1.6/1.9 Franken engine fires up

[chrissev]

It's not that bad like you described :lol: I think there are some other issues in your setup.

well I'll know soon enough when I slap the 1.6 rebuilt head on it.  I'll see if it smokes as much with that.  With the old 1.6 head on the car, it smoked a small amount at cold start up (in comparasin to what it is doing now anyway, at the time I thought it was a lot of smoke, but now I know what a lot of smoke looks like, the smoke before at cold start up was hardly anything in comparasin to what is happening now).  I saw a pic of your car when you first started it and it looks similar to what I experienced and am currently experiencing.  Once it warms up it doesn't smoke at all, and it misses a bit below 2000 rpm (which I don't like, because I like to just let the clutch out in first gear and not touch the accelerator, and let the car move by itself in traffic jams, can't do that now because it bucks and misses below 2000rpm).  Above 2000rpm it is fine, sounds really cool, and is more powerful than with the 1.6 head.  So you are right about the power.  But my major complaint is the cold start up smoking and missing.  Perhaps your engine with all the mods you've done works better, plus you have a fresh rebuilt block, mine has around 70 k on it.  

will soon have a rebuilt 1.6 head on it so I'll keep you posted as to whether it smokes and misses like it is doing now at cold start up.  That will be the test I think.

Anyway, the 1.9/1.6 combination was interesting, and it makes awesome power at higher rpms, but there are cold start up issues that I can't deal with.  I need a car that starts at -15 and doesn't smoke until it warms up.  I can't deal with that much smoking.

[fatmobile]

Is there some reason you can't use the 1.6 head gasket with this swap.
 Other than the 1.6 head gasket isn't a metal one?
 I still think it wouldn't hurt to advance the timing a little and see what happens to the startup smoke.
 My 1.6 TD used to start rough and smoke white smoke at .039.
 It started up and ran better at .042

[wyldman]

The 1.6L headgasket has a bore that is too small.

I still think it's mostly a compression problem.Mark's motor was probably down on compression,as the rings take a while to seat.Chris's motor is probably getting worn out.Add in the fact the 1.9L head seems to drop compression a bit more,and you have problems.Advancing the timing should help it,but it's not the cure.

I'm still interested to see some compression numbers from these franken engines,as I'm building one for myself.It must be able to start cold,and drive off with little to no smoke.

I'll have to tear into a 1.9L head next week,and find out where the differences lie,and what we can do to fix it.

[935racer]

Something is wrong with your engine, check injectors first, than while you have them out do a compression test followed by a leakdown test is the compression is low. This will tell you all you need to know. MArks engien still smokes a bit but not mcuh at all anymore, the compression has obviosuly gone up after engien break in liek all engines. however his compression will still be a bit low due to the deck modifications. Mark will liekly be bring his car in for a water pump this weekend so I'll do a compression test than but really the #'s won't mean that much.

[chrissev]

Something is wrong with your engine, check injectors first, than while you have them out do a compression test followed by a leakdown test is the compression is low. This will tell you all you need to know. MArks engien still smokes a bit but not mcuh at all anymore, the compression has obviosuly gone up after engien break in liek all engines. however his compression will still be a bit low due to the deck modifications. Mark will liekly be bring his car in for a water pump this weekend so I'll do a compression test than but really the #'s won't mean that much.

Nothing is wrong with the motor.  It has about 70k on it since a rebuild and it works fine.  I have taken a few vids of it, cold and warm running, and will upload them to putfile for you guys to see once they send me my confirmation email (still waiting).  Like I said, cold, tons of smoke and it misfires on all four cylinders.  Warm, runs like a top, sounds awesome, is very powerful above 3000rpm, and has zero issues other than a slight missing/bucking characteristic below 2000rpm (most gasoline engines are like this also so it's no biggie).  If someone could figure out how to make this engine/head combo start up nice and idle when it's cold, it would be an awesome set up.  As it is, the set up needs work and I need my car for a daily driver and can't deal with it as it is.  So the head will be pulled later today and I'm putting a rebuilt 1.6 on it.  I am kind of sad about the whole thing, because the engine is really good when it is warm, but I need a reliable winter vehicle and this engine/head set up doesn't give me that.  Andy is coming over tonight to check compression on the 1.9/1.6 set up so I'll have numbers to give you guys.  Then I'll put on a 1.6 head and he will check it again.  That way you'll have an exact comparasin of the compression numbers on a totally bone stock configuration.  

Chris

PS:  I used rebuilt 155 bar turbo injectors with low mileage on them.  The head is fine and so is the engine, as you will be able to tell quite easily from listening to it run after it has warmed up.  No knocks or bangs, just pure purring smoothness and power.

[type53b_gtd]

I'm coming into this thread a bit late, but what I've read doesn't surprise me.  The compression drop resulting from the increased precombustion chamber insert volume, possibly combined with the 1.6 injection pattern in the 1.9 inserts, is enough to cause cold start smoking and rough running issues with a worn bottom end.  With a new bottom end, these issues are likely to be less noticeable.

I compression tested my 1.9 over 1.6 setup a week ago and was not overly surprised with the results.  A freshly rebuilt 1.9 head, and a very tired bottom end tested at 375 - 380 - 375 - 325 (psi).  Hole number 4 has given me grief in the past, about 80,000 km ago I had issues with single cylinder misfire with cold starts and in a tear down discovered a broken ring on #4.  I put the engine went back together with a different set of used pistons and new rings, and started and ran reliably up until the 1.9 head went on.

The bottom end has in the neighbourhood of .6 million km of abuse (most at the hands of the previous owner... ;-) )

The engine's out on the floor now, after all the abuse the car deserves a little more than a tired old bottom end can give.

Drew

[chrissev]

The head is fine and so is the engine, as you will be able to tell quite easily from listening to it run after it has warmed up.  No knocks or bangs, just pure purring smoothness and power.

I had an '86 that sounded fantastic warmed up.  It had compression of 400, 320, 320, *230*.  Even with a valve leak on the valve you torqued into the piston, I doubt that warmed up you would hear the difference unless the leak was horrendous.  Cold is a different matter.  How about a compression/leakdown test as Andy2 mentioned, before and after head change?  Just for science and to satisfy everyone's curiosity.

Andrew

doing the compression test tonight.  Then I'll do another one when the 1.6 head is on it. Re:  well worn bottom end:  70,000k is NOT well worn for a diesel block.  They'll do 350,000k between rebuilds.  Anyway putting up the vids now so you can all see this thing in action.  It is interesting that despite what people say, my older rebuilt block and 1.9 head combination actually smoked LESS than Malone's set up with fresh rebuilt everything.  From what I read in his posts, he got smoke all the time.  I only get it when the engine is cold.  Once it warms up, no more smoke.  

Chris

[jtanguay]

10-15 minutes to warmup?  Why not use the coolant thermos idea?  Or the hot wax coolant exchanger idea from the BMW?  That would essentially cut down warmup times to around 1-2 minutes rather than putting an extra load on the glowplugs and reduce premature wear on them as well as the electrical system.

I am considering making a system to pump ALL the coolant out of the engine at shut-off.  The only problem with this is oxidation.  If the car was left too long rust might form inside the engine with is not good.  A 2-3 gallon thermos (if i can ever find/make one...)  in the trunk of the car would work quite well.  

As the glowplugs warm up on a cold start, the hot coolant would flow through the head of the engine therefore decreasing the need for the high compression our engines came with originally (hurray for those of us who want to squeeze every last drop out of our diesels)

If the car sits for more than a day without being turned on, a hot coolant heater/circulator could heat the coolant in the thermos with a thermostat so it wouldn't run constantly, but keep the temp up which saves electricity.


Getting back to topic though--I'm really liking the additional info on the 1.9 head/ 1.6 block config.  I need some head work done, and I am considering just putting on a whole new head.  Thanks for sharing all of this info!

[935racer]

Something is not right somewhere. Do a leakdown test while your doing the compressiopn test. Malones smokes more because hius compression is even lower due tot he deck modifications. IF your car takes 10 minutes to warm up witht his setup there IS a problem. I put a head on a guys 1,6 from washington about a month ago he had about 35'000kms on a complete bottomend new everythign adn I put a stock head on, his engine only misses for about 30 seconds.

[jtanguay]

 A 2-3 gallon thermos (if i can ever find/make one...)  in the trunk of the car would work quite well.

You could use a Coleman Cooler in the trunk.  But then, where would you put the BEER?  :roll:

Andrew

hehe.. the beer would definitely be in my stomach while making the thermos..    

to make the thermos i will need two ports and a double wall system (and a vacuum port to suck the air out in between)  then a bit of insulation on the outside to increase efficiency

[chrissev]

Well here's the info you've all been waiting for (I think someone has been waiting, anyway?)  First, the videos:

http://www.zippyvideos.com/7813284654216696/hpim0205/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/1612210594216916/hpim0206/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/4151987784218326/hpim0207/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/5063781964219506/hpim0209/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/7079859054219666/hpim0204/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/4347824434219816/hpim0211/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/1763340214220086/hpim0212/

I know there's a lot of them.  I have a digital camera.  Every time I stop it, it starts a new video.  They're all really short.  The last two are the performance of the engine after it has warmed up.  The other ones are before warm up.  Keep in mind this is an older engine.  PO claimed rebuild, but I'm not sure about whether this is true.  The cylinders have quite a big lip at the top and the pistons move around some.  Still, it ran.

Next, compression numbers:

300, 300, 300, 320.  Abysmal.  Those are the numbers we got.  Around 180 less than the engine needs to run properly.  No wonder it smoked so much.  I will post compression numbers from when the 1.6 head is put on it when I get the job done and Andy comes up again with his compression gauge.  That should give a pretty accurate idea of how much compression is actually lost when a 1.9 head is put on a 1.6 engine.  

Chris

[malone]

Interesting videos.. and the compression #s sure look low. Definitely lower than mine with a bad cam.

I have my gf's digital camera with me but need to find the battery charger. I will take videos of my cold start smoke.

[ricosuave]

thats really interesting...

but, im still wondering about the warm factor.

does the car have a block heater?  can you test it when its been on for a few hours to see if it smokes as bad?

i know the compression looks bad too, but i just wonder if its liveable...

i dont know much about rebuilding, but would the head gasket thickness being thinner help you?

LOVE the sound though, so deep and growly!

thanks!

[fspGTD]

Thanks for the vids, Chris!  That smoking problem is pretty nasty there when it's cold.  But it's amazing how clean it gets when it warms up!

[wyldman]

I know the compression numbers are low,but you said it didn't smoke before.

Are you 100% sure the pump timing is dead on,even the cam timing.After watching the videos,it runs just like the timing is off one tooth.

I see cars all the time,that the customer did his own timing belt,and was off on the timing.When the timing is retarded,you will get smoke like that,and it runs bad until warmed up.Might be one thing to double check if you haven't ripped it apart yet.

If you feel the rings are shot,now is the time to do it.While it will probably need to be bored if you feel a ridge,you can usually get by with a quick deglaze and rering.Rings are cheap and easy to do,since you already have the head off.