Torn between mtdi and 1.6/1.9 Frankenmotor

[monomer]

Greetings all.


I have a rather nice mk1 that I plan on autocrossing, and daily driving. When I was young and dumb I started a 1.6 build, not really knowing of the Mtdi.

I currently moonlight in a well-know local TDI shop, so coming across an ALH is easy enough. Reallying like the TDI as a powerplant.


Problem is, I have a rather large assortment of 1.6 parts collected. From what I can tell, an mtdi is the way to go for the power I want to see, as the 1.6 is rather weak in comparison. At this point it might be cheaper to sell off all the 1.6 parts and drop in an mtdi, keeping the cable 020 trans (I have spares...) and sourcing a proper pump from on here.


I guess I'm just looking for some opinions before I unload stuff and make the call. Also, what kind of power/torque do people make - A quick search didn't turn up much.

[bbob203]

Mtdi all the way

[theman53]

What are your power goals?

Personally, I think that if you have all the 1.6 parts do it. If you didn't have all the parts I would say M TDI. I have found once you have the parts you never get close to what you want or what you have in them when you go to sell.

[monomer]

What are your power goals?

Personally, I think that if you have all the 1.6 parts do it. If you didn't have all the parts I would say M TDI. I have found once you have the parts you never get close to what you want or what you have in them when you go to sell.

But,

I might go all out on the 1.6, push the engine wayyy past what it's intended for and completely blow up 3k in parts.

or, I could do an mtdi and be happy with power/torque without pushing it.



I think I just need to find someone that wants the lot of parts.

[monomer]

What are your power goals?

what can an mtdi do?


I want torque down low, that's most important.

[vanbcguy]

What are your power goals?

what can an mtdi do?

I want torque down low, that's most important.

An M-TDI can do pretty much anything you want it to - your goals are the important thing.  I'm looking to build a bruiser of an M-TDI that will be running on the north side of 175HP but there are tradeoffs with that - to get what I want I'm going to need a fairly large turbo that won't spool anywhere near as soon as a smaller one and I'm probably going to have to put up with some smoke till it is spun up.

Your turbo choice will make the biggest difference in terms of low end torque.  A smaller K03 or a VNT15 will start spooling just off of idle, providing you with plenty of low end and absolutely no smoke, though it will limit you at higher RPMs.  VNT turbos are awesome for low end though you need to come up with some sort of control system for them.

The 1.6TD is a great engine but it takes a lot to get it over about 115HP.  The stock turbo is pretty laggy too and doesn't really come on until 2200-2500 RPM.  Again though, if you put a small turbo on it you can have plenty of low end grunt.  More displacement will always win in the end though, that's why I'm going to an M-TDI myself.  It'll get better mileage, have more power and start better cold - what's not to like?

[monomer]

turbo I have on hand is a t25 garett, 52 trim.


 I think I'll go mtdi.

[theman53]

What are your power goals?

what can an mtdi do?

I want torque down low, that's most important.

An M-TDI can do pretty much anything you want it to - your goals are the important thing.  I'm looking to build a bruiser of an M-TDI that will be running on the north side of 175HP but there are tradeoffs with that - to get what I want I'm going to need a fairly large turbo that won't spool anywhere near as soon as a smaller one and I'm probably going to have to put up with some smoke till it is spun up.

Your turbo choice will make the biggest difference in terms of low end torque.  A smaller K03 or a VNT15 will start spooling just off of idle, providing you with plenty of low end and absolutely no smoke, though it will limit you at higher RPMs.  VNT turbos are awesome for low end though you need to come up with some sort of control system for them.

The 1.6TD is a great engine but it takes a lot to get it over about 115HP.  The stock turbo is pretty laggy too and doesn't really come on until 2200-2500 RPM.  Again though, if you put a small turbo on it you can have plenty of low end grunt.  More displacement will always win in the end though, that's why I'm going to an M-TDI myself.  It'll get better mileage, have more power and start better cold - what's not to like?

I think you could do 115 with a stock TD pump with a gov. mod and turned up fuel.

Again, what are your goals and I could tell you a better guess at what would be better. You will never get the money you will want out of your parts.

[8v-of-fury]

You will never get the money you will want out of your parts.

Never do, but losses must happen sooner or later..

I third (or maybe fourth) the recommendation for the M-TDI. Take the engine in COMPLETELY stock form for instance, by just adding the mechanical pump and adding a manual boost controller to allow more boost you are already out of the realm of the 1.6 for torque.

I have had all four D engines in an mk1 within the last 2 years.. 1.6D, 1.6TD, 1.9AAZ and 1.9M-TDI AHU. The difference between my M-TDI and the 1.6 TD is not even comparable..

I had the 1.6 boosting 20psi (no inter-cooler) and the 9mm pump physically turned up as far as it would go with the gov mod. Nothing spectacular, newer cars would still walk it no problem.

I currently have my m-tdi with no inter cooler and the tiny k03 boosting about 15psi. I have the 11mm pump turned up pretty far with no gov mod yet (dont need it as I never go above 3500rpm..). I can take most cars and make them look like they are not trying, from a dead start or a rolling start (way better with roll starts as traction is less of an issue.. lol). All of this with no smoke, boost from 1300.. and all the torque I could ask for. (I commonly tow 1500lbs with it..)

You want torque, the 1.9 DI engines will always prevail.. I wouldn't even consider the 1.6 as an option to be honest.

[CRSMP5]

  me tdi-m all day.. precups is only reason why.. for cost of build.. pre cup fall out issue... im tdi all way...

now do not get me wrong... a few here know of a "idi" build im bout to do.. im going to do basic things and test as normal... need to buy a gopro.. then say lastt 30 or so days of season my goal is to lift the head off the block..

im going to have little in the proto set up im wanting to make... under 200 in the head/block bolted together needing turbo/pump.. im adding nos and propain to it.. serious im going to lift its head off the block... i want to see what it can take and what to break... i will own a gopro for this vid... then after i scatter it.. ill tell all online what i built.. if the idea works.. will be sweet for idi people..

me expecting high rev.. low comp for lots of boost.. 15 year old plan i never got too.. now i owns the stuff to do it... thinking bolted into jackrabbit = win.. fast diesel im going to blow up on purpose... gopro!! required.. my design secret to 4 here.. they all wanna see too.. but me guini pig.. just may be year.. else ill test in my 84 coupe this summer w/junk hood.. im going to lift its head i swear... jack rabbit design = better gopro vid.. why im kinda want to wait..

p.s. the 4 who know what im up to donated the parts to build it except gaskets.. my ideas suck.. i figure vid of broken = win forthose involved.. will be u tube king..

why the idi proto engine.... cost.. all im doing is gaskets to test.. no machine work, bearings or anthing.. my idea is off a tested one back in 92ish... it was a fail... but in those discussions i had a idea that at that time cost was way wrong.. now.. cost = win.. theory in end = less then 1.6 idi current dipped in gold prices.. and tdi bend over price.. why i need to know how it can fail.. so lifting its head..  

[8v-of-fury]

I wouldn't even consider the 1.6 as an option to be honest.

IN FACT! thinking back on this.. There is nothing about the 1.6 that is in any way close to, or better than the 1.9 TDI engines.

Proof??

Volkswagen did away with the 1.6 IDI for a reason.. The TDI was their 6th/7th generation diesel engine.. They worked the bugs out completely by the ALH, and then went back to the drawing board and frigged it all up! 1Z/AHU/ALH, are some of the best engines ever designed.. in history.

*** 6th/7th generation being chronologically as follows;

• 1.5 IDI 11mm block, mechanical
• 1.6 IDI 11mm block
• 1.6 IDI adding 12mm block
• 1.6 IDI adding hydraulic
• 1.9 IDI
• 1.9 DI (1Z/AHU)
• 1.9 DI (ALH)

[theman53]

This is an IDI board for the most part that I don't want to see die. If he had to go buy the entire setup I would agree that M is the way to go, but I like the old school diesel stuff and he has the 1.6 already.
I have an 01 alh with Malone stage 2 installed. My Giles 9mm pump equiped mk2 jetta would run circles around it. The main difference in the way it pulls is the turbo. K24 is a little laggy but I would be making 5psi at 1700 RPM or so and 7-10 by that 2200rpm number you guys said it takes to start lighting. The 01 VNT is instant and I really don't like it being instant, but then it pulls great to 3,000RPM and that is it. I like the bigger turbos period.

My thinking is keep all your 1.6 stuff add a Giles pump, run it for a couple years and then sell it if you want the M swap. You will get about the same ammount of cash if not the same exactly if you sold it all now. This is why I asked about your power goals, I don't think 200hp in the 1.6 is all that difficult. 175hp easier yet. 150hp I think could be done with a ported head and stock turbo, probably Giles pump, but I bet a stock pump could get you there smokier. Anyhow, run the giles pump for a year or 3 and you will get almost the money out of it as what you paid, so are you really out anything? Just thinking out loud and guessing but this is basically my answer if you would have answered my question of goals.

Having lost a precup in an otherwise healthy awesome engine I agree with CRSMP5 in the precup being the main reason. I like my 01 for its comfort, AC, fuel economy (almost identical between this and the IDI though) and the fact that it cannot explode due to precup falling out. I do not like it for performance reasons.

[8v-of-fury]

I like my 01 for its comfort, AC, fuel economy. I do not like it for performance reasons.

Stock ALH against a heavily modified 1.6TD?? Hardly comparable. Do all the same mods you did to the 1.6 to the 1.9 and watch it leave the 1.6 standing still.

[theman53]

It is not stock. It is .216 and stage 2. It is almost the same ammount of $$$ spent *just engine upgrades* in both. I had maybe 750.00 more in the 1.6. Then I had to do a clutch upgrade for the TDI as it wouldn't handle it stock, add another 469.00. Per dollar spent I would say that the 1.6 I built vs the TDI is no comparison, but not in favor of the TDI by any means. Yes eventually I think the TDI would be better, maybe the M TDI much better??? But per dollar spent, NO, not unless you find a "cheap" TDI to start. I had TONS of $$$ in my MK2 but when you figure just the engine, I didn't have that much. If it were running already before I started much much less.

If he DIDN"T ALREADY HAVE the 1.6 I would agree with you. Not for performance, but the precup issue only. I again say, what are the goals as it is pointless to say what is better until I know what is the end of it all.

[CRSMP5]

8v.. before his stage 2.. something like 1.5 he followed my 81 na coupe.. lets just say he was impressed i could keep out of his way.. but mine 1/2 the weight... mk4 is a pig vs mk1... and gutted mk1 silly vs seats.. kill sound deadning and stuff a na mk1 is fun.. so much more nimble..

i agree this is a idi board.. with no idi it would be dead... but same token its a idi board.. no others out there per say.. way many more 1.6 idi out there then id.. of a single design...

1.5 and 1.6 share lots.. with mods heads can be swapped.. things like rods/pistonsscrank denote it..

aaz, 1z and ahu.. same parts again.. swap a head, pistons and build tdi or aaz..

then you have...
alh.. 4 years used?
pd what 3-4 years used.. junk engines they are...
then current suck pump 11-13k to fix bs with 35mpg.. buy honda for more imo.. why...

so of all the designs.. idi used longest.. mix n match more.. tdi.. no mix/match.. what you can do to one varies hard left for the others too..

look at the pd.. junk cams.. look at all the years of diesel pre that.. they did not eat cams... have oil pump drive issues.. the older *** better... but now worn, value is stupid... i used to buy rot free mk1s for under 300$ cannot buy a blown up sitting in pile idi for that now..