1.6/1.9 Franken engine fires up

[malone]

I forgot to ask; are these warm or cold compression #s?

[andy2]

It was tested cold.As for pump timing hopefully chris can confirm that he got it right,I feel he did.We pulled the head off right after doing the test thats when we seen the massive ridge's on the Cyl's.Those pistons sure are sloppy but it should be interesting to see the comp numbers with the 1.6 head on.Also we checked piston potrusion and although the piston rocks around alot we got readings of around .030 thou.So his engine should of had a 1 notch on it not the 3 that was on it all along.He'll be putting the 1 notch on this time for obvious reasons so that will give us a bogus comparison(1.6vs1.9 head,kind of) as it will have a thinner HG on it this time and the 1.6 head.

[chrissev]

I know the compression numbers are low,but you said it didn't smoke before.

nope no smoke at all before.  and it was running a timing belt that I put on myself (and an injection pump that I installed).  It ran fine for 20,000km.  

Are you 100% sure the pump timing is dead on,even the cam timing.After watching the videos,it runs just like the timing is off one tooth.

timing was done properly.  I've put belts on these engines many times.  Pump and crank were lined up, then cam pulley was installed after.  I always check after I instal the cam pulley that the crank is at TDC still and the pump lock pin is centred, and these things were verified.  It ran flawlessly once it warmed up.  Perfectly smooth, no missing or smoking (see final two videos).  When I get your rebuilt head I'll put that on and post some more videos so you can see the difference.  It doesn't smoke like that usually.  It is the 1.9 head that causes it.  No idea why.  Other people who have put 1.9 heads on 1.6 blocks have noticed the same thing (guy in germany 16vsauger mentioned this, also a guy in Ontario with a diesel engine in a scirocco said the same thing.  It's not a mistake on my part or the condition of the engine that is causing it, it's the 1.9/1.6 head/engine combination.    

I see cars all the time,that the customer did his own timing belt,and was off on the timing.When the timing is retarded,you will get smoke like that,and it runs bad until warmed up.Might be one thing to double check if you haven't ripped it apart yet.

It looks like it but believe me, I've done so many belts on these engines, I know how to put them on.  That wasn't the problem.  All I can say is, get yourself a 1.9 head (use the one I'm giving you) a 1.6 block, put them together and see for yourself.  It will smoke and miss when it's cold.

If you feel the rings are shot,now is the time to do it.While it will probably need to be bored if you feel a ridge,you can usually get by with a quick deglaze and rering.Rings are cheap and easy to do,since you already have the head off.

Yeah I'm wondering about this.  The cylinders don't seem round.  Pistons move north-south, but not east-west.  They move quite a bit.  I am wondering if I am wasting time and money buffing and re-ringing an engine in this condition.

[chrissev]

...

[16V-Sauger]

thats exactly why no-one in germany wants to put a 1.9l head on a 1.6l engine  :cry: but you could try to power the glow plugs a few minutes after starting the engine, if your glow plug ecu doesn't have that function.

do you want to use an intercooler?

[chrissev]

thats exactly why no-one in germany wants to put a 1.9l head on a 1.6l engine  :cry: but you could try to power the glow plugs a few minutes after starting the engine, if your glow plug ecu doesn't have that function.

do you want to use an intercooler?

I might use one when I get a 1.6 head on it.  I have another issue to deal with now in that the cylinders don't seem to be round.  Block might need bored and fitted with oversized pistons.  That means a rebuild, would cost around $2000 I think for the parts and machine shop work required.  So that is another issue.  I might try and pick up a rebuilt bottom end cheap and put it in instead.  Oversize pistons are very expensive.

Weird thing is the car started when it was quite cold outside (lowest I've ever got it running at was -23, because that's as cold as it's ever been here since I've had the car) so there must still be some compression.  I have to do another test with a 1.6 head.

[chrissev]

Oversize pistons are very expensive.

Fatmobile has a group buy going for $200.  You probably wouldn't need any further machine work on your block beyond the rebore.  $300 for rod, crank, int shaft brngs, gasket set, and rings.  I come up with approx. $500 in parts to do the bottom end plus the cost of the bore.  Are the machine shops in your area charging $1,500 for a rebore?  Yikes.  What am I missing?

Andrew

who is fatmobile and how do I get in touch with him regarding this group buy?  There are machine shops around here that could do the machining work I need.  Probably would have to get the crank checked to see if it needs machining also.  I'll have to look into this.  The bottom end definately needs rebuilding and if it will cost less than a grand then I should probably just do it.  I have the head off anyway so now is a great time to get it all done and be back on the road with a fresh engine.

[SMOKEYDUB]

I am wondering what is wrong here because i have seen and heard a cold start with your combination(1.9 head-1.6 bottom) and it did not smoke even a little bit. O if your wondering whos car that was it was Dr.D's (went like snot to)

[malone]

I am wondering what is wrong here because i have seen and heard a cold start with your combination(1.9 head-1.6 bottom) and it did not smoke even a little bit. O if your wondering whos car that was it was Dr.D's (went like snot to)

I find it interesting that, despite Dr. Diesel being in the top 10 poster list, he has yet to make a single contribution to the 1.6/1.9 discussion. He is one of the few known who have tried the 1.6/1.9 combination so it'd be nice if he could share his experience.

[fspGTD]

I just ran some compression ratio calculations for a 1.6 block with a 1.9 head and headgasket and wanted to share the results:

Assuming that 25% of the TDC volume is below the head deck on both the stock 1.6 and 1.9 motors, I come up with a compression ratio of 19.7:1 for it.

Since I'm not sure exactly sure how much % of TDC volume is below the head deck on the stock motors, I ran a sensitivity analysis, varying the % between 0%-50%, and found that the 1.6 block/1.9 head and headgasket varied as a result in the range of 18.9:1 - 20.7:1.

If we had more data on where the volume was in the combustion chambers, I could do a more accurate calculation.

[wyldman]

So did you get the head on yet ? How does she run ?

[dennis m king]

i would not be afraid of putting more timing to it. i have my pump notch about 1/8" past mount notch all the time no trouble and i had the dreaded head gasket blow .we took about .015 off to get it flat. and the pistons look nice.expecialy since for over 3 years i use veg oil and gas from the time it is always above 30 deg till below 30 at night.

[moosiah]

I'm interested in this project. 'cause I've got a 1.6 hydro engine sitting in my stash o' stuff pile... I found this in a thread about coatings :
"Much more expensive than other piston/combustion chamber coatings but if it performs as advertised it would be easily worth the $300 cost. It might allow you to run an 18:1 compression motor and still have it start at -25ºC... Very Happy" :idea:
 As someone that grew up driving '30s D4 cats( no , I'm NOT that old ,,we was jus po folks ) w 15-1 compresion ratios I know all about hard starting on cold mornings and I'm reminded that in one of Jake's sae papers that the factory engr's said them selves that the optimum compression for a HI output turbo motor was 18-1 ,,,,,  aside from cold start problems.......
I think it would be interesting to actually take a 1.6 block and head , 1.9 head and CC them and the we'd KNOW exactly what we got here........  anybody got a "extra" 1.9 head to send to Kali  Kenetic Analisys is on my way home every nite.... that's right down the ally from Megacycle cams in san rafael Kenny let me use his shop to port my head for the frankenbunny when I built my first motor....... :wink:

[wyldman]

Just an update on the 1.9L head he had on his car.I have hauled it apart,and there was one bent valve,and one bad valve seat.Head looked clean (was supposed to have been rebuilt recently).There were no obvious signs of impact on the bent valve,so I don't think he did it when he dropped the head on.These problems,combined with worn rings\cylinders are probably what made the cold start smoke so bad.

I rebuilt a 1.6L TD head for him,and it ran fine after it was installed.

[ricosuave]

just to bring this thread back, i found this link and thought id share

http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html