.. if it worked long ago and you not touched cluster...

upgrade.. later tach cluster with diesel ce1 mk2 tach is plug and play... in the cluster.. i think same plug.. but may have to change th eplug for the cluster which is simple.. been too long since i did it for someone.. but i did do it.. so know it can be done..

now if you did touch the cluster.. id wiggle its plug before doing anything else..

if the gas gauge and temp gauge quit working you can blame other things.. but if just temp.. its bad contact..

[Gizmoman]

1st test.. ground the temp wire at the sensor.. should go full hot.. id say bad contact at the sensor.. if it worked long ago and you not touched cluster...

upgrade.. later tach cluster with diesel ce1 mk2 tach is plug and play... in the cluster.. i think same plug.. but may have to change th eplug for the cluster which is simple.. been too long since i did it for someone.. but i did do it.. so know it can be done..

now if you did touch the cluster.. id wiggle its plug before doing anything else..

if the gas gauge and temp gauge quit working you can blame other things.. but if just temp.. its bad contact..

Thanks,
I hate to admit the stupid mistake but the wire was "next" to the sensor - just not connected    
The gauge is fine now.  I ran it for less than a minute because I'm trying to keep it from running with "no load" for too long - it did start to climb though. I want to break it in properly under load so I need to get it road worthy before i bring it up to full temp.

Also, I took the liberty of beefing up some of the jumpers on the cluster while I had it out. I also added a nice male/female disconnect to my Tiny Tack so it's easier to remove the cluster entirely.

Again, thanks for the help.

[Gizmoman]

OK, got it running now - starts right up after a short glow and the WAIC pump and fan start after the red light goes out (blue wire signal to a relay).
I got ready for a short road trip so I could put some load on the new rings (my driveway is a bit steep so I'll load it pretty quick).

The temp gauge gets to the center rather quickly and keeps climbing
I shut it off after it got close to 3/4's

The radiator isn't even hot - WTH?

Brand new radiator, new stainless lines, new silicone hoses. I filled it using the libby bong method.

I'm guessing one of three things - 1. I put the new thermostat in backwards (I doubt it though) 2. the new thermostat is not good (I didn't test it) or 3. I have the hoses going to the two pipes under the van backwards.


Here's another shot



In the image below, the radiator port pointing to the ground is going to the left pipe in the photos above (hose from head).



The upper hose to the expansion tank has an aluminum restriction plate inside (1/4" hole on the center).

Here's what I know:
The expansion tank is getting close to 180
The hoses at the water pump are hotter than the one from the head.

Also, I thing the timing is advanced. It starts easily, is a bit too rattley, and when I started to back up the steep driveway it seemed gutless.

Ideas?

[CRSMP5]

i vote air pocket in head...

but does it flow when you loosen the rad bleeder? if its pushing fluid the head should not..

also eliminates the water pump if it squirts...

but the only time i see a gauge do that.. when head has air in it.. pull front hose to see if its full or burps.. bunny with plugged nipple to bottle does that.. and you get lots more air pockets... but ive switched thermostats with your issue after.. and nipple was plugged

cannot put it in upside down.. no room..

[Gizmoman]

i vote air pocket in head...

but does it flow when you loosen the rad bleeder? if its pushing fluid the head should not..

also eliminates the water pump if it squirts...

but the only time i see a gauge do that.. when head has air in it.. pull front hose to see if its full or burps.. bunny with plugged nipple to bottle does that.. and you get lots more air pockets... but ive switched thermostats with your issue after.. and nipple was plugged

cannot put it in upside down.. no room..

Thanks CRS, good to know I didn't (couldn't) put it in upside down - with my luck, I would have.
I'll check the stuff you mentioned. I guess a huge air bubble would keep the flow from getting to the radiator.

I'ts getting dark but I'll see what I can find.

[Gizmoman]

OK, I think it was an air bubble in the system just like you said CRS.
Here's a shot of my gauges, Top is boost, bottom is oil pressure at idle (lower than I wanted but it beats 5 psi).


Here's a shot before the burp.


and one after


There still may be a bit of air somewhere. At least the whole rad is getting hot now though
The fan hasn't kicked on yet which seems odd. I'll have to check the wiring on that as well.

I think my timing is a bit advanced and I need to turn up the boost. So far it's only going to 5 psi. I guess that's OK being a new engine. Maybe I'll hold off till I get some mil;es on it and change the oil.

[libbydiesel]

Did you bleed to system as per the Bentley or use a 'Libby bong'?

[CRSMP5]

just keep the grill out and plan to blead it each time you drive it this week... and takes long time to get that rad up to temp to  run the fan...

test by crossing the wires on the thermo switch on the rad.. if it runs.. get it warmer...

usually takes a good 5 heat cycles to get all the air out.. so we used to run them around a week with wrench in speedo cubby..

ideal blead time is right before the fan kicks on.. most pressure so most dangerous... but you get the most air out.. right after the fan shuts off is least pressure..

one diesel sucked so bad.. since it a brake like bleeder.. a bottlw was bungied to the wiper arm.. and we actually used the bleeder as the fill to get the freeken air out.. piece of tubing between the 2... kinda like radiator overflow.. but it worked..

[libbydiesel]

I just saw where you mentioned filling it.  I usually run it a bit during the fill.  Even still as CRS mentioned, it takes a time or two opening the radiator bleeder before all the air gets out.  It is pretty much self-bleeding, tho.  The coolant hose at the top of the radiator goes *to* the water pump and so even if there is some air in the system it will purge out the the expansion tank and then to the burp tank after a few heat cycles.  You know the system is completely bled when the expansion tank is always completely full and there is still coolant in the burp tank.