!979 Rabbit Diesel Need help!

[ORCoaster]

The SKU number is the same but I have a bunch more adapters and parts in mine.  And many here caution that this type of device gives us low readings as the valve is poorly located and engine has to pump up the gauge more than it should.  Search some for Schroeder valve and you might find it.

On another thread here Libby and I just told the guy to crank in that screw on the left side of the pump by a 1/4 to 1 full turn.  That is the fuel screw or smoke screw as some call it.  With you getting smoke I don't think that is needed at this time.  You seem to have fuel getting into the engine. 

The problem you describe with the starter sounds like poor connections on the starter to me.  Since you get it to work with a hot wire.  I have put my glow plugs over to a relay but the starter no.  I don't have my Bentley or my car with me right now but isn't there a starter relay up on the fuse box?  I know there is a glow plug relay.  You have to really get your head up in there with a good light to read those id marks.  Maybe your stock wiring is shabby.  Could be the starter switch. 

And cranking the engine with a jump isn't going to prevent it from starting.  Unless the battery or charging system is weak, like 10 volts. 

call it a night.  What is your local time anyway?  I don't see a location for you yet in the profile. 

Good luck with it tomorrow.  You will be 20 lbs lighter when this thing gives it mighty varrroomm.   

[745 turbogreasel]

I have some scattered input here in no real order.
Ignition- there is the harebrained relay system that makes you have to turn the key off before you can try to start again.
-I guess it's a start inhibit relay, could be part of the problem.
i know whenever I'd let my caddy sit, water would go down the backside of the fusebox, and fill all the relays, and I'd have to pull the lids off and dump em out before half my stuff would work.  wiggle inspect, and clean.

Confirm with a test light or meter the fuel shutoff so has power in both start and run positions.
Run a wire from B+ to the solenoid if in doubt.   Does it click lightly w/ power? it should. with this powered, the engine is 'on' even if the rest of the car is not, and it wont turn off with the key.

you have the old type  pump gear with 2 small holes.  while correctly timed, the pump can be 180 out internally.  only test I know is retime with the pin in the other hole, but you are probably getting pretty adept at this exercise by now.

I see you have some clear line, what is the flow in and out like?  direction? bubbles?  did you prime the pump with some kind of fuel? If it's hard to see, you can pull the fuel filter off, and dump a bit of ATF in  to make it nice and red.

I find after a long hiatus, or an out of fuel event, an otherwise fine diesel often has trouble getting enough cranking speed to purge air and prime everything, but a brisk 3rd gear(key on) drag behind a truck  takes care of it without smoking 3 sets of batteries.  Battery, jumper cable size, and jump car battery size all play a big role, the helo kitty cables you found in your girlfriends trunk won't cut it in the diesel world.

Glows- I don't see how you are activating or testing them.  do they or the light work with the key?  if so, good news for ignition switch, but not necessarily for the safety mechanism I mentioned earlier.   If you activate them, battery voltage should drop noticeably if you have a decent way of measuring it.  cycle them twice, and you can detect it with an IR pyrometer pointed at the connector if they work.  Super rough test- undo the big glow fuse on the firewall (has been checked I hope), and hit the downstream(to GP) terminal with a jumper cable from battery +...if it doesn't spark a little, they are all dead.

I'm a bad person, some times in these cases, I use starter fluid NEver use starting fluid on a diesel.  it's easy to get wrong, but not so hard to do right.
1 unplug the glow relay or fuse.
2 while cranking the engine, spray one puff tangental to the air inlet snorkel ,a few inches outboard(so a tiny whiff of fog gets sucked in).  Continue to crank another 20 seconds.  No-go, repeat, but shoot 2 puffs across the bow.
3 still no love, and want to take some risks(ranging from burned out glow plugs to broken rings and a dead engine)  hook the glow plugs back up, run them 2 seconds, and go back to step 2.  alternate; run the glows a full cycle, then just wait 40+ sec before you try to start the car, and you can try progressively shorter increments.
If it starts, you will likely have to give some throttle to keep it running till it purges and smooths out.
If it fires, and makes  a painful knocking noise, you used waaay too much spray.
Despite the dire warnings, I've yet to fry a motor using the stuff, and we've been starting our 7.3 dump truck this way about 5 years.
Running ether and glows at the same time seems to kill the glow plugs pretty fast though.

[R.O.R-2.0]

OK,  now this is going to freak you out.  Pull the pump all the way towards the front of the car.  Some experience the same result as you with a pump that is advanced too far.

I trust you have cracked the top of the injector nuts enough to release any air stored up in the lines.  But the pump holds on to air like Mother Hubbard clutches nickels.  It might need to get running to clear it out. 

Duh?  That puts you in a Catch 22 right?  No, some go to the extreme of pull starting the beast,  Mostly because their battery is low and can't really crank it the way it should.  You do have a good battery and all connections on both grounds and positive points, like the starter are cleaned up? 

the PUMP is circulating fuel the entire time the car is running. the inlet is fairly low on the pump. the OUTLET is THE HIGHEST POINT OF THE PUMP.. if there is any air getting in the pump, within 5 seconds, its pushed out the outlet line, back to the tank.. the pump never collects any air. the air goes in, finds its way to the top, since bubbles float, and then out she goes, back to the tank..

please quit telling people that air is getting trapped in their pumps. it is not. air does not get trapped, or build up. if there is constant air in the pump, then there is a constant air leak somewhere in the system. it may get worse as you run the car as well. my Jetta had an air leak that was IMPOSSIBLE to find. and it only leaked air once it was warmed up..

FWIW, you can PRIME the pump without running the engine..

[vw-tim]

okay im gonna try and replay to all you guys in same post see if i can do it and not forget anything haha

with the diesel compressor tester i posted i think maybe they changed the package from what you got? i think i might still go try and pick it up and give it a try hopefuly it will work... and when i search for the " Schroeder valve " ones it comes up with testers that are like 100-200 dollars way more then i can spend right now.

i did swap out IP so now its not smoking or like almost starting up like the other one was so maybe ill just try and push it towards the engine and then back away hopefully ill find that sweet spot! ha

also i came up with this idea on the pump adjustment i havent tryed it yet but i was thinking last night how the center sproket part is constantly in position and how the pump can just move front to back soo i was thinkng can i loosen all four screws that hold it on and keep the belt tension on and loosen the fuel lines then re position the pump and just tighten like one screw down and tighten the fuel lines back on and then crank the engine and see if it finds that spot it likes? and if not then loosen the single screw bump it a bit and then retiten i just dont want to mess anything up if for just temporaryly have it held on by one screw... do you think thats okay to do or atleast try?

yeah ill look into the starter switch and all the wiring in a bit when i do turn the key to START i do hear the relays click the 52 relay big black box on the fuse box and then this other bar looking box... ill snap some pics of it later today

i live down in California so its like 10:41 am right now i cant wait to get this thing running gonna be such a relief! ha

okay the stop fuel switch on the IP works great ive tested it with voltmeter and works how its suppose to we can rule that out

how i brought fuel to the pump or well how i primed the system i took alittle hose from the out banjoo and took my vacum and sucked fuel up so it filled the fuel filter and then ran down the line and filled the IP so fuel is there

how i tested the glow plugs to make sure they are good was i took each of them out and i hooked them up to a battery holding the glow plug with pliers and then connected ground and + wires to it and they all lit up red hot!

i might try the drag behind the truck but i think my battery is giving it enough i also have this charger hooked up to it for engine starts i hook that to the battery and hit the engine start switch on the charger so i think it provided more then enough to get this cranking properly

maybe if im desperate ill try the starting fluid

well im gonna try and pick up a diesel compressor tester and then i think im gonna mess with the IP position ill report back

Thank you all for such good and fast information really helping me learn a lot! appreciate it!

[745 turbogreasel]

Comp tester
If you're near Santa Cruz, I have one.

Timing
Imo it's not that sensitive from a 'will it start' perspective.
no smoke = no fuel.  stuck vanes in the transfer pump or a varnished in place control collar?
I'd tighten  at least 2 bolts, and leave a wobble extension and whatever socket on the PITA one that's pinched behind the pump

yeah ill look into the starter switch and all the wiring in a bit when i do turn the key to START i do hear the relays click the 52 relay big black box on the fuse box and then this other bar looking box... ill snap some pics of it later today

click only means the control side of the relay is working, the switched side must be checked  as well
stop solenoid gets power, and are usually problem free, but I'd verify that something in it moves as well.
also maybe clean your out bolts on both pumps, it will give you a snapshot of how much crap is flying around in there (should be ~none).  ther is a screen and a tiny hole inside the bolt.  Said bolt incidentally must not be swapped with the in bolt, out is labeled and will restrict the heck out of your fuel supply if  on the wrong side, have a look.

Any bubbles or flow observed while/after cranking?
Running from a fuel can eliminates much of the supply side as a source of problems, though if the vac pump worked, it's probably OK.
return to a jug will bypass blockage on that side, and give you an idea how much fuel is moving through.  A quart will take over a minute to fill at idle

Glow Test is optimal, I assume you also checked for power at the bus bar?

i might try the drag behind the truck but i think my battery is giving it enough i also have this charger hooked up to it for engine starts i hook that to the battery and hit the engine start switch on the charger so i think it provided more then enough to get this cranking properly

When you have a cascading effect of 5 little problems,  The OEM starter may never crank it fast enough, but a few minutes at 2500 RPM will start even the weakest of motors.


RE Air Trap:
I'm going to take a militant middle ground stance on this.
air in the injector pipes may become trapped as it is compressible, and if it compresses rather than squirting out the injector, it re-expends to fill just the space it took before, .002% that slips into the leakby pipes.  this is further exacerbated by one or more vanes in the transfer pump  being sticky and/or worn.
I find it takes at least 30 seconds to purge, and some pumps will never do it with the injectors hooked up.

[libbydiesel]

i did swap out IP so now its not smoking or like almost starting up like the other one was so maybe ill just try and push it towards the engine and then back away hopefully ill find that sweet spot! ha

If you are not getting the puffs of smoke with the new pump, then you may not be getting fuel to the injectors.  Confirm fuel at the injectors by loosening the unions and then cranking for a little bit.  The nuts should get wet.

also i came up with this idea on the pump adjustment i havent tryed it yet but i was thinking last night how the center sproket part is constantly in position and how the pump can just move front to back soo i was thinkng can i loosen all four screws that hold it on and keep the belt tension on and loosen the fuel lines then re position the pump and just tighten like one screw down and tighten the fuel lines back on and then crank the engine and see if it finds that spot it likes? and if not then loosen the single screw bump it a bit and then retiten i just dont want to mess anything up if for just temporaryly have it held on by one screw... do you think thats okay to do or atleast try?

 

You could take that approach, but it is not the most direct.  All else being right, the engine WILL start and run with the injection pump mark lined up with the bracket.

okay the stop fuel switch on the IP works great ive tested it with voltmeter and works how its suppose to we can rule that out

Did you test it on the new pump?  The real test is checking for fuel at the injectors as mentioned above.

how i tested the glow plugs to make sure they are good was i took each of them out and i hooked them up to a battery holding the glow plug with pliers and then connected ground and + wires to it and they all lit up red hot!

It's good that you tested the individual glow plugs and that they all work, but did you test the glow plug circuit?  Is power getting to the plugs?

maybe if im desperate ill try the starting fluid

Don't bother with starting fluid.  I've been working on these diesels for 20 years and have never had to use starting fluid and there isn't a single situation I've been in where it would have benefited me in the least.  Solve the actual problem.  Using starting fluid is at best a band-aid and at worst, the reason you had to rebuild your engine.

air in the injector pipes may become trapped as it is compressible, and if it compresses rather than squirting out the injector, it re-expends to fill just the space it took before, .002% that slips into the leakby pipes.  this is further exacerbated by one or more vanes in the transfer pump  being sticky and/or worn.
I find it takes at least 30 seconds to purge, and some pumps will never do it with the injectors hooked up.

Provided the injection pump is functional and actually pushing fuel in the high pressure portion of the pump, it will purge the air from the injection lines.  The high pressure pump positively displaces fuel into the lines.  The air may compress, but it cannot re-expand because the delivery valve closes and the delivery port in the distributor head closes.  The space left in the injection line gets smaller and smaller until the air is gone.  The worst case scenario I've seen with a functional pump is where the max fuel screw was too far out and the accelerator had no effect on how much fuel was delivered.  Even at low idle quantity, the air was still purged from the lines in about 30-40 seconds of cranking.  Usually with the pump tuned correctly and the accelerator floored, it takes less than 20 seconds.  I have timed both with the unions closed and the unions open at the injectors and it does not take any longer if the unions are closed.  

[vw-tim]

okayyy so i think i discovered the problem why it wont fire up i did compression test did it twice...

i took out all the injectors and then i went one by one and here is what i got

starting at
#1 - 300
#2 - 50
#3 - 15
#4 - 175

and all these chambers should be at like 400 psi right??

now lets brain storm and figure out what i did wrong lol im thinking maybe i didnt torque the head gasket down or maybe when i put on the head the head gasket didnt quite get in the correct position?

my dad was telling me how i could spray some wd40 in the injector holes and then put on the compression test and i think he said if the compression psi reads higher or maybe lower then my rings are bad...

what do you guys think its corona:30 time right now :/

[RabbitJockey]

pour a bit of heavy oil in each hole and re do the test, if the numbers are much higher the rings are bad

[vw-tim]

pour a bit of heavy oil in each hole and re do the test, if the numbers are much higher the rings are bad

i did wd40 the numbers were exactly the same... can i say this is an accurate reading? or is wd40 not good to use for this test??

[RabbitJockey]

wd 40 is alot thinner i'd atleast try motor oil, but gear oil will be best.  regardless with numbers like that you're gonna have to pull the head and see whats going on.

[vw-tim]

so now with the test of the wd40 and the measurments still being the same can i say the the rings are fine then and move on to assuming that my valves need adjustment and or my head gasket is faulty? i have read in my bentley yet about the valve adjustment but what is need to get that spot on?

[ORCoaster]

WD 40 is a wee bit thin for this kind of test.  Oil of any weight would be better but 30w would be great.  Substitute ATF if you have it.  Just need to seal the tiny crack between the two pieces of metal.  

Corona :30 I love it.  I prefer dark porter myself.  And it tastes best with a running engine.  

[vw-tim]

wd 40 is alot thinner i'd atleast try motor oil, but gear oil will be best.  regardless with numbers like that you're gonna have to pull the head and see whats going on.

okay i have some gear oil how much would you say i should put in there? like a tiny bit or a good amount? ha and yeah i figured im gonna have to anyway

now with pulling the head can i just take off the valve cover and then take off the head bolts and pull the head with the intake and exhaust manifolds still on i just dont want to have to take all that stuff off such a PITA lol i could just use my engine hoist and just pull the head up keep everything attached? i dont see why that shouldnt be a problem right?

[ORCoaster]

I would do just as you say.  Unbolt, lift head and play peeka boo with it.

Oh on amount of oil.  say a teaspoon or so  You just need to coat the top of the piston so it runs down the sides.

[vw-tim]

WD 40 is a wee bit thin for this kind of test.  Oil of any weight would be better but 30w would be great.  Substitute ATF if you have it.  Just need to seal the tiny crack between the two pieces of metal.  

Corona :30 I love it.  I prefer dark porter myself.  And it tastes best with a running engine.  

haha i love corona my favorite! once i get this engine running ill have to have dark porter beer then! haha

and so use ATF ill try that and report back!