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Author Topic: The plastic bottle hone and cognitive thrift vs cheapness discussion  (Read 14628 times)

Reply #30February 27, 2012, 03:23:55 am

745 turbogreasel

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2012, 03:23:55 am »
Total cost for two visits to the engine about $70 [/color]
I can't see how $70 got enough parts andthe  beer to carry you through all that wrist twisting :P
I'd also not be surprised to find a plastic bottle just as consistent as a dingle hole, if not more so.
Neither a dingle nor a flappy-stone  is going to do jack for concentricity of the bore anyway.

Reply #31February 27, 2012, 07:35:06 am

theman53

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2012, 07:35:06 am »
maxfax
         Sounds like he had one too many beer and it clouded his judgement  ;)

I have pretty good aim but any vehicle I will piss in the radiator of I am not concerned about getting that close so I don't spill a drop

Reply #32February 27, 2012, 07:36:32 am

Mark(The Miser)UK

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cognitive thrift vs cheapness discussion
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2012, 07:36:32 am »
Quote
I have dumped beer and piss into a radiator of my Bronco

I could tell you one heck of a horror story about doing that..  The guy cracked the cap and went to put the piss directly in the radiator from the source..   He should have waited till it cooled down more...  :o
Can't be as horrific as peeing in the Amazon and having something swim up the 'stream'  and lock on to your 'J-T' ;D

I'd just like to thank those who are giving their support. I also thank those who don't, as progress,  new inovation etc etc doesn't take place otherwise.
What I demonstrated here, is simply what can be achieved with little money.
I felt it completely harmless.
I only do about 10000 miles a year, and since the rebuild, mileage on a long run nestles just under 60mpg [imp].

Economy used to get stuck at 45 to 48mpg. Remember 7 out of 12 rings were stuck in, yet it would still run, with legal smoke levels!
Most of my trips are 2 miles or so, so not the best treatment for an engine that loves going at 70 to 80mph.

It has always done better than the official vw handbook mpg for town, which for the waggon is only 40, and I never get under 45, and 43mpg before rebuild. Here is a pic of the piston rings on the piston as removed from engine...


Clearly my engine has benefitted from my work upon it. It is also apparent that it has mainly cost time. The job had to be done, as I was starting to flatten the battery on occasion and as it turns out, not having to send stuff away for reboring, or waiting for parts to come saved a lot of time.

Just reading through this forum reveals that there are plenty of cases where people have gone down the 'expensive & correct' route renewing big chunks of their engine only to come up against some error, either self induced, or purely bad luck.

In answer to my own question about my poor work practice, I can reveal what I think will happen...
As I was merely deglazing+, and not reaming the bores, the only stuff that can float into the exhaust port of the turbo is smaller than the periodic pieces of carbon that likely drop onto the vanes when running engine naturally.
In this instance, the grit will be blown out of the turbo.
Any grit entering the water supply will find the lowest point in the block and stay there.

Anything in the oil returns will again end up safe  in the viscous film in the sump.
Placing a piece of grit into a delivery valve can only go one way, which is out into the injector and will either fire straight out, or will lodge on the sealing face and almost immediately be crushed.
Don't believe, me? Then try dropping a hammer onto a diamond ;D

Be aware of your environment and cover up if appropriate.

 Dropping anything bigger into any orifice is negligence, and should be fished out...
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 09:48:14 am by Mark(The Miser)UK »
Mark-The-Miser-UK

"There's nothing like driving past a bonfire and then realising; its my car on fire!"

I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee: drive a Quantum TD
 ...The best work-horse after the cart...

Reply #33February 27, 2012, 09:33:34 am

rs899

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2012, 09:33:34 am »
Rock on Mark-

I'm all ears.  I reringed my $125 Jetta in the car with a solid stone hone that I already had.  I don't think I would have been as inventive as you with the Coke bottle, but I sympathize.  BTW, the car is just fine after 25K miles- burns no detectable amount of oil.

I would really like some discussion of DIY head work.  I have several heads that I have planed myself, but I would really like to insert valve guides by myself if possible.  After that, if successful, I am confused as to whether a simple hand grind would be sufficient or would I need to pop for a "three angle valve grind" that the machinists want to stick you for....

Rick (another cheap guy)
'91 Jetta 1.6 NA, '82 Caddy 1.6NA, '81 Cabriolet,  4 Mercedes OM616/617s , 2 Triumphs and a Citroen DS19 in a pear tree.

Reply #34February 27, 2012, 10:13:52 am

R.O.R-2.0

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2012, 10:13:52 am »
Quote
I have dumped beer and piss into a radiator of my Bronco

I could tell you one heck of a horror story about doing that..  The guy cracked the cap and went to put the piss directly in the radiator from the source..   He should have waited till it cooled down more...  :o

omfg... thoughts of scalding pain just shot thru my mind.. (one of them atleast!)
92 Jetta GLI - Black, 1.6D w/ GT2056V turbo..
86 GTI - 4 Door, Med Twilight Gray, Tow Machine..
86 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red, All Stock.. WRECKED.
89 Toyota 4Runner - Dark Grey Metallic, LIFTED!

Turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.

Reply #35February 27, 2012, 04:38:32 pm

carrizog60

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2012, 04:38:32 pm »
if it works...why not?
not all of us have the money or dont like to get theys finger nails dirty so all aproaches are valid if the end result is good enough for the one that is going to live with it...
vw golf gti G60--vw passat 1.9td gt2052v
yamaha vmax 1200- yamaha tdm 850
Portugal

Reply #36February 27, 2012, 05:12:37 pm

madmedix

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2012, 05:12:37 pm »
I too can't figure out the tangents taken to justify their negative posts...as if to qualify their argument that what Mark is doing is wrong. I own a lot of tools too; from specialty outboard marine tools to my encased in foam and loved dearly vw pieces.
I'm going to come from the direction of: "I'm going to do it Mark's way just because: I want to learn. For the hell of it. I want the experience. I want to feel at one with the block  ;D". At the end of the day; we're all wrenching on our cars b/c we like/love it and the knowledge we gain from it. Doing things Mark's way may not be for you; but imagine the knowledge he's gained doing this stuff.

I say "Bravo!", Mark.

Cheers,
Andy
'90 TD Jetta

Reply #37February 27, 2012, 08:36:38 pm

Mark(The Miser)UK

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cognitive thrift vs cheapness discussion
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2012, 08:36:38 pm »
Thanks for the +ve comments. Not easy to come by as a Limey on a Yankee forum, especially as some think I killed Jesus, or was it I pushed Eraser-Thread...

OK so English humour doesn't swim across the pond very well...

Back to the bottle...
The hardest part was finding a bottle the right size. Well it took about 5 bottles to find one. It was quite a snug fit. Cap on, and squeezing the 'handle' put enough pressure on, that the paper was giving giving out by the end of the job, so no heatshield trick on this one  ;D
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 09:49:02 am by Mark(The Miser)UK »
Mark-The-Miser-UK

"There's nothing like driving past a bonfire and then realising; its my car on fire!"

I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee: drive a Quantum TD
 ...The best work-horse after the cart...

Reply #38February 28, 2012, 12:43:19 am

maxfax

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2012, 12:43:19 am »
Maybe we all need to have a look at this.. Pure ingenuity...
http://www.wliw.org/productions/travel/classic-american-cars-of-cuba/342/

Reply #39February 28, 2012, 08:11:06 am

theman53

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2012, 08:11:06 am »
That is an example of where making everything to do a job makes sense...they cannot obtain it.

Reply #40February 29, 2012, 01:01:08 am

belchfire

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2012, 01:01:08 am »
I think that the division is in what you consider your vehicle to be. A bicycle is basic transportation. So is a Ferrari. If my goal is to simply to get from A to B then it makes little sense to spend any more time and money than absolutely necessary to accomplish it. Some people (and I'll wager that most members of this forum) see their machines as extensions of themselves and representations of how they view themselves.
I could never resist the siren call of a more efficient process and own nothing that is stock. I have been interested in alternative fuels since the 80's and 10 years ago started researching bio-diesel and SVO. The VW seemed to be an inexpensive and available powerplant to experiment with. After trashing my Aspire by hauling everything in it, the Caddy was the ideal vehicle. The VW diesel has one of the worst reputations out there. I have driven slow vehicles in the past and it's no fun having your doors kicked by smart ass teenagers as they fly by on their mo-peds. With a turbo and a few mods I can smoke many a loser-cruiser. I can also do it while getting almost 100 (effective) diesel MPG.
  Fixing your ride when you're stuck out in nowhere or if you're dead broke takes genuine ingenuity. I can respect that. Done it myself many times. (piece of rope for a fan belt) But here's the tricky part. Just because you can do it doesn't mean that you should do it. If the means exists to do something right but the home made approach is still taken then it starts to smell a lot like cheap. There are a lot of videos on you-tube about red-neck repair and they say a lot about the mindset of the mechanics. I have built my own engine hoist, band saw, 60 ton hydraulic press, 17' bridge crane and just finished a combo wood chipper-hammer mill. I did the best I could with what I had to make things that I could never afford otherwise. I learned the hard way to do the job right the first time as repairing the repair wastes a lot of time and at my age that's a precious commodity. Had I known that this project would cost me 10 grand at the beginning, I would have just welded a pick-up box on the Aspire and spent the money on gas. But that's the nature of invention and the sirens still call.
The Owl of Minerva flies at dusk
'81 rabbit pick up  1.6 turbo diesel  SVO

Reply #41February 29, 2012, 07:58:19 am

Mark(The Miser)UK

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cognitive thrift vs cheapness discussion
« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2012, 07:58:19 am »
Mr Belch,
I can see what you are saying. Clearly you have also dipped into experimentation, make-doing, etc. I understand the call to do something correctly especially if you/we have the tools/parts to hand.

However, what I did, I had thought about, and I then made a 'judgement'.
 I couldn't truely know how successful it would be, but I decided I had nothing to loose other than time. As it turns out, it seems to have been a pretty good result.

If it turned out like these reringing jobs some members have experienced, and reported here, and drank more oil than it did before [unlikely for me with much closer ring gaps], then nothing would have broken, all the bore still intact for a deep hone or rebore and I would have been a little wiser.

When I looked for rings, over here they were something like £400 a full set of OEM. Over in the US there were different brands available, some in the $100's, but IIRC these GRANT rings were dropped down from those prices to a mere $22 for four pistons worth.
Thus I bought 3 sets because had to pay $56 p&p. I had intended to sell the other 2 sets to pay for the job. I also bought some big end bearings, some small end bearings and some crank bearings.
In the end this old engine needed none of them, so they are stashed away in reserve.

What if  my hone, perhaps improved slightly, turns out to give consistantly better results than doing the job with the 'correct' tool. The correct tool being in itself a compromise, recommended to satisfy a need, due to it's degree of universality, having to work over a range of diameters; whilst my tool does only one size.

The 180 degree twist given by my wrist down then backup can give a pretty good repeatable angle of hone, covering all way round, dropping say 3" in the process dgives  a pretty good repeatable angle.
Rotating bottle and repeating helps any anomalies in my glueing the abrasive on.
 
Using my other hand gives the cross hatch effect.

I'm sure it is quite hard to use a drill and move up and down at the correct rate.

 Could I improve it? Well always... How about covering the bottle with glue and dipping it into grit/sand/abrasive.



« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 09:49:41 am by Mark(The Miser)UK »
Mark-The-Miser-UK

"There's nothing like driving past a bonfire and then realising; its my car on fire!"

I'm not here to help... I'm here to Pro-Volke"

Be like meeee: drive a Quantum TD
 ...The best work-horse after the cart...

Reply #42March 01, 2012, 02:44:19 pm

belchfire

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2012, 02:44:19 pm »
Pull up the pants leg you can't save the shoe.  Now we're making our own sand paper? Good lord. Why not just tie a rock to a stick? Just take the bus friend. I try to not be insulting but WOW!
The Owl of Minerva flies at dusk
'81 rabbit pick up  1.6 turbo diesel  SVO

Reply #43March 01, 2012, 05:50:55 pm

smutts

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2012, 05:50:55 pm »
I think the word was............... "Judgement"

Why not use a rock if it works? I had to use one once with a bootlace tied to it to fix a broken throttle spring once.Well it probably won't work for honing journals, but whatever it takes.
But I would prefer a genius to work on my engine with a hammer than the usual mouth breather you get at the dealers with all the tools.
But why go to all the expense of a used bottle? When the rings finally die in mine I was just going to use a sheet of 120grit wet and dry with my hand.
But I'm still pondering on the best grit to get nice deep scratches to hold oil without killing the smooth running surface.

Keep up the good work. ;D

Reply #44March 01, 2012, 09:26:09 pm

belchfire

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Re: The plastic bottle hone and cheapness discussion
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2012, 09:26:09 pm »
I always thought that the cross hatch pattern was to facilitate a "honing" between the rings and cylinder wall so that there would be a match of surfaces. 30* for street engines and 45* for race. The theory was 45* will wear in faster and seat more quickly. Unfortunately, it will also wear out faster hence the 30* for street engines. Every oil holding scratch is a potential compression leak. Oil holding capabilities are enhanced by knurling the piston skirts which will not wear as much as the friction between it and the wall is less than the ring & wall.
The Owl of Minerva flies at dusk
'81 rabbit pick up  1.6 turbo diesel  SVO

 

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