Author Topic: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor  (Read 15742 times)

Reply #45March 21, 2013, 06:20:28 pm

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2013, 06:20:28 pm »
The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.

Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?

IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...

This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.

Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy.  That is WHY IDI engines were produced.  When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use.  Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.

The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.

diesel mekken has built an inline pump that went on to a tdi pulling tractor, he says it pulls to over 10,000 rpm.  i used to think the same thing but now i am not so sure.  a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.

a TDI spinning 10 grand? yea, no...

sorry, but i dont believe that without video proof..

specially when the hottest of hot are only running like 7000rpm redline..

you sure? 10000rpms is B Series territory... maybe it wasnt 10 grand?

a stock pump with a gov mod will spin higher than 5500... mine spins 6 grand on a stock 9mm pump, turned all the way up..
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Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #46March 21, 2013, 06:47:57 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2013, 06:47:57 pm »
mine spins 6 grand on a stock 9mm pump, turned all the way up..

why spin up so far?? You gain noooooootthhhiiiinnnnggggg

Reply #47March 21, 2013, 08:11:24 pm

RabbitJockey

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2013, 08:11:24 pm »
10 grand is what he said its a heavily modified engine.  i find it hard to believe myself, but here it is.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=294625720642725

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=282740261831271

goran says

"Ok Trying again, from 1,6L I have done 177whp, A norweigian car that after this winter goes up in dyno again. Pump is 11 mm rotor, 110cc of fuel, I have a video of it on my FB here somwhere laste year. The highest rew is probably the 1,9TDI engine in a Dutch minipuller, rews around 10000rpm, special camshaft, pistons, Bosch A-serie pump with strong springs in it."
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 08:22:35 pm by RabbitJockey »
01 Jetta TDI 100% stock daily
81 Rabbit:TDI-M ported head, Frank06 cam, PD intake, hybrid T3 turbo, Renault intercooler, Syl20 11mm pump, light weight fw, and yellow California Clutch clutch kit

Reply #48March 21, 2013, 08:43:22 pm

RabbitJockey

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2013, 08:43:22 pm »
had a friend with a 1.9td,with a maxxed out 9mm pump.
he changed to a 10mm(not a 11mm!)  and he needed to make the fuel screw almost stick out to match the same power levels...
also,at high rpm a bigger plunger will benefit in eficiency in burn as it will inject more fuel in the same time.
a 9mm could inject the same fuel but most times out of time resulting in smoke but no power.

on a modded engine tdi will win in reliability,but on my head its just because IDI´s investigation stoped many years ago.
~with the right materials and developement i think those problems would be over.

but i think its like 2 stroke engines...
they are smokey,noisier and eat more fuel but damn!they are fun lol

some factors make 2 stroke engines research stop in favor of 4 stroke and i guess its very hard to invert that tendency,just like IDI engines...

yes this is very true about the investigation of idi, but when it comes down to it the tdi is easier and cheaper to manufacture i am sure, and with all the latest technology it is far ahead of did tech.  i have done some reading on newer prechamber designs that kept the heat in the combustion chamber better.  but i think a head and pistons that are easy to cast or forge ended up being the route of manufactures rather than a head that needed extra machining and special metals.  plus less reliable due to precup dropping, although they don't seem to do this from normal use.
01 Jetta TDI 100% stock daily
81 Rabbit:TDI-M ported head, Frank06 cam, PD intake, hybrid T3 turbo, Renault intercooler, Syl20 11mm pump, light weight fw, and yellow California Clutch clutch kit

Reply #49March 21, 2013, 08:58:06 pm

theman53

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2013, 08:58:06 pm »
I think the lack of juice in my TDI is the tiny VNT 15. I don't like instant boost and a level off of power. I think a newer design waste gated turbo would be better suited for my liking. But I am not spending the coin on it to do it.

I agree as one who spent around 1,600.00 in my 1.6 IDI engine that dropped a precup. I think the TDI is the better design. I just don't like the way it performs with my setup. I would love to stick a 30 year old T3 on it and see what it could do. I am just kind of pissy that spending over 1,000.00 in upgrades to the TDI it doesn't absolutely whip the crap out of the IDI that is 3/4 its displacement.

Reply #50March 21, 2013, 10:04:10 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2013, 10:04:10 pm »
The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.

Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?

IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...

This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.

Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy.  That is WHY IDI engines were produced.  When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use.  Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.

The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.

diesel mekken has built an inline pump that went on to a tdi pulling tractor, he says it pulls to over 10,000 rpm.  i used to think the same thing but now i am not so sure.  a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.

Ok.  I'm just relaying what I've read in Bosch books on diesel engine management. 

Reply #51March 21, 2013, 10:15:27 pm

8v-of-fury

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2013, 10:15:27 pm »
Gotta pay to play, its newer tech.. clearly gonna be more.

Reply #52March 21, 2013, 11:51:40 pm

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2013, 11:51:40 pm »
The IDIs have a greater RPM range, tho, so it evens out and all else equal, they will make the same power.

Do they though? Why would a 1Z/AHU/ALH not spin the same 6000 rpms that limits the Bosch VE pump?

IDI will burn 10-15% more fuel for the same power, tho, and drop pre-chambers every so often...

This is enough for me to wave good-bye and never look back ;) haha.

Yes, due to the different combustion properties of the IDI and TDI, the rpm range is expanded for the IDI at the expense of fuel economy.  That is WHY IDI engines were produced.  When the rabbit diesel came out, DI engines had a hard time making it past 2,000 rpms making them unsuitable for automotive use.  Changes in injection technology have massively increased the DI rpm range but it is still more limited than the IDIs.

The pre-chamber issue is a big deal to me as well.

diesel mekken has built an inline pump that went on to a tdi pulling tractor, he says it pulls to over 10,000 rpm.  i used to think the same thing but now i am not so sure.  a guy in hungary sent me a video of a buggy with a 1.6tdi built with tdi pistons and head with a 1.5 crank, he buillt the pump for it, he says it revs to 5500.

Ok.  I'm just relaying what I've read in Bosch books on diesel engine management. 

Until he told me that I would have never thought it was true searching my old posts would put me in the same seat as you
01 Jetta TDI 100% stock daily
81 Rabbit:TDI-M ported head, Frank06 cam, PD intake, hybrid T3 turbo, Renault intercooler, Syl20 11mm pump, light weight fw, and yellow California Clutch clutch kit

Reply #53March 23, 2013, 08:24:11 am

carrizog60

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2013, 08:24:11 am »
wont the chambers droping be a past problem if they did continued the developement?
here opel 1.7td engine(isuzu) are used and there are many that pull serious power,without that problem.
have seen them going against e36 M3 and with so they can put out power and mantain some reliability...
vw golf gti G60--vw passat 1.9td gt2052v
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Reply #54March 23, 2013, 08:32:19 am

MJF

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2013, 08:32:19 am »
Dropping prechamber has nothing to do with power.
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Reply #55March 23, 2013, 09:18:15 am

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2013, 09:18:15 am »
Dropping prechamber has nothing to do with power.
.
Please do tell. I think it is a heat brought on by fueling brought on by the desire for power. I am interested in how it happens.

Reply #56March 23, 2013, 10:21:45 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2013, 10:21:45 am »
I certainly believe that pre-chambers crack depending on how hot the combustion temps get which depends on how hard they are run.  I have had the opportunity to pull apart quite a few higher mileage engines 1.6TDs.  The condition of the pre-chamber inserts seems to be directly in line with that belief.  Engines installed in vanagons usually have more cracks in the pre-chambers and head at 100,000 miles than the same stock engine in a golf/jetta will have at 300,000 miles.  I pulled a head of a 1.6TD vanagon recently that had a documented 70,000 miles.  There was fairly severe cracking in all four pre-chambers forming a T across the insert and there were cracks running from the two inner exhaust valves to the pre-chambers.  ECOdiesel engines tend to have no cracks in the pre-chambers and little to no cracking between the valves.

Reply #57March 24, 2013, 08:12:20 am

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2013, 08:12:20 am »
I certainly believe that pre-chambers crack depending on how hot the combustion temps get which depends on how hard they are run.  I have had the opportunity to pull apart quite a few higher mileage engines 1.6TDs.  The condition of the pre-chamber inserts seems to be directly in line with that belief.  Engines installed in vanagons usually have more cracks in the pre-chambers and head at 100,000 miles than the same stock engine in a golf/jetta will have at 300,000 miles.  I pulled a head of a 1.6TD vanagon recently that had a documented 70,000 miles.  There was fairly severe cracking in all four pre-chambers forming a T across the insert and there were cracks running from the two inner exhaust valves to the pre-chambers.  ECOdiesel engines tend to have no cracks in the pre-chambers and little to no cracking between the valves.

do you think its because the smaller ip and no aneroid? or better design/ materials?
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Reply #58March 24, 2013, 11:04:21 am

libbydiesel

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2013, 11:04:21 am »
I think it's just because of less fuel and lower EGTs.

Reply #59April 25, 2013, 03:10:30 pm

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Re: Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2013, 03:10:30 pm »
Perhaps better dynamic advance would help keep the temps down, and thus reduce the thermal stress on the inserts?

Would custom inserts with larger openings / enlarged bowl help at all, or is it entirely a materials game? Might lowering the CR help? Anyone know of possible ceramic inserts that could be adapted, or if anyone could custom make them?

Currently have the head off my dad's '86 jetta to replace the HG, and the #4 insert looks like it was getting ready to grenade--cracked almost all the way across and bulging too, so naturally inserts are suddenly an interest of mine...
New inserts from Rockauto are on the way, but still quite interested in keeping the precup disaster from happening on a future power build I'm slowly putting together....

Perhaps it should just be a standard maintenance check to yank the head every x number of miles and check the inserts for cracking, at least on power builds that get run hard often?

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