!979 Rabbit Diesel Need help!

[vw-tim]

Hi my names Tim and i just trying to get my little 1.5L diesel running again! pretty much it cranks but wont fire up i checked the glow plugs they all work! and fuel is getting to the injectors... im thinking there might be air in the lines cuz i see some bubbles coming into the IP but for most part it is bleed will these small air bubbles prevent it from firing up?

also any suggestions on what else to check i was thinking of pulling off the Injectors and seeing if they allowing fuel in the chambers and i was gonna check my timing again. i dont have a IP dial gauge so idk if the IP is in time or not? would that prevent it from starting as well? i was thinking about buying one of these kits...

http://www.hansdieselparts.com/VWDieselTimingBeltToolsandGauge.htm

but i heard never buy anything from Prothe....

so any info would help! oh and also when i turn the key on and then to Start all i get is a clicks... and the starter doesnt engages so ive been just using a wire from the + to the starter to get the thing cranking! what can i do there to fix that problem?

Thank you!!

-Tim

[R.O.R-2.0]

that timing gauge, and his pistons are about the ONLY thing i would buy from him..

[ORCoaster]

Tim,  I see by the number of posts you are new to writing here.  Welcome fellow diesel breather. 

Have you ever timed a diesel before?  They are quite the different animal compared to the electric gas engines that use a timing light to get it right.

Diesels time by measurement.  So look at the sticky links here if you need to know the basics.  Then you need to gather up more than just that dial gauge you put in the back of the pump.  And for nearly a year I didn't have one and still managed to rebuild the IP and had good miles per gallon out of the engine.  Once I got the gauge things went better then bad then real bad.  Another story there.

So alignment is the key and that is done with marks on the top of the injection pump, the Top Dead Center mark on the flywheel and the keeper for the cam lock in the back of the block.  Setting the lock in the injection pump should show you a mark on the pulley that lines up with a mark on the bracket that holds the pump.  They are small and can be hard to see unless all is cleaned and once you find them paint them white or red or orange to see them forever more.

Getting the timing to set correctly is a bit of a trick because the part of the system that needs to be able to turn freely when you tighten the timing belt tension adjuster is the cam pulley.  You need to have that freed before you start trying to tighten the belt but after you have the IP and Cam locked.  Hints all over this site how to get it lose with out breaking it apart. 

Get a Bentley manual and study it, Check the local library for a copy or some of the other repair manuals for this type of engine.  I had good luck doing that but decided if I was going to turn wrenches on my car I best have the proper guide at hand.  Can't drive to the library with a broken car now can you?

Good luck on the basic timing and remember pull the pump towards the front of the car to retard the timing and push it at the engine to increase the timing.  Just don't forget to loosen the nuts on the back of the pump on the injection lines or you will have trouble doing either the push or pull and you will run the risk of breaking the lines delivering fuel to the injectors.  Tighten after the pump is tight.  Then roll the engine over by hand a few times and see if it hangs up on a valve or spins free as a bird.

Later DAS

[vw-tim]

Tim,  I see by the number of posts you are new to writing here.  Welcome fellow diesel breather. 

Have you ever timed a diesel before?  They are quite the different animal compared to the electric gas engines that use a timing light to get it right.

Diesels time by measurement.  So look at the sticky links here if you need to know the basics.  Then you need to gather up more than just that dial gauge you put in the back of the pump.  And for nearly a year I didn't have one and still managed to rebuild the IP and had good miles per gallon out of the engine.  Once I got the gauge things went better then bad then real bad.  Another story there.

So alignment is the key and that is done with marks on the top of the injection pump, the Top Dead Center mark on the flywheel and the keeper for the cam lock in the back of the block.  Setting the lock in the injection pump should show you a mark on the pulley that lines up with a mark on the bracket that holds the pump.  They are small and can be hard to see unless all is cleaned and once you find them paint them white or red or orange to see them forever more.

Getting the timing to set correctly is a bit of a trick because the part of the system that needs to be able to turn freely when you tighten the timing belt tension adjuster is the cam pulley.  You need to have that freed before you start trying to tighten the belt but after you have the IP and Cam locked.  Hints all over this site how to get it lose with out breaking it apart. 

Get a Bentley manual and study it, Check the local library for a copy or some of the other repair manuals for this type of engine.  I had good luck doing that but decided if I was going to turn wrenches on my car I best have the proper guide at hand.  Can't drive to the library with a broken car now can you?

Good luck on the basic timing and remember pull the pump towards the front of the car to retard the timing and push it at the engine to increase the timing.  Just don't forget to loosen the nuts on the back of the pump on the injection lines or you will have trouble doing either the push or pull and you will run the risk of breaking the lines delivering fuel to the injectors.  Tighten after the pump is tight.  Then roll the engine over by hand a few times and see if it hangs up on a valve or spins free as a bird.

Later DAS

good info man! thank you i apprecaite it and yeah i do have a bentley on order! and i have attempted to do the timing i think i got it pretty close on im gonna try it again but maybe the timing for ip is off reason why my engine wont fire up?

and how did you time the IP with out a gauge i understand adjusting the ip to and from the engine but how does that make timing different? i guess maybe i should just go out and try and re time the engine again!

heres my little step by step on timing if anyone can please add in any more info would be great...

first off move the crank to the TDC on the fly wheel the 0 i want to say it is... or the V mark... and then you take off the tension on the belt with the belt off the cam sproket move that to the TDC mark and then move the IP sproket to the TDC mark and then lock the cam and IP and just try and put the belt back on the sprockets?

or i was thinking sense it seems like i can get the belt on the sprockets but when i go to tension the belt it moves my fly wheel to not be tdc? what am i doing wrong ha

[ORCoaster]

heres my little step by step on timing if anyone can please add in any more info would be great...

first off move the crank to the TDC on the fly wheel the 0 i want to say it is... or the V mark... I would say yes as a step #1.

and then you take off the tension on the belt Not a good step #2

Remove the Valve Cover and determine if the two lobes of the first cylinder are pointed in the up position and then insert the cam lock on the back of the cam.

#3 insert the IP pin or what ever you have that will lock it in place with little to no movement.  The index mark should align witht the pulley mark at this point, clean it off and verify if it does. 

#4  Loosen the nut on the Cam pulley, a few threads past the pulley face but don't remove it totally.  Using a drift or sharp rap to the backside of the pulley near the center of the camshaft.  It should pop off and remain on the shaft. 

#5  Now loosen the belt tensioner but don't slide the belt off the cam, and the IP.  Nothing should be moving here but the crank can and will move as the belt gets bounced about. 


with the belt off the cam sproket move that to the TDC mark and then move the IP sproket to the TDC mark and then lock the cam and IP and just try and put the belt back on the sprockets?

#6 Once you have the belt loose you can loosen the IP with the nut on the front and the three in the back,  One is way down low.  Loosen the nuts on the lines to the injector as well,  Just a little don't remove.

#7 Moving the outside of the pump around the stationary center of the the pump changes when the TDC will be reached and that is how the timing changes.  The dial gauge will tell you how many millimeters of travel it takes to get to that TDC point. Move the pump in the direction you want the timing to go- advance or retard.  Then lock down the pump and lines again.

#8 inserting the gauge once it is all put back together will allow you to measure that distance.  So retension  the belt but pay attention to the direction you move the tensioner itself.  If you bring it up from the bottom it moves the crank one way and from the top the other so play with that to see how it works.  Double triple check that the V is on the pointer when you are done with the adjustment.  Belt should be able to twist between you finger and thumb at a 45 degree angle when you grab it between the IP and the Cam pulley. 

#9  Tighten the cam nut and remove the keepers on the IP and the cam itself. 

#10  Roll the engine over a few times by hand, I use the crank nut and run it the direction of the belt rotation if it comes up hard like metal on metal you are off time, big time.  Your valve is hitting the piston.  Back to square one.  Redo. 

Try a start.


or i was thinking sense it seems like i can get the belt on the sprockets but when i go to tension the belt it moves my fly wheel to not be tdc? what am i doing wrong ha    See above

[libbydiesel]

If the crank moves either direction when you go to tension the belt, then you are not doing it right.  If the PROPER order is taken, then tensioning the tensioner will NOT move the crank at all. 

With belt around all the sprockets, cam sprocket loosened from the shaft, the cam bolt snugged up (but not so tight that the sprocket can't turn independent of the cam), cam lock in place and the pump lock pin OUT, rotate the crank counter-clockwise a few degrees and then back to TDC without going past.  Because of the resistance of the injection pump and cam sprocket, this little step moves ALL of the belt slack to the tensioner area.  With all of the slack in the tensioner area, then tensioning the belt does not induce the crank to move.

[ORCoaster]

Thanks Libby,  I knew of the trick just ran out of time trying to figure out how to say it. 

[theman53]

With your method libby, do you put the IP holder back in AFTER you reach TDC and before tensioning, right?

[libbydiesel]

Nope.  To achieve proper belt tension, you should not have anything pinned/locked.  The IP pin only goes in while loosening/torquing the sprocket and to install the belt onto the correct teeth. 

[theman53]

Good to know. I don't know if that is how I do it or not. I always seem to be adjusting the IP when doing a belt and this would make sense as to why, so maybe I do...I do not remember.
So you roll it up to TDC and not lock the IP to do the dial indicator either, you just go by cam and crank position as that is what the IP should be timed to anyway? I have always put it in to use the dial indicator, but that probably is wrong now that I think about it.

[vw-tim]

okay so im gonna go do the timing like you said on the IP i have two locking holes on the sproket which one do i use? is this the correct hole?



or should i be using the other hole?

and on the top these two marks on the bracket mean TDC for the IP?



and also when i have TDC on everything and i go to Tension the belt how tight should it be on there? with how its on there now its pretty tight.. should it be alittle loose or no?

and i really appreciate all the help im getting on this! you guys are awesome! Im Learning a lot!

also when i go to crank the car i notice white smoke coming out the exhaust when cranking does this mean anything??

[libbydiesel]

If you look on the injection pump side of the sprocket, there should be a mark on the edge of the teeth.  That mark should align with the mark on the pump and the pump bracket when the crank TDC mark is aligned and the locking bar is in place on the back of the cam.  The marks for aligning the pump to the bracket are just for getting the belt on the correct tooth of the injection pump sprocket.  Once that is accomplished, fine timing of the injection pump using a dial indicator or much better yet a pulse adapter and strobe still needs to be done. 

[vw-tim]

where can i get a dial indicator for the IP to time it? and whats a strobe thing?

[libbydiesel]

Dial indicators are available many places.  I think the FAQ may even have a thread on getting quality ones inexpensively. 

The diesel pulse adapter has a small piezo pickup that clamps to the injector line and senses the actual pulse of the diesel fuel in the injector line.  The adapter then transforms that signal into a typical gasser spark plug wire pulse so you can use a gasser inductive strobe timing light and read off the flywheel.  It is much faster and far more accurate than a dial indicator because it reads the actual start of injection which takes into account variations in pump wear and injector opening pressure.  You can also see if the dynamic advance is working.  The downside is the expense.  My timing light has rpm and advance also, so I can use the pulse adapter to calibrate diesel tachometers and the advance function which is very useful as well.

[vw-tim]

Dial indicators are available many places.  I think the FAQ may even have a thread on getting quality ones inexpensively. 

The diesel pulse adapter has a small piezo pickup that clamps to the injector line and senses the actual pulse of the diesel fuel in the injector line.  The adapter then transforms that signal into a typical gasser spark plug wire pulse so you can use a gasser inductive strobe timing light and read off the flywheel.  It is much faster and far more accurate than a dial indicator because it reads the actual start of injection which takes into account variations in pump wear and injector opening pressure.  You can also see if the dynamic advance is working.  The downside is the expense.  My timing light has rpm and advance also, so I can use the pulse adapter to calibrate diesel tachometers and the advance function which is very useful as well.

oh okay hmm good info ill look into dial indicators cuz i cant afford real expensive stuff right now ha